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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM (459,303 Views)
Wolf Eagle
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Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus
Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons).

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Edited by Taipan, Apr 24 2015, 10:10 PM.
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SpinoInWonderland
The madness has come back...
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theropod
Dec 25 2012, 06:48 PM
brolyeuphyfusion
Dec 25 2012, 04:33 PM
Verdugo
Dec 25 2012, 04:24 PM
Black Ice
Dec 25 2012, 03:08 PM
Sorry verdugo, but I came across this size comparison and at the upper weights it's pretty clear spino would win. I didn't realize how much of a size difference spino had at higher weights....though I still can't think of a way in which spino would kill t.rex....... I'll say it wins from a quick scuffle.
Why did you need to say sorry ??. Spino would never be that big actually, day by day, more and more scientists reject the "18m 20t ultra Spinosaurus", and trust me, you CANNOT find a single scientist accept that 18m Spinosaurus by now. Dave Hone even stated that "Spino size is just a MYTH" while Andrea Cau stated "17m is absolutely unreasonable".

A 12m T rex would definitely beat a 14-16m Spinosaurus. I'm awaiting for the 2013 paper describing on Spino, i'm quite sure that Spinosaurus size would be debunked, sooner or later. T rex used to be a14m monster, Saurophaganax used to be a 14m monster, Carcharodontosaurus and Giganotosaurus used to be a 15m monster, the ultra monster 17+m Spino would be history, it is just a matter of time
Again, more conservative estimates does NOT debunk higher ones unless the higher one is physically impossible, and the head:body ratios of related taxa support a 16-18 meter Spinosaurus

Cau said that 17 meters for Spinosaurus was based on proportioning it like a tyrannosaurid, that's nonsense. 17 meters for Spinosaurus was based on proportioning it like Baryonyx/Suchomimus!

That leaves Dave Hone alone in his statement, and so far nothing to support it, Dal Sasso' length estimate is, again, supported by proportions of related taxa, and if you try to site Greg Paul, he has a 14-meter Spinosaurus at a mass of 10 tonnes!
It is downright naive to say that with the obvious fact that its relatives still suggest dal sassos figure
Why? The proportions of related animals result in length estimates within the range that Dal Sasso proposed...
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dino-ken
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The problem is the T.rex are drawn to incorrect perportions - the head to body ratio is even less than in Greg Paul's version. And remember now - T.rex is estimated to have had 45 tail vertebrate(which is based on recently described specimens with nearly complete tails) - not the 37 which Greg Paui stated. T.rex should have a skull to body ratio of 8-8.4 to 1 not 7 -7.5 to 1.

As for the UCMP 137538 estimate - it is based on a very fragmentary specimen, and see known T.rex specimens show as good deal of variation in their skeletal perportions. So the estimate of 14.5 meters is doubtful at best.

But then I also believe that Spinosaurus' length is overestimated at 17-18 meters. IMO - the best estimates of Spinosaurus' length are about 14-16 meters, and average of 14.5-15.2 meters.
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theropod
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brolyeuphyfusion
Dec 26 2012, 02:05 AM
theropod
Dec 25 2012, 06:48 PM
brolyeuphyfusion
Dec 25 2012, 04:33 PM
Verdugo
Dec 25 2012, 04:24 PM
Black Ice
Dec 25 2012, 03:08 PM
Sorry verdugo, but I came across this size comparison and at the upper weights it's pretty clear spino would win. I didn't realize how much of a size difference spino had at higher weights....though I still can't think of a way in which spino would kill t.rex....... I'll say it wins from a quick scuffle.
Why did you need to say sorry ??. Spino would never be that big actually, day by day, more and more scientists reject the "18m 20t ultra Spinosaurus", and trust me, you CANNOT find a single scientist accept that 18m Spinosaurus by now. Dave Hone even stated that "Spino size is just a MYTH" while Andrea Cau stated "17m is absolutely unreasonable".

A 12m T rex would definitely beat a 14-16m Spinosaurus. I'm awaiting for the 2013 paper describing on Spino, i'm quite sure that Spinosaurus size would be debunked, sooner or later. T rex used to be a14m monster, Saurophaganax used to be a 14m monster, Carcharodontosaurus and Giganotosaurus used to be a 15m monster, the ultra monster 17+m Spino would be history, it is just a matter of time
Again, more conservative estimates does NOT debunk higher ones unless the higher one is physically impossible, and the head:body ratios of related taxa support a 16-18 meter Spinosaurus

Cau said that 17 meters for Spinosaurus was based on proportioning it like a tyrannosaurid, that's nonsense. 17 meters for Spinosaurus was based on proportioning it like Baryonyx/Suchomimus!

