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European Wild Horses; originally posted by Dfoidl
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Topic Started: Jan 9 2012, 06:44 PM (28,358 Views)
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Taipan
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Jan 9 2012, 06:44 PM
Post #1
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This is the thread on european wild horses, the Tarpan, as well as primitive horse races.
Concerning the question how the european wild horses looked like and which modern horse breeds fit them best, you'll come across Koniks, Exmoor Ponies, and Sorraia horses. It is interesting that Koniks and Sorraias show some rather primitive features, such as occasionally leg stripes and shoulder stripes. Furthermore, they have a similar coat colour and blond hairs in their manes, so these similarities, considering their different origin, may be inherited by their ancestors. Here is an interesting example of shoulder and leg stripes in Sorraia horses:


There are some historical records describing the appearance of Tarpanes, which fit Koniks and Sorraias in many respects, such as the coat colour, the dark mouth, the dark eel stripes, the leg and shoulder stripes. And there is one photo of the alleged last Tarpan, which's pedigree is questionable:

Now it may look as the case is clear, and that Koniks and Sorraias are most representative for the european wild horses. But it gets quite complicated. There is the Exmoor Pony too, which looks primitive due to its very interesting similarity with Przewalski's Horses, which we know of that they are authentic, but a different subspecies or maybe species. The primitive features include the white mouth, white rings around the eyes, darker legs, a light ventral colour. Some of them show relicts of shoulder stripes.

There is one article in EuroWildlife, with Henri Kerkdijk-Otten, which supports that the Exmoor Pony is the most authentic breed http://www.eurowildlife.org/news/wild-horses-for-europe–-which-breed-is-the-best/. They seem to have the same colour genes as the Tarpan, and their colour palette is the same as those of the cave paintings (from light brown to reddish-brown to dark brown). What is the most interesting fact Henri Kerkdijk-Otten says here is that Koniks seemingly have genetically nothing to do with Tarpans. So the situation seems clear again, now with Exmoor Ponies being the most primitive horse breed.
There obviously is a discrepancy between genetic data and historical reports (the photo of the alleged last Tarpan isn't very Exmoor-like either). I am very interested in the frozen bodies of wild horses from the late pleistocene, does anybody know where to get a photo of these? If Koniks and Sorraias do not have much to do with Tarpans, I am curious on why they retained primtive features such as shoulder stripes and leg stripes and are quite similar although they may have a completely different breeding history. The stories on the origin of the three races (Exmoor, Konik and Sorraia) all tell a connection to the wild horse, respectively, with the Sorraia actually being surviving Tarpans. I think the breed history of the three races has to be investigated fact-based.
I actually believe that the facts tend to support the Exmoor Pony as the most authentic breed; but what I explained above regarding the Konik and Sorraia features in agreement with historical reports makes me think how well supported is the idea of two types of wild horses in Europe. One with Exmoor Ponies as primtive representants, and one with Koniks and Sorraias as representants. The lack of match of Koniks with Tarpan DNA may be explained by the possibility that a Exmoor-type Tarpan was tested. I know that there were two types of Tarpan described, the forest Tarpan Equus ferus sylvaticus, and the Steppe Tarpan, Equus ferus gmelini, but I wonder how valid this split is since they seem to had been described quite identically. However, I can imagine that there was a Exmoor-like and a Konik/Sorraia-like horse type native to Europe, and the fact that the historical reports AFAIK do not mention Exmoor-like features may be explained by a previous extinction of the Exmoor-like type, so that only the Konik-like type was around by that time.
This are the thoughts I made concerning this issue on the base of the information I have. It's quite a complicated case, I think. I am interested in what you think about the Tarpan-Issue.
Regard
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Ursus arctos
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Jan 10 2012, 08:32 PM
Post #2
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Autotrophic Organism
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- firefly
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By now, according to my modern knowledge, the best primitive breed for rewilding Europe, is the Exmoor pony. I´ll explain later, why... The Sorraia is a controversial ( luckily that wasn´t re (?)introduced in several places before more investigation) subject. Konik is controversial too but much more problematic ( it was re (?)introduced in several places). We need bones and more genetic evidences. Some local iberian authentic breeds ( local versions of Exmoor) can be used to rewild some local ecossystems ( Potoka, Asturcón, Caballo Gallego, Garrano). In mountains, even the Exmoor breed could be used as well.  :)   http://multiply.com/mu/faltz/image/2/photos/upload/300x300/Qt04aAoKCkwAAGafC2w4.jpg/32A.Garrano1.jpg?et=2g36i2CTlL8KgTJc9GhpiQ&nmid=2428042The black version ( 2 colors have been described on wild horses ( brown/bay and black). The black color appeared later.
- dfoidl
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When I went to southern England this year, I visited the Exmoor national park and saw some of the semi-feral Exmoors there, it was great.
To my knowledge, I agree, the Exmoor is the most authentic breed. But I wonder if there may have been two types of wild horse in europe because of historical reports and the photo. And I am curious on the prominent stripes of Koniks and Sorraias, and why they such a similarity to each other.
Concerning skeletons, I heard that skeletal material of the Tarpan was compared to Exmoors, and that they mach to a high degree. But I read the same with Koniks. Horse domestication obviously didn't affect proportions as much as, say, in aurochsen.
I absolutely agree on the fact that Koniks shouldn't had been introduced anywhere without necessary research (f.e. Oostvaardersplassen). It's the same problem as with heck cattle.
Wow, I didn't know that there are iberian pendants of Exmoor ponies. Do know the name of those breeds and maybe pictures of them?
Regards
- firefly
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- dfoidl
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When I went to southern England this year, I visited the Exmoor national park and saw some of the semi-feral Exmoors there, it was great.
To my knowledge, I agree, the Exmoor is the most authentic breed. But I wonder if there may have been two types of wild horse in europe because of historical reports and the photo. And I am curious on the prominent stripes of Koniks and Sorraias, and why they such a similarity to each other.
Concerning skeletons, I heard that skeletal material of the Tarpan was compared to Exmoors, and that they mach to a high degree. But I read the same with Koniks. Horse domestication obviously didn't affect proportions as much as, say, in aurochsen.
I absolutely agree on the fact that Koniks shouldn't had been introduced anywhere without necessary research (f.e. Oostvaardersplassen). It's the same problem as with heck cattle.
Wow, I didn't know that there are iberian pendants of Exmoor ponies. Do know the name of those breeds and maybe pictures of them?
