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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM (459,304 Views)
Wolf Eagle
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Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus
Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons).

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Edited by Taipan, Apr 24 2015, 10:10 PM.
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Black Ice
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Drom King
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Fragillimus335
Dec 25 2012, 02:56 PM
Steg's plates were probably not primarily developed for thermoregulation, and neither was Spino's crest. I suspect both were primarily for display, with muscular attachment as a bonus for Spinosaurus.
And where would the muscular attachments be if it were used for display? Even if it did get that as a bonus it would be mediocre at best.
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Black Ice
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Sorry verdugo, but I came across this size comparison and at the upper weights it's pretty clear spino would win. I didn't realize how much of a size difference spino had at higher weights....though I still can't think of a way in which spino would kill t.rex....... I'll say it wins from a quick scuffle.
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SpinoInWonderland
The madness has come back...
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dinosaur
Dec 25 2012, 12:41 PM
brolyeuphyfusion
Dec 24 2012, 04:10 PM
dinosaur
Dec 24 2012, 02:47 PM
Maybe Tyrannosaurus is not a supernatural creature for you brolyeuphyfusion. :unsure:
Tyrannosaurus is not a supernatural creature, that is fact, don't deny it, Tyrannosaurus is only a normal animal

You always set up the Tyrannosaurus as the dinosaurian version of superman when in reality, it has limitations and certainly cannot take on every other land animal unlike what you think
I don't think so. ;) Rexy is trong enough.
Strong compared to many other theropods, but still surpassed by some others, and surpassed by a lot of sauropods, and surpassed by the ornithischians Triceratops, Eotriceratops, Huaxiaosaurus, Shantungosaurus, Ceratopsipes, and Magnapaulia...

in terms of strength...
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Verdugo
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bone crusher
Dec 25 2012, 10:52 AM
Against a 17m Spino, I can see T Rex UCMP 137538 be the only theropod up for the task. The size discrepancy is just too big for the rest.
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A 17m Spino still has smaller ilium than T rex rolleyes , T rex is truly a very massive built animal

Anyway, does anyone here know the date for that Spino skeleton ? And where does it come from ? It seems to be quite widely used.
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MysteryMeat
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bone crusher
Dec 25 2012, 10:52 AM
Against a 17m Spino, I can see T Rex UCMP 137538 be the only theropod up for the task. The size discrepancy is just too big for the rest.
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That Spino has 8 cervicals, 15 dorsals, and 6 sacrals. Inaccurate drawing.
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SpinoInWonderland
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MysteryMeat
Dec 25 2012, 04:17 PM
bone crusher
Dec 25 2012, 10:52 AM
Against a 17m Spino, I can see T Rex UCMP 137538 be the only theropod up for the task. The size discrepancy is just too big for the rest.
Posted Image
That Spino has 8 cervicals, 15 dorsals, and 6 sacrals. Inaccurate drawing.
We have no idea of how many cervicals/sacrals/dorsals Spinosaurus has
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Verdugo
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Black Ice
Dec 25 2012, 03:08 PM
Sorry verdugo, but I came across this size comparison and at the upper weights it's pretty clear spino would win. I didn't realize how much of a size difference spino had at higher weights....though I still can't think of a way in which spino would kill t.rex....... I'll say it wins from a quick scuffle.
Why did you need to say sorry ??. Spino would never be that big actually, day by day, more and more scientists reject the "18m 20t ultra Spinosaurus", and trust me, you CANNOT find a single scientist accept that 18m Spinosaurus by now. Dave Hone even stated that "Spino size is just a MYTH" while Andrea Cau stated "17m is absolutely unreasonable".

A 12m T rex would definitely beat a 14-16m Spinosaurus. I'm awaiting for the 2013 paper describing on Spino, i'm quite sure that Spinosaurus size would be debunked, sooner or later. T rex used to be a14m monster, Saurophaganax used to be a 14m monster, Carcharodontosaurus and Giganotosaurus used to be a 15m monster, the ultra monster 17+m Spino would be history, it is just a matter of time
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SpinoInWonderland
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Verdugo
Dec 25 2012, 04:24 PM
Black Ice
Dec 25 2012, 03:08 PM
Sorry verdugo, but I came across this size comparison and at the upper weights it's pretty clear spino would win. I didn't realize how much of a size difference spino had at higher weights....though I still can't think of a way in which spino would kill t.rex....... I'll say it wins from a quick scuffle.
Why did you need to say sorry ??. Spino would never be that big actually, day by day, more and more scientists reject the "18m 20t ultra Spinosaurus", and trust me, you CANNOT find a single scientist accept that 18m Spinosaurus by now. Dave Hone even stated that "Spino size is just a MYTH" while Andrea Cau stated "17m is absolutely unreasonable".