That leaves Dave Hone alone in his statement, and so far nothing to support it, Dal Sasso' length estimate is, again, supported by proportions of related taxa, and if you try to site Greg Paul, he has a 14-meter Spinosaurus at a mass of 10 tonnes!
It is downright naive to say that with the obvious fact that its relatives still suggest dal sassos figure
Why? The proportions of related animals result in length estimates within the range that Dal Sasso proposed...

Sorry, I wanted to adress verdugos post and forgot to delete yours in my quote.

dino-ken
Dec 26 2012, 02:37 AM
The problem is the T.rex are drawn to incorrect perportions - the head to body ratio is even less than in Greg Paul's version. And remember now - T.rex is estimated to have had 45 tail vertebrate(which is based on recently described specimens with nearly complete tails) - not the 37 which Greg Paui stated. T.rex should have a skull to body ratio of 8-8.4 to 1 not 7 -7.5 to 1.

As for the UCMP 137538 estimate - it is based on a very fragmentary specimen, and see known T.rex specimens show as good deal of variation in their skeletal perportions. So the estimate of 14.5 meters is doubtful at best.

But then I also believe that Spinosaurus' length is overestimated at 17-18 meters. IMO - the best estimates of Spinosaurus' length are about 14-16 meters, and average of 14.5-15.2 meters.

The 14-16m would be average, there are only two adult specimens that I know about, MSNM V4047 and MNHN SAM 124, the smaller of which is still ~14m. then again, the holotype is a subadult and already ~14m.
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Fragillimus335
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theropod
Dec 26 2012, 03:56 AM
brolyeuphyfusion
Dec 26 2012, 02:05 AM
theropod
Dec 25 2012, 06:48 PM
brolyeuphyfusion
Dec 25 2012, 04:33 PM
Verdugo
Dec 25 2012, 04:24 PM
Black Ice
Dec 25 2012, 03:08 PM
Sorry verdugo, but I came across this size comparison and at the upper weights it's pretty clear spino would win. I didn't realize how much of a size difference spino had at higher weights....though I still can't think of a way in which spino would kill t.rex....... I'll say it wins from a quick scuffle.
Why did you need to say sorry ??. Spino would never be that big actually, day by day, more and more scientists reject the "18m 20t ultra Spinosaurus", and trust me, you CANNOT find a single scientist accept that 18m Spinosaurus by now. Dave Hone even stated that "Spino size is just a MYTH" while Andrea Cau stated "17m is absolutely unreasonable".

A 12m T rex would definitely beat a 14-16m Spinosaurus. I'm awaiting for the 2013 paper describing on Spino, i'm quite sure that Spinosaurus size would be debunked, sooner or later. T rex used to be a14m monster, Saurophaganax used to be a 14m monster, Carcharodontosaurus and Giganotosaurus used to be a 15m monster, the ultra monster 17+m Spino would be history, it is just a matter of time
Again, more conservative estimates does NOT debunk higher ones unless the higher one is physically impossible, and the head:body ratios of related taxa support a 16-18 meter Spinosaurus

Cau said that 17 meters for Spinosaurus was based on proportioning it like a tyrannosaurid, that's nonsense. 17 meters for Spinosaurus was based on proportioning it like Baryonyx/Suchomimus!

That leaves Dave Hone alone in his statement, and so far nothing to support it, Dal Sasso' length estimate is, again, supported by proportions of related taxa, and if you try to site Greg Paul, he has a 14-meter Spinosaurus at a mass of 10 tonnes!
It is downright naive to say that with the obvious fact that its relatives still suggest dal sassos figure
Why? The proportions of related animals result in length estimates within the range that Dal Sasso proposed...

Sorry, I wanted to adress verdugos post and forgot to delete yours in my quote.

dino-ken
Dec 26 2012, 02:37 AM
The problem is the T.rex are drawn to incorrect perportions - the head to body ratio is even less than in Greg Paul's version. And remember now - T.rex is estimated to have had 45 tail vertebrate(which is based on recently described specimens with nearly complete tails) - not the 37 which Greg Paui stated. T.rex should have a skull to body ratio of 8-8.4 to 1 not 7 -7.5 to 1.

As for the UCMP 137538 estimate - it is based on a very fragmentary specimen, and see known T.rex specimens show as good deal of variation in their skeletal perportions. So the estimate of 14.5 meters is doubtful at best.