Regards
Yes, for example: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Caballos.JPGCaballo Gallego But the most authentic of all is still Exmoor, in my opinion. See, iberian breeds have been suffering, because local agriculture services, don't care about how wild they are. In England people are more organized on these subjects ( again check the mentality differences between Central Europe and South Europe...). ;) Especially with Garrano, we are now trying to save last wild phenotypes, because the government was interested in increasing their size ( for this effect some crossbreedings were done). Geographically, They live in transition climatic zone and they are naturally selected by iberian wolves ( their main predator) on their feral populations. I already did posted garrano pictures above, along with Exmoor. ( Check the forest picture and the black pony version). Let´s see what can be done if the interesting phenotypes are selected and separated. Something closer to what Garranos did looked like when they were still wild, would quite probably crop out, relatively fast. In horses, we would have less problems in getting to their ancestors, than with modern domestic cattle and aurochsen. The reason to see some garranos and gallegos, still keeping primitive phenotypes, maybe is related to the isolation location on which they live ( not all farmers have direct and imediate acess to their animals too) and the fact that many times, the primitive phenotype can absorb the domestic one ( until a certain degree of course). Przewalski horses genetically have some mix with other horses, for example, but look at their phenotypes? It´s the Exmoor version of the steppes! :) Even some american bisons have also genetic mix with imagine what: domestic cattle. But looking at them you wouldn´t guess it. Concerning the existence of another wild horse in Europe, I agree, that´s quite possible. The phenotypical similarities between konik and Sorraia are very interesting. Maybe Rewild Europe project have an answer for it? I already did saw some feral Yakutian horses with some similar primitive features ( like konik and sorraia) curiously. But I don´t know why I still feel very skeptical about this subject ( Sorraia/Konik).  Garrano wounded by wolf  Enjoying freedom. Article about Exmoor ( I did saw it on Project TaurOs site): http://www.wildlifeextra.com/go/news/exmoor-ponies011.html#crI only did realized about it, yesterday! Check this website that purposes the possibility of the 2 different horses existence: http://www.soscaballolosino.com/Entrada-razasautoctonas/Entrada%20caballos/Entrada%20caballos.htmIf you have problems with spanish use google translator.
- dfoidl
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Very interesting breed, especially that feral populations exist fascinate me. Regarding the conservation of the breed, doesn't the EU support the conservation of old and endangered domestic breeds? Like the Murnau-Werdenfelser, which is promoted by the european agriculutural guidance and guarantee fund. The individuals you posted lack the white mouth and ring around the eyes, which I regard as important wild horse features (since Przewalskies have them as well). Also the mane looks quite heavy. Maybe crossing them with Exmoor ponies would be a good idea. - Quote:
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Even some american bisons have also genetic mix with imagine what: domestic cattle. But looking at them you wouldn´t guess it.
I think that some American Bisons show a more or less high impact on their phenotype from domestic cattle interbreeding. F.e. some have horns that look untypical, f.e. they are stumpy or point too much outwards, or others are unexpectedly big. I wonder if the strongly curled hair on the head of many american bison may also be a consequence of interbreeding, since bisons which are very likely free of domestic influence such as those in Yellowstone or Hellabrunn have shaggy, but more strait hairs on the front head. Back to the Tarpan, I am interested and looking forward to what will come out of the new project started by Henri Kerkdijk-Otten focusing on the European Wild horse. Regards
- firefly
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- dfoidl
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Very interesting breed, especially that feral populations exist fascinate me. Regarding the conservation of the breed, doesn't the EU support the conservation of old and endangered domestic breeds? Like the Murnau-Werdenfelser, which is promoted by the european agriculutural guidance and guarantee fund.
I´m not sure... I only know that this breed did suffered crossbreeding in the past. Agriculture services weren´t interested in protecting it, like it really should be. - dfoidl
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The individuals you posted lack the white mouth and ring around the eyes, which I regard as important wild horse features (since Przewalskies have them as well). Also the mane looks quite heavy. Maybe crossing them with Exmoor ponies would be a good idea.
The white belly and the white mouth, can be seen in certain individuals ( check the black garrano that I did posted ( not white but lighter color lol). But I only did used random pictures from the web, of course that field work would turn out with better results. Potoka:  Link about Sorraia: http://www.soscaballolosino.com/La%20encebra.htmlI honestly think, that Exmoor could be used exclusively, though local measures to turn garrano or gallego, to it´s primeval state could take place.
- dfoidl
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Thanks for the link on the Sorraia. I'd really like to read all the original historical reports describing the appearance of the Tarpan. Here is an interesting article which gives a description http://www.fotocommunity.de/search?q=Auerochsen&index=fotos&options=YToyOntzOjU6InN0YXJ0IjtpOjA7czo3OiJkaXNwbGF5IjtzOjg6IjE2MjUzMDU2Ijt9/pos/61I'll translate what it says to English: The shoulder height was 130 cm, the legs were not as short as in ponies. The head was more gracile, the eyes larger and the ears smaller than those of the Przewalski's horse. Its mouse gray summer coat transformed to almost white in the winter. The snout was dark and looked oriental, in contrast to the white mouth of the Exmoor pony. An eel stripe was always present. The foals were lightly brown, often there were shoulder stripes just like in Sorraias. The hanging mane was dark and had some white strands. The legs were dark on the front side, the hoofs were small and high. Those descriptions oddly match the Sorraia/Konik-type to a high degree. But I think it is quite unsafe to refer only to this article, which doesn't give a reference. I'd like to see some of the original articles, or at least scientific publications referring to these. Regarding the Tarpan photo, I think interbreeding may explain why it lacks the exmoor features. Under the assumption that the wild horses in the 19th centuries were of the exmoor type. I'd like to see some of the studies concerning the Tarpan and primitive breeds genetics, Henri recommended the work of Cieslak, 2010, to me, which I think is this one: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0015311Regards
- dfoidl
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I know what you mean, it is a pity that it weren't Exmoor or Przewalski's horses which escaped and got feral in North America. It would be a much more natural situation today, than this heterogeneous bunch of domestic animals. By the way, it is interesting that the species Equus ferus is actually congeneric with Equus lambei according to genetic data, what means that the species of the modern horse originated in North America and that mustangs can be regarded as "native". F.e. look Wild horses as Native North American Wildlife, Kirkpatrick & Fazio 2005. I found an interesting photo of two przewalski horses in Khustai National Park, which are extraordinary due to what looks like a striped neck. I'm not sure if those structures are maybe wrinkles, but it looks like stripes.  If they are, it certainly represents an archaic feature, so I made thoughts on what the first Equus ferus (namely those in America, formerly lambei) may have looked like and did a photo manipulation with two Przewalski horses I photographed in the zoo of Salzburg and put them on a landscape photo of the Great Plains. Sorry about the ring, but I feel quite unsafe when presenting my restorations in the internet without protection.  Regards
