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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM (459,302 Views)
Wolf Eagle
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Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus
Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons).

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Edited by Taipan, Apr 24 2015, 10:10 PM.
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Maelstrom
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The Suchomimus which weighed 3.8 tonnes was found to be a subadult and according to Wikipedia an adult would approach the size of a T-rex. I took the conservative route of a Suchomimus weighing 5-6 tonnes (slightly lighter than T-rex) and the results I got from scaling were:

17/12 = 1.42^3 = 2.84 x 5 tonnes = 14.22 tonnes
2.84 x 6 tonnes = 17.04.

If I am correct this would make Spinosaurus 14.22 - 17.04 tonnes, easily double the size of an average T-rex.
Edited by Maelstrom, Dec 26 2012, 07:25 PM.
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theropod
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Verdugo
Dec 26 2012, 06:43 PM
theropod
Dec 26 2012, 03:56 AM
brolyeuphyfusion
Dec 26 2012, 02:05 AM
theropod
Dec 25 2012, 06:48 PM
brolyeuphyfusion
Dec 25 2012, 04:33 PM
Verdugo
Dec 25 2012, 04:24 PM
Black Ice
Dec 25 2012, 03:08 PM
Sorry verdugo, but I came across this size comparison and at the upper weights it's pretty clear spino would win. I didn't realize how much of a size difference spino had at higher weights....though I still can't think of a way in which spino would kill t.rex....... I'll say it wins from a quick scuffle.
Why did you need to say sorry ??. Spino would never be that big actually, day by day, more and more scientists reject the "18m 20t ultra Spinosaurus", and trust me, you CANNOT find a single scientist accept that 18m Spinosaurus by now. Dave Hone even stated that "Spino size is just a MYTH" while Andrea Cau stated "17m is absolutely unreasonable".

A 12m T rex would definitely beat a 14-16m Spinosaurus. I'm awaiting for the 2013 paper describing on Spino, i'm quite sure that Spinosaurus size would be debunked, sooner or later. T rex used to be a14m monster, Saurophaganax used to be a 14m monster, Carcharodontosaurus and Giganotosaurus used to be a 15m monster, the ultra monster 17+m Spino would be history, it is just a matter of time
Again, more conservative estimates does NOT debunk higher ones unless the higher one is physically impossible, and the head:body ratios of related taxa support a 16-18 meter Spinosaurus

Cau said that 17 meters for Spinosaurus was based on proportioning it like a tyrannosaurid, that's nonsense. 17 meters for Spinosaurus was based on proportioning it like Baryonyx/Suchomimus!

That leaves Dave Hone alone in his statement, and so far nothing to support it, Dal Sasso' length estimate is, again, supported by proportions of related taxa, and if you try to site Greg Paul, he has a 14-meter Spinosaurus at a mass of 10 tonnes!
It is downright naive to say that with the obvious fact that its relatives still suggest dal sassos figure
Why? The proportions of related animals result in length estimates within the range that Dal Sasso proposed...

Sorry, I wanted to adress verdugos post and forgot to delete yours in my quote.

dino-ken
Dec 26 2012, 02:37 AM
The problem is the T.rex are drawn to incorrect perportions - the head to body ratio is even less than in Greg Paul's version. And remember now - T.rex is estimated to have had 45 tail vertebrate(which is based on recently described specimens with nearly complete tails) - not the 37 which Greg Paui stated. T.rex should have a skull to body ratio of 8-8.4 to 1 not 7 -7.5 to 1.

As for the UCMP 137538 estimate - it is based on a very fragmentary specimen, and see known T.rex specimens show as good deal of variation in their skeletal perportions. So the estimate of 14.5 meters is doubtful at best.

But then I also believe that Spinosaurus' length is overestimated at 17-18 meters. IMO - the best estimates of Spinosaurus' length are about 14-16 meters, and average of 14.5-15.2 meters.

The 14-16m would be average, there are only two adult specimens that I know about, MSNM V4047 and MNHN SAM 124, the smaller of which is still ~14m. then again, the holotype is a subadult and already ~14m.
Spinosaurus holotype is estimated by Andrea Cau at ~ 12m in length, 14m is greatly over-exaggerated. I have posted some comparison between Sue and Spino holotype vertebrate, Spino holotype is not larger than Sue, it is instead likely to be the smaller one

Cau 14,4m Spino comes from counting the vertebrate, if every basal tetanuraes have 10 cervicals, 13 dorsals and 5 sacrals, why should Spino be the odd one out ?. The only way you can end up with that 17m estimate is adding more vertebrate to its tail and finally ends up with a ridiculously long tail like the reconstruction in Dal Sasso paper
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The difference is that I think the giganotosaurus holotype was more likely 13m

Coria has measured the skeleton from snout to tail and he ends up with a length of 12,2m, the only way Giganotosaurus holotype can be 13m is by adding 80cm vertebrates to its tail, if you like

http://home.comcast.net/~eoraptor/Megalosauroidea.htm#Spinosaurusaegyptiacus
Clearly, Mortimer is known for greatly over exagerated estimates. Totally debunked, isn´t it? Only in your mind, in reality 16-18m remains a totally valid figure.