But then I also believe that Spinosaurus' length is overestimated at 17-18 meters. IMO - the best estimates of Spinosaurus' length are about 14-16 meters, and average of 14.5-15.2 meters.

The 14-16m would be average, there are only two adult specimens that I know about, MSNM V4047 and MNHN SAM 124, the smaller of which is still ~14m. then again, the holotype is a subadult and already ~14m.
SAM 124 may be a different species, or a juvie itself, it is just too fragmentary to tell..:(
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theropod
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I didn´t check, I just read what Mortimer wrote about it. Isn´t it funny anyway how people always assume the average size to be generally lower without even checking how large the sample size is? I encountered similar problems with Megalania. Many people seem to believe one sees the max size and without knowing about the number and size of specimens one could conclude about the average just from guess, while average is not generally below max size for a fixed percentage, neither are max sizes comparable among animals with different sample size.
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dinosaur
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Verdugo
Dec 25 2012, 04:14 PM
bone crusher
Dec 25 2012, 10:52 AM
Against a 17m Spino, I can see T Rex UCMP 137538 be the only theropod up for the task. The size discrepancy is just too big for the rest.
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A 17m Spino still has smaller ilium than T rex rolleyes , T rex is truly a very massive built animal

Anyway, does anyone here know the date for that Spino skeleton ? And where does it come from ? It seems to be quite widely used.
Just look at the size of the snout and head of Tyrannosaurus!  :o That should be a very useful weapon.
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7Alx
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brolyeuphyfusion
Dec 23 2012, 02:25 PM
The evidence is the proportions of related spinosaurids, they all follow a head:body ratio close to or at 1:10[/color]
This is not evidence that would be accepted as proven fact. I doubt that

If you think UCMP 137538 isn't Tyrannosaurus, we can debunk MSNM V4047 as Spinosaurus.
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MysteryMeat
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theropod
Dec 26 2012, 03:56 AM
The 14-16m would be average, there are only two adult specimens that I know about, MSNM V4047 and MNHN SAM 124, the smaller of which is still ~14m. then again, the holotype is a subadult and already ~14m.
It's too early to talk about average size amongst Spinosaurus. The remains are too fragmentary, and individual size are of debate.

Holotype is subadult more likely to be 12-13meters. SAM 124 includes a identified anterior dorsal much shorter than any one of the dorsals of the holotype (about 11cm vs. 19cm on average). So it's probably an even smaller individual. If it is indeed an adult, it's a very small one.
Based on my estimate, MSNM V4047's rostrum is about 30% longer than SAM 124.
The more info I read, the more confused I get about Spinosaurus' size.
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Black Ice
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If only that skeleton wasn't destroyed in WWII............
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SpinoInWonderland
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dinosaur
Dec 26 2012, 04:52 AM
Just look at the size of the snout and head of Tyrannosaurus!  :o That should be a very useful weapon.
But is overcome by Spinosaurus' size and strength advantages...
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Maelstrom
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I'm a bit confused as to why people are comparing the maximum size of T-rex to the only known size of Spinosaurus - 16-18 metres for the Spino was attained using a conservative length from Suchomimus, so it would be fair to assume that as far as we know this was Spino's average length.
Edited by Maelstrom, Dec 26 2012, 07:11 PM.
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SpinoInWonderland
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Maelstrom
Dec 26 2012, 06:19 PM
I'm a bit confused why people are comparing the maximum size of T-rex to the only known size of Spinosaurus - 16-18 metres for the Spino was attained using a conservative length from Suchomimus, so wouldn't it be fair to assume that as far as we know this was Spino's average length.
The problem is that people are getting crazy estimates of 12.5-14.5 meters for Spinosaurus and thinking that those debunk the 16-18 meter estimates even though the 12.5-14.5 meter estimates are based entirely on the "too fragmentary" argument and do not follow the proportions of related spinosaurids, in fact they are based on formulas and/or methods obtained using a sample of theropods which don't even have a single spinosaurid at all.