- firefly
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 On these Przewalski horses, I think that´s just rugged skin. :) «Regarding the Tarpan photo, I think interbreeding may explain why it lacks the exmoor features. Under the assumption that the wild horses in the 19th centuries were of the exmoor type.»-Dfoidl Well it lacks certain Exmoor features, but the basic type is almost all there. White rings around the eyes, though not very visible, the connection between white belly and white muzzle, the main color of the coat, the « sheep» shaped skull and short legs...Maybe the legs should be darker? This is just a random picture found the web. And Potoka isn´t the best local breed. The best are found on the Northwest side of the Iberian Peninsula ( an «universe» composed by thousands of individuals in total), so there are a lot from where to choose from. The black wild horse version, surely hadn´t exactly the same color composition of the brown version... I wouldn´t expect to see a white belly/mouth on a black wild horse for example. So that garrano has a nice coloring in my opinion and it´s a small horse like it´s ancestors. In fact, it´s extraordinary to still be able to find these examples, since the hybridization processes in Iberia, are known to have centuries, being prevalent in relatively more recent times, though. I wonder if some local sub populations did were protected from the most important hybridizations, which can be explained by the rugged geography, population scarcer density and strong local cultural individualism ( people developed a local proper dialect, in Spain and Portugal). So yes, I think that´s possible, to backbreed into the Iberian ecotype of the Exmoor, using only local breeds. And it won´t take a long time to have sucess. Some of these primitive horses live all the times of their living, in the nature, fending off predators and supporting the alpine conditions, so the adaptation will be fine in my opinion. But I´m opened to accept others opinions. If necessary, Exmoor can be incorporated too, on this project ( that´s taking place, already), or used exclusively. ;) PS: Like you say, they were similar to Exmoor in the past, I just don´t know, when exactly the main changes did happened. But, even if relatively numerous, the population of these animals are getting rare and the most primitive types are in strong risk of being dilluted. In fact, I think that most Iberian people, would be shocked if I tell them, that most of the horses that they usually see, are no longer of the native and primitive ecotype. Garrano and Gallego enthusiasts, should be aware of the truth and try to do something for these primitive animals. To crossbreed with other horse types, or make propaganda of the wrong ecotype as a good wild ecotype, are the worse things that can be done. So again, like with aurochsen, it´s important to be fast and act now, before is too late. All Europe/world would benefit from this. Sorraia/Konik subject Your reference that describes tarpan, it´s interesting, but as you said a scientific reference is needed to support it. Regarding the DNA testing, I agree that maybe not enough tarpan samples have been used and that maybe there were other wild horses. It´s possible that a «forest tarpan type» ( Exmoor) have been used as sample reference, so the results can be biased. Hence, my approach about this subject, is that we need bones and genetic evidence to support the Sorraia/Konik subject. The good thing is that we are gathering amazing data so we should be closer to the truth now. 2 Holocene refugia for European horses http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/04/two-holocene-refugia-for-european.htmlAbstract: «The role of European wild horses in horse domestication is poorly understood. While the fossil record for wild horses in Europe prior to horse domestication is scarce, there have been suggestions that wild populations from various European regions might have contributed to the gene pool of domestic horses. To distinguish between regions where domestic populations are mainly descended from local wild stock and those where horses were largely imported, we investigated patterns of genetic diversity in 24 European horse breeds typed at 12 microsatellite loci. The distribution of high levels of genetic diversity in Europe coincides with the distribution of predominantly open landscapes prior to domestication, as suggested by simulation-based vegetation reconstructions, with breeds from Iberia and the Caspian Sea region having significantly higher genetic diversity than breeds from central Europe and the UK, which were largely forested at the time the first domestic horses appear there. Our results suggest that not only the Eastern steppes, but also the Iberian Peninsula provided refugia for wild horses in the Holocene, and that the genetic contribution of these wild populations to local domestic stock may have been considerable. In contrast, the consistently low levels of diversity in central Europe and the UK suggest that domestic horses in these regions largely derive from horses that were imported from the Eastern refugium, the Iberian refugium, or both.» Horse domestication: http://www.behav.org/student_essay/horse/doran_horse_domestication.pdf
- dfoidl
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- firefly
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On these Przewalski horses, I think that´s just rugged skin. :)
Sorraia/Konik subject
Your reference that describes tarpan, it´s interesting, but as you said a scientific reference is needed to support it.
Regarding the DNA testing, I agree that maybe not enough tarpan samples have been used and that maybe there were other wild horses. It´s possible that a «forest tarpan type» ( Exmoor) have been used as sample reference, so the results can be biased. Hence, my approach about this subject, is that we need bones and genetic evidence to support the Sorraia/Konik subject. The good thing is that we are gathering amazing data so we should be closer to the truth now.
Thanks for the links; yeah, the structures could be wrinkled skin quite possible, it's hard to tell by this small photo. I agree with you on the Konik/Sorraia subject, more data and research is needed. You think the Exmoor type is the Forest Tarpan type? I always thought that the colour of Exmoors (similar to that of the Przewalskies, but darker) suggests open land, while the Konik/Sorraia type is the Steppe Tarpan type. I know a zoologist from Germany who said that he attended a seminar of a professor, who thought the same of the steppe/forest ecotype, and even that they may represent two different species because of their different ecology. He also suggested a split between Syncerus caffer and nanus, what I always thought is very legitimate. Interestingly, semi-feral nor feral Koniks (Oostvaardersplassen) show no affinities to woodland, but Exmoors don't either AFAIK.
- firefly
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When I did observed semi feral/ feral garranos on the wild, they were mainly seen on the forest. Of course, that I wasn´t enough time there, to make up definitive conclusions about their behavior, but it was still interesting, anyway. Their short legs and agility can be handy on dense forest, I think.
Anyway, they aren´t living in that region, only by their choice, but maybe because they were obliged to survive on the mountains. Having this in mind, we can´t conclude that they are mainly forest dwellers. In fact, they are also seen, on open landscapes, roaming in groups. I would say that they choose different ecossystems, according to different seasonal diet disponibilities, to temperature variations, etc, etc... I would like to see behavioral data about Exmoor.