A 12m T rex would definitely beat a 14-16m Spinosaurus. I'm awaiting for the 2013 paper describing on Spino, i'm quite sure that Spinosaurus size would be debunked, sooner or later. T rex used to be a14m monster, Saurophaganax used to be a 14m monster, Carcharodontosaurus and Giganotosaurus used to be a 15m monster, the ultra monster 17+m Spino would be history, it is just a matter of time
Again, more conservative estimates does NOT debunk higher ones unless the higher one is physically impossible, and the head:body ratios of related taxa support a 16-18 meter Spinosaurus

Cau said that 17 meters for Spinosaurus was based on proportioning it like a tyrannosaurid, that's nonsense. 17 meters for Spinosaurus was based on proportioning it like Baryonyx/Suchomimus!

That leaves Dave Hone alone in his statement, and so far nothing to support it, Dal Sasso' length estimate is, again, supported by proportions of related taxa, and if you try to site Greg Paul, he has a 14-meter Spinosaurus at a mass of 10 tonnes!
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MysteryMeat
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brolyeuphyfusion
Dec 25 2012, 04:19 PM
We have no idea of how many cervicals/sacrals/dorsals Spinosaurus has
Yes we do. Basal tetanuraes all have 10 cervicals, 13 dorsals, and 5 sacrals. Why would Spino be different?
How do you think people estimate length? Arbitrarily like you do?
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SpinoInWonderland
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MysteryMeat
Dec 25 2012, 04:38 PM
How do you think people estimate length? Arbitrarily like you do?
I think length is estimated as the length of the dinosaur in a neutral pose, and in the case of dinosaurs with vertically-placed necks I think it is estimated as the length with their necks in a horizontal position
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SpinoInWonderland
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MysteryMeat
Dec 25 2012, 04:38 PM
brolyeuphyfusion
Dec 25 2012, 04:19 PM
We have no idea of how many cervicals/sacrals/dorsals Spinosaurus has
Yes we do. Basal tetanuraes all have 10 cervicals, 13 dorsals, and 5 sacrals
I did not know that all basal tetanurans had the same number of cervicals/dorsals/sacrals, since I know that vertebra number can vary even among related animals, but thanks for the info anyway
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MysteryMeat
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brolyeuphyfusion
Dec 25 2012, 04:44 PM
MysteryMeat
Dec 25 2012, 04:38 PM
brolyeuphyfusion
Dec 25 2012, 04:19 PM
We have no idea of how many cervicals/sacrals/dorsals Spinosaurus has
Yes we do. Basal tetanuraes all have 10 cervicals, 13 dorsals, and 5 sacrals
I did not know that all basal tetanurans had the same number of cervicals/dorsals/sacrals, since I know that vertebra number can vary even among related animals, but thanks for the info anyway
As far as I know it's 10-13-5; read it in The Dinosauria. Pre-sacral numbers mostly stay the same at 28 until you get into more derived coelurosaurs.
Also Sereno did present a reconstruction of 8-16-5. Perhaps that's what the drawing is based on.
In later reconstruction from Hartman, it's all 10-13-5
Edited by MysteryMeat, Dec 25 2012, 05:04 PM.
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theropod
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bone crusher
Dec 25 2012, 10:09 AM
theropod
Dec 24 2012, 08:18 PM
bone crusher
Dec 24 2012, 11:02 AM
theropod
Dec 24 2012, 06:28 AM
I continue to reject it because:

A: it seems to bulky for me personally
B: several scientists reject it as well
C: this metod gave far higher figures than others and we are not accounting for this in other theropods
D: it reconstructs T. rex with an awful lot of tissue below the torso. No serious paleoartist would ever think of reconstructing the animal like that, it is a freakin´ sausage with legs!