There is another way, and that is giving it the head-body proportions of Baryonyx or Suchomimus; the resulting animal would be 16,2m as a MINIMUM figure

Maelstrom
Dec 26 2012, 07:23 PM
The Suchomimus which weighed 3.8 tonnes was found to be a subadult and according to Wikipedia an adult would approach the size of a T-rex. I took the conservative route of a Suchomimus weighing 5-6 tonnes (slightly lighter than T-rex) and the results I got from scaling were:

17/12 = 1.42^3 = 2.84 x 5 tonnes = 14.22 tonnes
2.84 x 6 tonnes = 17.04.

If I am correct this would make Spinosaurus 14.22 - 17.04 tonnes, easily double the size of an average T-rex.

while these figures are in the range of possibilities, they seem a bit high. I would prefer if you used the 11m, 2,9-3,8t holotype of Suchomimus.

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Maelstrom
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Ok Theropod, but I don't see the point of scaling the holotype, wasn't it a sub adult? Anyway scaling from the holotype would give an estimate of 10.7 - 14.02 tonnes. This gives an advantage in mass and probably absolute strength, even when scaling with the holotype.
Edited by Maelstrom, Dec 27 2012, 12:04 AM.
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Temnospondyl
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Okay yea the fanboy war is back. Yet, I side with t-rex. Spino was only 14,5 meters in length.
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theropod
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LophoFan14
Dec 27 2012, 03:28 AM
Okay yea the fanboy war is back. Yet, I side with t-rex. Spino was only 14,5 meters in length.

Once more, check your facts please. Spinosaurus was at conservative estimates 14,5m, that´s by no means debunking the higher figures.

Maelstrom
Dec 27 2012, 12:04 AM
Ok Theropod, but I don't see the point of scaling the holotype, wasn't it a sub adult? Anyway scaling from the holotype would give an estimate of 10.7 - 14.02 tonnes. This gives an advantage in mass and probably absolute strength, even when scaling with the holotype.

I meant the suchomimus holotype and not a hypothetical adult lenght and body mass. of course, spinosaurus still has a significant size advantage even at very conservative lenght estimates, that´s why some people want to make it as small lenghtwise as possible, in order to make the size advantage less significant.

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Maelstrom
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LophoFan14
Dec 27 2012, 03:28 AM
Okay yea the fanboy war is back. Yet, I side with t-rex. Spino was only 14,5 meters in length.
The estimation of Spino being 14.5 metres was achieved when comparing it with tyrannosaurids and carnosaurs and also under the assumption that Spino's skull was 1.5 metres.

François Therrien and Donald Henderson estimated Spino as this in their 2007 paper. Here's an abstract

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1671/0272-4634%282007%2927%5B108%3AMTIBTY%5D2.0.CO%3B2

Oh and sorry for misunderstanding Theropod, either way I did actually scale with the Suchomimus holotype but just referred to it wrongly, so the Suchomimus holotype yeilds a 10 - 14 tonne Spino. Plus even if the Spino was 14.5 metres it would be 6.6 - 8.70 tonnes, still higher than average T-rex
Edited by Maelstrom, Dec 27 2012, 04:09 AM.
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Ausar
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Maelstrom
Dec 26 2012, 07:23 PM
The Suchomimus which weighed 3.8 tonnes was found to be a subadult and according to Wikipedia an adult would approach the size of a T-rex. I took the conservative route of a Suchomimus weighing 5-6 tonnes (slightly lighter than T-rex) and the results I got from scaling were:

17/12 = 1.42^3 = 2.84 x 5 tonnes = 14.22 tonnes
2.84 x 6 tonnes = 17.04.

If I am correct this would make Spinosaurus 14.22 - 17.04 tonnes, easily double the size of an average T-rex.
I don't exactly trust Wikipedia when it comes to research, but what you say about scaling does make sense.
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blaze
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Wikipedia can be trusted, as long the claim its cited and the source is credible.
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Fragillimus335
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Here I go. Pining down the likely weight of a fully grown Spinosaurus shouldn't be to hard based on it's relatives. First, I will cover the possible lengths of Spinosaurus, ranging from 14.5 meters to 18 meters.

Using Suchomimus with a slightly liberal weight of ~4.2 tons for an 11 meter Suchomimus, due to Spinossurus being slightly more robust. Using isometric scaling 14.5/11=1.32 1.32^3=2.3 2.3*4.2=9.66 tons.

Using an 18 meter Spinosaurus the equation becomes 18/11=1.63 1.63^3=4.38 4.38*4.2=18.4 tons.

Using the same parameters with baryonyx I arrive at nearly the exact same numbers... Judging by these basic estimations, I find the weight range of Spinosaurus to be roughly 10-18 tons. IMHO I find values in the 15-17 range most likely.