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Ursus arctos
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Jan 10 2012, 08:59 PM
Post #3
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Autotrophic Organism
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- dfoidl
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Here are some other breeds with primitive features: The Norwegian Fjord Pony (the mane is cut, that's why it looks like a standing mane): http://www.fotofinder.com/search/fulltext/Fjord-PonyThe Gotland pony:   Unfortunately, those as well are occasionally crossed with more domesticated breeds. I really hope that the primtive breeds, especially the Exmoor, gets conserved and soon increased in number.
- dfoidl
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Here are some cave paintings of pleistocene wild horses, I'm sure most people will know them, but I think it would be good to show them here as well:   You see a orange-chestnut brown individual with a darker portion on it's neck and head, you see this in many exmoor ponies. Some of the dark phenotype are present as well.  The spotted versions, the Tarpan photo and many Exmoors show a more or less spotted pattern. You see again that the neck and head are darker.  Shows the broad dorsal stripes very nice.  I am quite sure this is a Przewalski horse. Lascaux.  Not sure whether this one depicts a Przewalski horse or a Tarpan, but it shows two shoulder stripes. Now I'll show some photos I took at southern England.  The image above shows Exmoor ponies of the dark phenotype, at the Exmoor Pony Centre, where "surplus" horses are taken from the wilderness, tamed and used for tourists in order to help to preserve this important breed. The image below it shows the semiferal chestnut-coloured Exmoors, moving freely in the open steppe and bushlands in the National park. This is an interesting individual from Dartmoor:  In Dartmoor there live around 400 semiferal domestic horses (if the exmoors were that abundant...), some of them are likely exmoor hybrids. This one looks interesting, as it has stripes on its dark legs and a prominent eel stripe. There are blond strands in the mane as well, when I spectated it, I guessed it may have a Sorraia in its ancestry. But it is almost impossible to follow the history of single horses in Dartmoor, since there are herds of completely mixed breeds there. Regards
- dfoidl
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Here is a much better photo of the alleged last Tarpan (the image from Wikipedia is obviously a scan):  You see the lightly spotted pattern on its trunk, but it lacks the white mouth, the white eyering isn't obvious, as are the shoulder stripes, and the legs do not look really dark, and they apparently lack stripes. Honestly, I think if I witnessed this horse somewhere, I'd never think it was a true wild horse. Maybe the last Tarpans were affected by generations of interbreeding, so that the last Tarpans had many domestic features. Or, this alleged last Tarpan is a hoax at all and shows an escaped domestic horse.
- firefly
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Very interesting, indeed. I´m not sure if all wild horses did had white eyerings or white mouths ( Ebhardt for example talks about the possibility of 4 different types of wild horses) but I agree with you, that «last tarpan» picture, shows indeed a strangely domestic horse. In fact, that much better version, present us a completely different animal, from the usual one, that we see around the web. Thanks for enphasizing that point. A HISTORY OF THE HORSE/Volume I: The Iberian Horse From Ice Age to Antiquity, Paulo Gaviao Gonzaga describes Ebhardt's type III horse: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7q-PLpU2iy0/SXtVMpnmPGI/AAAAAAAABCM/FZ1Krj1y9Kc/s1600-h/My-Ebhardt-Type-III.jpgType III had a long head with a small narrow forehead and convex profile, a fine delicate muzzle, straight jaw, small teeth, long ears and eyes placed higher on the head, a long neck and clean throatlatch. "The prominent withers, higher than the rump, reached far on to a medium to long back, long inclined shoulders, narrow chest and body, and sloping croup. Long legs, cannon bones and pasterns ended in oval, medium sized hoofs [sic] with no feathering. These characteristics made him capable of moving with collection, placing the hind legs under the body mass and the nose vertically, the ideal requirements for a good riding horse. "Probably the dark mane, with intermingled light-coloured hairs at the bottom, was long and lay on the neck, although some sub-types may have had upright manes. The coat was dun or grullo (mouse dun) with a darker face. Type III always had a dorsal black line, and zebra stripes on the legs and very often also on the shoulders." (pp. 30-31). This sounds like the Sorraia/Konik type. Here :http://ravenseyrie.blogspot.com/2009_01_01_archive.html) it´s claimed that there´s, a Sorraia/Konik well preserved specimen type... So I wonder, where it´s this fossil/well preserved specimen?
- dfoidl
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Type III reminds me of the Sorraia individual I posted at the first post, especially the shoulder stripes are similar to those of the sketch, and distinct from those of Tarpans and the remains preserved in the Przewalskis and Exmoors.  What are the possible 4 types and the description of type III by Ebhardt based on? Skeletal remains plus historical reports? Or just inferred by the features of the Sorraia? If there really were more than two european types of wild horses, additionally to the Przewalski horse, then Equus ferus was a quite diverse species. I wonder if Europe provides enough biological barriers to evolve so many forms of one megaherbivore species, especially when their habitates overlapped, segregation must have been almost impossible.
- dfoidl
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I just discovered an interesting native german breed, the Dülmen horse, which is extremely similar to the konik and dates back to the 14th century living feral in some regions of germany. http://lw-fotografie.npage.de/duelmener-wildpferde-2008_8152628.htmlIf it is true that the konik type has nothing to do with the Tarpan, then I have another idea about the history of the konik type (including the dülmen and other similar breeds). Maybe they descended from a homogenous population of domestic horses which run wild in some parts of eastern or northern europe, say, prussia, similar to the mustangs in NA. If, after centuries, people got used to them and started to regard them as native wild animals, this would explain why those breeds are constantly associated with the tarpan. Just an idea.
- firefly
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 Hard to imagine a wild horse with a leopard spotted coat, isn´t it? It must be quite a sight! Regarding the Coa site, I did saw that some primitive art suffered a bit of vandalism ( a bit like all ( or almost) the other famous cave art sites, unfortunately). Curiously one vandalist, did left there a mark of the XII century. There are also some more recent ones, but none is pretty recent. In fact, the Coa Art carvings and paintings, were only found in the 1990´s, because a dam was about to be constructed there and the workers found loads of ancient art in the rocks. Fortunately the government was interested in protecting the art. Now more actions like this are wanted. The potential exists, imagine the quantity of art that still needs to be found. Maybe some will be found only when someone decides to build something there...