If T. rex is 9,5t, Giganotosaurus or Carcharodontosaurus are even heavier because that would mean all estimates where generally too low. However it seems far too bulky for any active bipedal predator, the portrayed animal could barely walk let alone run.
So you're saying as long as giga or carchy is heavier, you would then happily embrace this method am I right? But for now you're simply clinging on your personal preference and ignoring and rejecting everything we say even against the logic.

Giga and Carchy are similar length to T Rex yet slimmer in built, how can you be so sure they should be heavier? A bulkier and heavily built skeleton like Sue would obviously pack on more tissue than giga assuming we're adding them at the same rate. Anyway everyone else with any sense of logic and common sense should realize that by now bar broly. You can believe in whatever you want though.


No, I wouldn´t happily embrace it at all, unless it is proven that the results are also higher if no additional tissue is added. However you cannot use it and compare it to the normal estimates for these other theropods. Giganotosaurus and carcharodontosaurus are 1-2m longer than T. rex, and just about any estimate puts them at a higher weight. The only way they aren´t is if you use the metod that exagerates the body mass for T. rex but do not apply it to them, thus I conclude if using the same metod these animals would be heavier.
Now you're just spilling BS, giga was 12.2m according to the latest data while Sue was 12.3m, where the hell did a 1-2m longer specimen come from? What do you mean just about any estimate? Giga is about the weight of an average T Rex, so if we also apply the 3d method on the holotype it would probably be 8 -8.5 tons roughly the same as Stan but still lighter than Sue.
You really sound like you're desperate for giga or carchy to be heavier for some reason.
The difference is that I think the giganotosaurus holotype was more likely 13m, thath would make the paratype 14m. it's you :-) who desperately wants T.rex to be bigger, not the other way around
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theropod
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brolyeuphyfusion
Dec 25 2012, 04:33 PM
Verdugo
Dec 25 2012, 04:24 PM
Black Ice
Dec 25 2012, 03:08 PM
Sorry verdugo, but I came across this size comparison and at the upper weights it's pretty clear spino would win. I didn't realize how much of a size difference spino had at higher weights....though I still can't think of a way in which spino would kill t.rex....... I'll say it wins from a quick scuffle.
Why did you need to say sorry ??. Spino would never be that big actually, day by day, more and more scientists reject the "18m 20t ultra Spinosaurus", and trust me, you CANNOT find a single scientist accept that 18m Spinosaurus by now. Dave Hone even stated that "Spino size is just a MYTH" while Andrea Cau stated "17m is absolutely unreasonable".

A 12m T rex would definitely beat a 14-16m Spinosaurus. I'm awaiting for the 2013 paper describing on Spino, i'm quite sure that Spinosaurus size would be debunked, sooner or later. T rex used to be a14m monster, Saurophaganax used to be a 14m monster, Carcharodontosaurus and Giganotosaurus used to be a 15m monster, the ultra monster 17+m Spino would be history, it is just a matter of time
Again, more conservative estimates does NOT debunk higher ones unless the higher one is physically impossible, and the head:body ratios of related taxa support a 16-18 meter Spinosaurus

Cau said that 17 meters for Spinosaurus was based on proportioning it like a tyrannosaurid, that's nonsense. 17 meters for Spinosaurus was based on proportioning it like Baryonyx/Suchomimus!

That leaves Dave Hone alone in his statement, and so far nothing to support it, Dal Sasso' length estimate is, again, supported by proportions of related taxa, and if you try to site Greg Paul, he has a 14-meter Spinosaurus at a mass of 10 tonnes!
It is downright naive to say that with the obvious fact that its relatives still suggest dal sassos figure
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theropod
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Verdugo
Dec 25 2012, 04:14 PM
bone crusher
Dec 25 2012, 10:52 AM
Against a 17m Spino, I can see T Rex UCMP 137538 be the only theropod up for the task. The size discrepancy is just too big for the rest.
Posted Image
A 17m Spino still has smaller ilium than T rex rolleyes , T rex is truly a very massive built animal

Anyway, does anyone here know the date for that Spino skeleton ? And where does it come from ? It seems to be quite widely used.
you mean it was reconstructed like that, that's not the same.
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