These values indicate Spinosaurus's weight was comfortably twice as high as the next largest well known theropod, Tyrannosaurus, at 5.5-9.5 tons.
Edited by Fragillimus335, Dec 27 2012, 10:17 AM.
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Ausar
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blaze
Dec 27 2012, 09:50 AM
Wikipedia can be trusted, as long the claim its cited and the source is credible.
Anyone can just edit a page and type in a false fact. Although there are some measures to try to stop this, I still don't trust Wikipedia.
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Shaochilong
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LophoFan14
Dec 27 2012, 03:28 AM
Okay yea the fanboy war is back. Yet, I side with t-rex. Spino was only 14,5 meters in length.
Firstly, there is no such thing as a "t-rex".
Secondly, that sounds more accurate for the holotype juvenile than for a healthy adult.

I find it interesting that a number of people claim Cau's speculation as fact and refuse to accept studies that produce results in the range of 16-18 m, simply because they're a few years older.
Yet the most recent studies on Tyrannosaurus' bite suggest less than three tons, and I don't see anyone claiming they are correct because they are newer.
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blaze
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Dec 27 2012, 10:32 AM
blaze
Dec 27 2012, 09:50 AM
Wikipedia can be trusted, as long the claim its cited and the source is credible.
Anyone can just edit a page and type in a false fact. Although there are some measures to try to stop this, I still don't trust Wikipedia.
And anyone can just undo said edit and remove the false fact, wiki's not a desert, there's people that care that its kept accurate, (otherwise a project of its nature would of been doomed since the beginning) Anyway, if you still don't trust something on there, look at the source cited and verify for yourself, if there isn't any, better not trust it from the get go and look elsewhere. :D
Edited by blaze, Dec 27 2012, 11:46 AM.
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SpinoInWonderland
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LophoFan14
Dec 27 2012, 03:28 AM
Okay yea the fanboy war is back. Yet, I side with t-rex. Spino was only 14,5 meters in length.
That was the subadult holotype, adult Spinosaurus were 16-18 meters in length, and more than 10 tonnes in mass...
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bone crusher
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Fragillimus335
Dec 27 2012, 10:13 AM
Here I go. Pining down the likely weight of a fully grown Spinosaurus shouldn't be to hard based on it's relatives. First, I will cover the possible lengths of Spinosaurus, ranging from 14.5 meters to 18 meters.

Using Suchomimus with a slightly liberal weight of ~4.2 tons for an 11 meter Suchomimus, due to Spinossurus being slightly more robust. Using isometric scaling 14.5/11=1.32 1.32^3=2.3 2.3*4.2=9.66 tons.

Using an 18 meter Spinosaurus the equation becomes 18/11=1.63 1.63^3=4.38 4.38*4.2=18.4 tons.

Using the same parameters with baryonyx I arrive at nearly the exact same numbers... Judging by these basic estimations, I find the weight range of Spinosaurus to be roughly 10-18 tons. IMHO I find values in the 15-17 range most likely.

These values indicate Spinosaurus's weight was comfortably twice as high as the next largest well known theropod, Tyrannosaurus, at 5.5-9.5 tons.
There's only one thing though, that you're not including the largest T Rex specimen UCMP137538. If we're all speculating on a 17-18m spino then why not speculating on that infamous Rex giant also? After all they are both fragmentary and theoretically possible. I feel like for the sake of this fight scenario we should at least pit those two together while leaving their actual size debate for another thread, or post pone it until more bones are found.

A 16.5 ton UCMP 137538 vs a 18 ton Spino should be the most epic battle in the history of theropod.
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SpinoInWonderland
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bone crusher
Dec 27 2012, 04:19 PM
Fragillimus335
Dec 27 2012, 10:13 AM
Here I go. Pining down the likely weight of a fully grown Spinosaurus shouldn't be to hard based on it's relatives. First, I will cover the possible lengths of Spinosaurus, ranging from 14.5 meters to 18 meters.

Using Suchomimus with a slightly liberal weight of ~4.2 tons for an 11 meter Suchomimus, due to Spinossurus being slightly more robust. Using isometric scaling 14.5/11=1.32 1.32^3=2.3 2.3*4.2=9.66 tons.

Using an 18 meter Spinosaurus the equation becomes 18/11=1.63 1.63^3=4.38 4.38*4.2=18.4 tons.

Using the same parameters with baryonyx I arrive at nearly the exact same numbers... Judging by these basic estimations, I find the weight range of Spinosaurus to be roughly 10-18 tons. IMHO I find values in the 15-17 range most likely.

These values indicate Spinosaurus's weight was comfortably twice as high as the next largest well known theropod, Tyrannosaurus, at 5.5-9.5 tons.
There's only one thing though, that you're not including the largest T Rex specimen UCMP137538. If we're all speculating on a 17-18m spino then why not speculating on that infamous Rex giant also? After all they are both fragmentary and theoretically possible. I feel like for the sake of this fight scenario we should at least pit those two together while leaving their actual size debate for another thread, or post pone it until more bones are found.
The issue is that you're comparing a freak Tyrannosaurus specimen with the only adult Spinosaurus ever found...
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