- firefly
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- firefly
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Surprisingly the existence of these phenotypes on wild horses are supported by scientific evidences: http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/335913/title/Prehistoric_horses_came_in_leopard_print«By analyzing bones and teeth from more than 30 horses in Siberia and Europe dating back as many as 35,000 years, researchers found that six shared a gene associated with a type of leopard spotting seen in modern horses». http://news.discovery.com/history/cave-men-paint-real-horses-111108.htmlSo now we have bay, black and spotted wild horses. Luckily all phenotypes can be recovered. «What are the possible 4 types and the description of type III by Ebhardt based on? Skeletal remains plus historical reports? Or just inferred by the features of the Sorraia?»- Dfoidl No predomesticated Sorraia horse bones were found until now. That was my main point regarding this subject. There´s a Sorraia thread on this forum. At the beginning, I did trusted on some scientific studies but I did found later that it did lacked evidence. No bones were found until now, so the subject remains unclear. Further studies, did seriously put in question the Sorraia/Konik status as true wild horses. «If there really were more than two european types of wild horses, additionally to the Przewalski horse, then Equus ferus was a quite diverse species. I wonder if Europe provides enough biological barriers to evolve so many forms of one megaherbivore species, especially when their habitates overlapped, segregation must have been almost impossible.»- Dfoidl. Yes, wild horses can integrate and crossbreed, but not all populations are exposed to the same external influences and not all live in the same overlapping area. Local Predators, climate, vegetation, ( etc...) also do select certain features. Some phenotypes are more functional in certain ecosystems than the others ( Europe has a diverse habitat mosaic), and while some Equus ferus regions may had intermediate forms, others located further in a different ecoregion, did had different forms. This is mainly explained by adaptability ( diverse genetics, for example) and geographical distances ( climatological, for example). So yes, I think that Equus ferus, was a quite diverse species, indeed. With time, maybe different species would crop out from it. http://www.flickr.com/photos/knabstrupper/5327664985/in/photostream/
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Ursus arctos
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Jan 10 2012, 09:03 PM
Post #4
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Autotrophic Organism
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- dfoidl
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This news is really interesting, since I always thought that this kind of spotted colour is always a result of domestication. Here I have photo of a really almost black exmoor pony in exmoor. When I spectated it, I thought this was a result of interbreeding with domestic horses because back then I didn't know that there was a black phenotype in the Tarpan as well. That one foal is beautiful as well, it has similarities to the przewalski horse because of it's light coat and the standing mane, but that is normal for a foal. 
- firefly
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Yes, I did got pretty surprised with the aspect of leopard spotted wild horses ( only 3 modern breeds have regular leopard spotted coat, AFAIK). These wild horses did had white with dark ( brown especially) spots on their coats indeed, and maybe that was advantageous on the snowy landscapes of the European Pleistocene ( without snow, they would be too visible and promptly chased by predators). These horses did had a poor night vision, though, compared with the other wild horses.
The same study did found that some wild horses did had bay/brown or black coat colors, as well.
My theory, is that with the climate warming up, the leopard spotted wild horses, turned rarer and rarer, because this trait wasn´t advantageous anymore. In colder regions, though, these horses survived until longer periods.
Curious point, is that an horse can be brown coated, but carry the leopard spotted alleles. But the leopard spotted phenotype, can crop out easily on the next generation or so.
According to the cave art, we can establish some paralelisms, between science and what was thought to have only an artistic symbolic meaning. From now on, we should really have more attention to well detailed primitive cave art, not that all will represent exactly how animals were, but that at least for some cases, we may be having a true glance on the past.
Curiously, foals with Przewalski aspect also appear in some northern iberian breeds, of the same wild horse ecotype ( "Exmoor and ca"). However, horses with standing manes are not usual to see on adults of these breeds, but horses with falling manes, yes. Why? Because falling manes ( divided in 2 to wash out water from the neck vertebral spine region) are better to divert rain.
So are we having a glance on true survivors, from what were thought to be an extinct species of wild horse? Yes, that may sound weird, but it´s true.
- firefly
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- dfoidl
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Interesting, but they still look quite reddish to me. Is the wild horse project, which I presume will reintroduce a restoration of the iberian ecotype in contrast to the other european populations just like with the aurochs, planning to work only with improved garranos or will exmoor ponies be crossed in too?
I just want to let you know, that this herd was only formed in the base of not getting horses with white, nothing more, nothing less. No technical advice was given before. Anyway, there are more horses on this herd and some were inspected ( directly in the field) by some experts. We did saw that at least 1 horse ( a female) should be used ( for sure) in the wild iberian horse recreation project. She´s also an excellent mother and get pregnant easily, just like wild horses did. In the web we already did found also some good horses of this breed. We also did saw some videos of youtube, with quite good horses. Some do even have somewhat standing manes ( not particularly important but interesting anyway). We also know that some of these horses still live in the wild, along with predators, coping with rough forage, mountain climate, etc... And the genetic tests actually did confirmed that they come from the wild horse and not from feral or domestic horses ( like sorraia, konik and others). Regarding the coat color, there´s no real problem with brown color variations like we see on this picture. We can get bay/brown and even black garranos, just like the recent scientific study did confirmed for European wild horses by the genetic analysis. The wrong animals can be easily detected and avoided. So we see an overall nice connection between this primitive breed and wild horses, don´t you think? In fact, from one place in Spain, the major parts of the wild horses that did got genotyped were black. But we also did got bay horses and considering that only one place was «genotyped» and that only few horses were studied, we shouldn´t take big conclusions from this. Regarding the strategy that we´ll use to breed back the local wild horse, we can focus only on garrano ( we´ll get it done, almost 100% sure), but more likely we´ll combine it with other 1 or 2 good iberian breeds. Exmoor is not out of equation, since it´s exactly the same wild horse subspecie. But I can´t give you these details by now and here. One thing we can be sure, we´ll get there. There´s already no doubt. And it will be relatively fast.  Iberian horse from the Basque country. It has a very good phenotype in my opinion. Uploaded with ImageShack.us
- firefly
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- peterdonck
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Yes, Przewalski horses aren´t the ancestors of modern domestic horses. See here ( this was already posted on this thread): http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/04/two-holocene-refugia-for-european.htmlDomestic horses come from other Equus ferus subspecie. - peterdonck
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and I don't think this link did pass here either : www.sorraia.org
Yes, that link was already posted on this forum, but according to our current scientific knowledge, Sorraias aren´t living tarpans, but more likely feral horses ( with origin in domesticated horses).
- peterdonck
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maybe current scientific knowledge might not be far enough.... so maybe it's wrong to rule out one ancient type of horse (-breed) in favour of just one other.....