The fact is that the proportions of related spinosaurids point towards a 16-18 meter Spinosaurus, and many people are too biased to accept it. The average Spinosaurus would win against the largest Tyrannosaurus.
Edited by SpinoInWonderland, Dec 26 2012, 06:34 PM.
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Verdugo
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theropod
Dec 26 2012, 03:56 AM
brolyeuphyfusion
Dec 26 2012, 02:05 AM
theropod
Dec 25 2012, 06:48 PM
brolyeuphyfusion
Dec 25 2012, 04:33 PM
Verdugo
Dec 25 2012, 04:24 PM
Black Ice
Dec 25 2012, 03:08 PM
Sorry verdugo, but I came across this size comparison and at the upper weights it's pretty clear spino would win. I didn't realize how much of a size difference spino had at higher weights....though I still can't think of a way in which spino would kill t.rex....... I'll say it wins from a quick scuffle.
Why did you need to say sorry ??. Spino would never be that big actually, day by day, more and more scientists reject the "18m 20t ultra Spinosaurus", and trust me, you CANNOT find a single scientist accept that 18m Spinosaurus by now. Dave Hone even stated that "Spino size is just a MYTH" while Andrea Cau stated "17m is absolutely unreasonable".

A 12m T rex would definitely beat a 14-16m Spinosaurus. I'm awaiting for the 2013 paper describing on Spino, i'm quite sure that Spinosaurus size would be debunked, sooner or later. T rex used to be a14m monster, Saurophaganax used to be a 14m monster, Carcharodontosaurus and Giganotosaurus used to be a 15m monster, the ultra monster 17+m Spino would be history, it is just a matter of time
Again, more conservative estimates does NOT debunk higher ones unless the higher one is physically impossible, and the head:body ratios of related taxa support a 16-18 meter Spinosaurus

Cau said that 17 meters for Spinosaurus was based on proportioning it like a tyrannosaurid, that's nonsense. 17 meters for Spinosaurus was based on proportioning it like Baryonyx/Suchomimus!

That leaves Dave Hone alone in his statement, and so far nothing to support it, Dal Sasso' length estimate is, again, supported by proportions of related taxa, and if you try to site Greg Paul, he has a 14-meter Spinosaurus at a mass of 10 tonnes!
It is downright naive to say that with the obvious fact that its relatives still suggest dal sassos figure
Why? The proportions of related animals result in length estimates within the range that Dal Sasso proposed...

Sorry, I wanted to adress verdugos post and forgot to delete yours in my quote.

dino-ken
Dec 26 2012, 02:37 AM
The problem is the T.rex are drawn to incorrect perportions - the head to body ratio is even less than in Greg Paul's version. And remember now - T.rex is estimated to have had 45 tail vertebrate(which is based on recently described specimens with nearly complete tails) - not the 37 which Greg Paui stated. T.rex should have a skull to body ratio of 8-8.4 to 1 not 7 -7.5 to 1.

As for the UCMP 137538 estimate - it is based on a very fragmentary specimen, and see known T.rex specimens show as good deal of variation in their skeletal perportions. So the estimate of 14.5 meters is doubtful at best.

But then I also believe that Spinosaurus' length is overestimated at 17-18 meters. IMO - the best estimates of Spinosaurus' length are about 14-16 meters, and average of 14.5-15.2 meters.

The 14-16m would be average, there are only two adult specimens that I know about, MSNM V4047 and MNHN SAM 124, the smaller of which is still ~14m. then again, the holotype is a subadult and already ~14m.
Spinosaurus holotype is estimated by Andrea Cau at ~ 12m in length, 14m is greatly over-exaggerated. I have posted some comparison between Sue and Spino holotype vertebrate, Spino holotype is not larger than Sue, it is instead likely to be the smaller one

Cau 14,4m Spino comes from counting the vertebrate, if every basal tetanuraes have 10 cervicals, 13 dorsals and 5 sacrals, why should Spino be the odd one out ?. The only way you can end up with that 17m estimate is adding more vertebrate to its tail and finally ends up with a ridiculously long tail like the reconstruction in Dal Sasso paper
Quote:
 
The difference is that I think the giganotosaurus holotype was more likely 13m

Coria has measured the skeleton from snout to tail and he ends up with a length of 12,2m, the only way Giganotosaurus holotype can be 13m is by adding 80cm vertebrates to its tail, if you like
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SpinoInWonderland
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Verdugo
Dec 26 2012, 06:43 PM
Cau 14,4m Spino comes from counting the vertebrate
There is no vertebra found of an adult Spinosaurus
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Verdugo
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brolyeuphyfusion
Dec 26 2012, 06:49 PM
Verdugo
Dec 26 2012, 06:43 PM
Cau 14,4m Spino comes from counting the vertebrate
There is no vertebra found of an adult Spinosaurus
True, but you can scale up base on the holotype, Cau estimated for the holotype first at ~ 12m long and then he scaled up the the adult
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