Przewalski horses, just like norvegian fjords do have primitive striping in combination with the "pangare"-coat aspect, otherwise known as "mealy-mouth" (going together with a mealy-belly, inside legs and sometimes the lighter eyeblotch) Sorraias, Dulmener, some icelandic horses and others (even some Lusitanos) do have the striping but not the "pangare". Exmoors and other primitive ponybreeds have the pangare on a bay coat but no visible striping (which doesn't mean it can't be hidden in way (countershadowing). Pangare is also seen on non-black-based horses (black and bay), so called chestnuts (by which the eumelanin (black pigment) is supressed and which do have a reddish apearance with red manes and tales : on a chestnut horse the pangare genome can act as well, this is seen in breeds like the haflinger. On the other hand there is an allel which is called At and stands for sooty = the darkening of the animal from the spine down, it is a form of melanism and the apearance on a horse is much similar to the pangare
wildbay horses (like the exmoor) aswell as Dun/Grulla horses (like the sorraia) come on a gliding scale from lighter coloured to almost black
why shouldn't exmoortypes and sorraiatypes not be just different branches of one common ancestor
* a shorter, heavier type with longer coat, darker pigmented for better heath-absorbtion and a round body with a smaller surface for fewer energy-loss (more square head with shorter ears) - wider hooves for softer soils and more abundant manes for a better rain-drain * a leaner type with longer legs for higher speed in more open landscape, smaller hooves for harder soils, lighter colour for better light/heat-reflection, narrower body with a higher surface/volume ratio for a better cool-down - longer and more refined head....
- firefly
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- peterdonck
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maybe current scientific knowledge might not be far enough.... so maybe it's wrong to rule out one ancient type of horse (-breed) in favour of just one other...
Przewalski horses, just like norvegian fjords do have primitive striping in combination with the "pangare"-coat aspect, otherwise known as "mealy-mouth" (going together with a mealy-belly, inside legs and sometimes the lighter eyeblotch) Sorraias, Dulmener, some icelandic horses and others (even some Lusitanos) do have the striping but not the "pangare". Exmoors and other primitive ponybreeds have the pangare on a bay coat but no visible striping (which doesn't mean it can't be hidden in way (countershadowing). Pangare is also seen on non-black-based horses (black and bay), so called chestnuts (by which the eumelanin (black pigment) is supressed and which do have a reddish apearance with red manes and tales : on a chestnut horse the pangare genome can act as well, this is seen in breeds like the haflinger. On the other hand there is an allel which is called At and stands for sooty = the darkening of the animal from the spine down, it is a form of melanism and the apearance on a horse is much similar to the pangare
wildbay horses (like the exmoor) aswell as Dun/Grulla horses (like the sorraia) come on a gliding scale from lighter coloured to almost black
why shouldn't exmoortypes and sorraiatypes not be just different branches of one common ancestor
* a shorter, heavier type with longer coat, darker pigmented for better heath-absorbtion and a round body with a smaller surface for fewer energy-loss (more square head with shorter ears) - wider hooves for softer soils and more abundant manes for a better rain-drain * a leaner type with longer legs for higher speed in more open landscape, smaller hooves for harder soils, lighter colour for better light/heat-reflection, narrower body with a higher surface/volume ratio for a better cool-down - longer and more refined head....
I´m not ruling out other hypothesis, I did said that according to what we currently know, Sorraia/Konik horses aren´t considered wild horses anymore. I´m open to accept new realities. Genetic tests ruled out the hypothesis that Konik and Sorraia belong to primitive horses. Unless the samples were contaminated, or that the wrong horses were genotyped, we have to exclude these horses as primitive horses. There´s also the possibility that we are comparing different types of horses ( Sorraia hypothetical wild horse subspecie with Exmoor wild horse subspecie), so the results get diverging final results, but I think that´s a remote chance. If you have any scientific source to support Sorraia/Konik as primitive horses, please post it here, in fact, I would be quite interested to see it.
- peterdonck
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Quote out of this paper :
Because of its low variability, the Sorraia usually separ- ated from the other breeds when only one type of marker was used, as seen also in Oom & Cothran (1994); Juras et al. (2003); Cothran & Lu ́ıs (2005) and Morais et al. (2005). However, when we used all three types of Quote : "markers the Sorraia clustered with the other Iberian and Iberian-influ- enced breeds. Indeed the Sorraia is considered a primitive horse and is believed to be the primary ancestor of the Iberian horses and therefore an ancestor of light and saddle horses. This theory has not been proven in previous studies using mitochondrial DNA caused by the reduced number of matrilineal lines found for the Sorraia (Jansen et al. 2002; Lu ́ıs et al. 2002a; Lopes et al. 2005; Royo et al. 2005). However, new results from mtDNA analysis (Lu ́ıs et al. 2006) revealed a lost haplotype in the Sorraia breed, which is included in the mtDNA haplogroup recognized for having high frequency in Iberian horses (Lopes et al. 2005; Royo et al. 2005; Lu ́ıs et al. 2006), and the results obtained here indicate closeness of the Sorraia with the other Iberian breeds, which fits historical documentation."
- dfoidl
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Although there is most likely no reason to assume that the Konik horse is particularly close to the tarpan, I found this interesting Konik horse from Schmidtenhöhe, Germany:  The distinctness of the stripes is remarkable, I think. I came to know that initially Prof. Vetulani started with bay/black animals to select the tarpan genes of the hybrid horses of polish farmers but because of a translation error he selected for gray animals. So the chance to get the genes of the last tarpan population re-united obviously was missed. Are prominent stripes on shoulder and legs a feature which will be selected when improving the primitive breeds for rewilding, @firefly?
- peterdonck
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the striping on back and legs (and ev. forehead) is due to the "dun"-gene, which in a way dilutes the colour of the bodyhair : if the horse is fenotypically bay (E.A.) it will by "D" get an orangy bodycolour. When the horse is fenotypically black (E.aa), meaning the red pigment is not expressed, it will develop by "D" a mousegray colour on the body. By selecting bay and black horses with no dungene (dd), which means without striping, you will never breed a horse out of those with striping (DD or Dd). But on some black horses (EEaa or Eeaa) that do have the Dungene, you might not see or not notice the eelstripe because the Dungene is expressed in a very melanistic way, which means the horse is at the dark end of the Dun-spectrum.
An eelstripe on a horse is completely different from an eelstripe on a bull/cow : bovines have a form of colouration that spreads the black pigment sideways from head to tail which means from a dark shadow on the head, to the sides and underside of the neck, over the sides of the schoulder and the flanks of the rump : the whole body fills in from the front which is allways darker ; at the dark side of the spectrum the black pigment goes up to the back, leaving a large path to finally a very narrow pale stripe over the backspine. This is expressed more as discussed here under the influence of testosteron. Females in bovines but even in horses, tend to be lighter than males, but at the dark end of the spectrum can be black too. When only the black pigment is expressed you will get a creamy eelstripe like in tudanca-bulls ; if the redpigment is expressed next to the black you will have a more orangy eelstripe ; if no black is expressed you will only notice a darker hue on the bull (or cow) spreading from front to tail. I think there is a certain explanation for the 'ojo de perdrix' on red bulls too, but may be that is better on the aurochs-topic...
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Ursus arctos
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Jan 10 2012, 09:09 PM
Post #5
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Autotrophic Organism
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- peterdonck
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from the paper "Coat Color Variation at the Beginning of Horse Domestication" Lidwig & All. 2009 :
We successfully typed eight mutations in six genes (6) responsible for coat color variation for 89 [out of 152 tested; tables S1 to S5 (6)] ancient samples. To assess coat color variation of predomestic horses, we analyzed the bones of wild horses from the Late Pleistocene and Early Holocene found in Siberia, East and Central Europe, and the Iberian Peninsula. We found no variation in the Siberian and European Pleistocene horses, suggesting that these horses were bay or bay-dun in color. There is evidence that the wild type is dun, but, because the nondun mutation has not yet been identified, we cannot distinguish between dun and nondun horses. In contrast, Iberian Early Holocene horses carried both the nonblack allele A (25%) and the black allele a (75%) at the ASIP gene, resulting in four black and four bay horses. An analysis of 21 Neolithic and Copper Age samples, dating to the millennia before archaeological evidence for domestication exists, produced similar allelic patterns. These periods are characterized by an absence of horse bones in the archaeological record for some regions, which prevents the inclusion of Siberian horses from 8000 to 5000 yr B.P. (table S6). East European horses dating to 7000 to 6000 yr B.P. revealed a mixed population (76% bay and 24% black). All these horses are regarded as wild because they clearly predate the earliest evidence for horse husbandry in this region. Because black horses are found neither in Siberia nor in East and Central Europe during the Late Pleistocene, their occurrence in the Early Holocene is probably the result of postglacial immigration or of selection caused by increased forest cover, as recently shown for wolves (7). Human selection is less likely because we observed no other coloration.
A horse like the Sorraia or the Konik in in essence a bay or a black horse, but through the dun-gene the bodycolour gets clearer and the striping occurs, only there is not yet a gene for Dun identified, so there is not yet a test for Dun or non-Dun (unless for certain bloodlines in modern horsebreeding, QH Yellow Jacket)
- peterdonck
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@ dfoidl : selecting for gray is not the same as selecting for mousegray, since mousegray stands genetically for Black + Dun (EaD) while gray stands for "G" on whatever colour : the function of the G-gene (or graying-gene) is preventing the hairshaft of filling with any pigment, which leaves the hair overtime as unpigmented while the skin stays black. This occurs over a period of years and is probably depending on homo- or heterozygosity of G (GG or Gg). The graying-gene G is linked to a faster developping of melanoma. Other colormutations are linked to deafness, nightblindness, intestinalproblems and others .......
- firefly
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- peterdonck
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Quote out of this paper :
Because of its low variability, the Sorraia usually separated from the other breeds when only one type of marker was used, as seen also in Oom & Cothran (1994); Juras et al. (2003); Cothran & Lu ́ıs (2005) and Morais et al. (2005). However, when we used all three types of Quote : "markers the Sorraia clustered with the other Iberian and Iberian-influ- enced breeds. Indeed the Sorraia is considered a primitive horse and is believed to be the primary ancestor of the Iberian horses and therefore an ancestor of light and saddle horses. This theory has not been proven in previous studies using mitochondrial DNA caused by the reduced number of matrilineal lines found for the Sorraia (Jansen et al. 2002; Lu ́ıs et al. 2002a; Lopes et al. 2005; Royo et al. 2005). However, new results from mtDNA analysis (Lu ́ıs et al. 2006) revealed a lost haplotype in the Sorraia breed, which is included in the mtDNA haplogroup recognized for having high frequency in Iberian horses (Lopes et al. 2005; Royo et al. 2005; Lu ́ıs et al. 2006), and the results obtained here indicate closeness of the Sorraia with the other Iberian breeds, which fits historical documentation."
Sorraia is considered to be a primitive horse ( how that primitive means?)? Maybe by one author or by someone else, but surely not by the majority of scientists. Just by being closely related to other iberian breeds ( that was expected already) that doesn´t mean that Sorraia is the ancestor of iberian horses and of light and sadle horses. Lusitano is also related with some of other iberian horses, but isn´t the ancestor of them. Recent genetic studies didn´t ever found wild horses with the color of sorraias, the color known until now were: Bay, Black and Leopard spotted. All the rest, are considered, until now, to be colored by the domestication process. I would love to know that Sorraias and Koniks are indeed closely related with wild horses, but by now, this has been proven as fake. And it will be a tremendous mistake to make up stories with wild horses, since we are cooperating with Rewilding projects, and to reintroduce fake wild horses ( just look at Pleistocene Reserve in Siberia) would bring very bad consequences to the future of Rewilding projects ( not only in therms of credibility but also in therms of efficiency).
- peterdonck
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firefly said : "Sorraia is considered to be a primitive horse ( how that primitive means?)? Maybe by one author or by someone else, but surely not by the majority of scientists."
- Primitive in the meaning as coming before which is known in 'modern' times, in case of horses "before domestication" or "very early after domesticiation", thus before most of the human selection began. - not all scientists are interested in the origine of species, only some are interested in the origine of domestic species, and of those only few have a vast knowledge on breeding and specific genetics So : indeed only very few scientist will take in consideration that Sorraia horses might be a "primitive" horse. Furthermore, I'm afraid that genetic mapping of the origine of species like equus is only at the beginning since only a handfull of genes are identified, as is the case with the genetics behind the DUN-feno/genotype.
firefly said : "Just by being closely related to other iberian breeds ( that was expected already) that doesn´t mean that Sorraia is the ancestor of iberian horses and of light and sadle horses. Lusitano is also related with some of other iberian horses, but isn´t the ancestor of them. Recent genetic studies didn´t ever found wild horses with the color of sorraias, the color known until now were: Bay, Black and Leopard spotted. All the rest, are considered, until now, to be colored by the domestication process."
It is a scientific knowlege that Iberia (Spain & Portugal) from Gibraltar to the Pyrenees, played a special role in the drifting and developping of the equus ferus. You yourself mentioned in another post that Iberia was a refuge-area against ice-ages. If I read the paper mentioned here before by me, it sounds that the rest of europe up to the middle-east might be reconquered by horses up from Iberia. In Iberia you have (and i suppose you should know being Iberic yourself) greatly two types of horse : the "lighter" riding horse (PRE, Lusitano, Alter Real, Losino- which are 'in se' only different "man-picked" breeds ) and the more ponylike type of Garrano, Asturcon, Pottokak etc. The former had a lot of influence by arabian and barb from the Maghreb. The latter belongs to the Celtic poney type to which other old breeds like exmoor and icelandic belong too, based on known demographic drifting. I do not want to fight neither to quarrel about it, but to my belief and to my horse-knowledge the exmoor as well as the sorraia MIGHT be "primitive" descendants of what is considered to be the "tarpan", the predomesticated horse....
Back on color : Scientific studies have found the gene E and A which type as E for expression of eumelanin (black) on the entire body and A for Agouti which codes for the suppression of eumelanin on the neck/barrel/loin/hindquarters, leaving visible only eumelanin on nose, mane, tail and the leggs and making the horse Bay. (if the A codes as 'aa' with 'E', the horse is black, 'A' or 'a' on 'ee' provides a chestnut (entirely red) The gene D for Dun which causes the dilution of the bodyhair and the striping on back, shoulders, leggs and head, but which can act on any type of coloring (basically black-bay-chestnut), has NOT been determinated SO it can NOT YET be found in ancient DNA.
"I would love to know that Sorraias and Koniks are indeed closely related with wild horses, but by now, this has been proven as fake. And it will be a tremendous mistake to make up stories with wild horses, since we are cooperating with Rewilding projects, and to reintroduce fake wild horses ( just look at Pleistocene Reserve in Siberia) would bring very bad consequences to the future of Rewilding projects ( not only in therms of credibility but also in therms of efficiency)".
This is true, but on the other hand it would be very sad to let an ancient horse"breed" slide off into oblivion and after come to the conclusiont that i was really a missing link that slipped to your fingers. Sorraias went already through a tremenduous bottleneck, there numbers are few ...... If you are aware what to look for, you will find a lot of Dun in PRE and Lusitano, only, it is mostly hidden by the Gray-gene.
Scientists have determined the Lp-gene in ancient DNAsamples, only leopard-spotting in horses is polygenetic and besides the Lp, the other genes which codes for the patterns are not yet identified. So this seems jumping to conclusions : Lp stands for the specific "appaloosa-roaning" which makes over time a colorchange, a kind of blotting or mottling of the pigment in the skin, by which you get a very dense patchwork of very small dots of pink and dark skin ; the effect on the hair of the horse is that you get an uneven mingling of white and colored hairs but not the patches as seen in the cavepaintings unless you have the requiered other genes too (Ptn-1 ....)
- peterdonck
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firefly : "Actually there are quite a few of scientific studies, putting apart Sorraia from Primitive and Wild horses. If you want I can provide it, right here."
that would be very nice if you could do that, thanks
firefly : "And I´m not putting them definitely apart as primitive horses, I´m just following the current modern knowledge."
glad to hear that !
firefly : "That doesn´t prove anything in favor of Sorraia. We are currently perfectly aware of the horses that we know that did came from wild horses. All the others need more proof."
all horses come from wild horses, only the distance to that wild horse is different. It is in favor of the sorraia that it is endemic to Iberia, scientifically proved to be one of the main constant biotopes of equus ferus. It's color (Dun) is also in favor : all the other studied colors apart from the basic black-bay-chestnut are epistatic to those and are not an enrichment but rather a loss of quality by the physical repercussions
fiefly : "Exmoor, Garrano, Potokka are all primitive breeds ( being Exmoor the closest to the wild ecotype, I think), yes, but Sorraia in my opinion, surely not."
Can you explain this a little more, I know, if I'll have read the promised papers it should be clear to me, so I'm anxiously awaiting ! As I said, I have no problem with different "primitive" breeds, but to my opinion looking at all the coatcolors of f.i. the pottokak, they are farther remote of primitivity (sabino, tobiano etc.)
firefly : "Also, usually primitive/wild horses have thick jaws, not long, thin jaws. This is not because of the climate ( just forget that) but mainly because of the necessity to be able to crush rough vegetation. Usually wild horses, are adaptable creatures, just like any wild animal with a big geographical distribution, so they need a phenotype to allow them cope with that. Moreover, in mediterranean regions, the vegetation will be tougher and tougher and robust jaws are even more needed."
ever seen a jaw of a goat ? an antilope ? deer ? they are all browsers feeding on grasses, leaves, twiggs, fruits, nuts and bark but they have all very slender jaws though ! PRE, lusitano, sorraia are all horses of southern iberia with a rougher and tougher climate than the lusher and richer north, they all have narrower and more refined jaws than the ponytypes of the northern horses like those mentioned and the exmoor etc. Arabians, Barb, Caspian, Akhal and other Tékés are all of the slender more sorraia-like type but they all live under harsh circumstances. The rewilded horses of the NAmib are all thoroughbred descendants but survive in the desert on shrubs and hard grassstems. Most american mustangs or australian brumbies, all rewilded saddlehorses (mostly) survive on very arid and poorquality vegetation in semideserts, they do not have the massive jaws of heavier types. And i do not think like in rewilded swine, that there is after a couple of hundred years a tendancy to heavier jaws ?!
It is astonishing how modern refined type horses can thrive and proliferate on allmost nothing allthough the common assumption is that they have to be fed on rich supplements, no they don't !!!!
* again on DUN : "it's not known in ancient horses" does not mean it didn't exist in primitive horses, NO ! the gene is not defined yet, so the probability stands ! In the paper other colours mentioned were buckskin and silver, especially buckskin looks like DUN but without the striping and its a double diluting color which means that the homozygous form is more diluted than the heterozygous form in contrast with Dun which is recopied in a very stable way (buckskin is due to the Cream-gene which dilutes the bodycolour, on chestnut it makes palomino and cremello, on bay it makes buckskin and perlino)
theories and opinions should lead to scientific evidence not to assumptions, that is for certain the goal !
- firefly
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- peterdonck
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- Primitive in the meaning as coming before which is known in 'modern' times, in case of horses "before domestication" or "very early after domesticiation", thus before most of the human selection began. - not all scientists are interested in the origine of species, only some are interested in the origine of domestic species, and of those only few have a vast knowledge on breeding and specific genetics So : indeed only very few scientist will take in consideration that Sorraia horses might be a "primitive" horse. Furthermore, I'm afraid that genetic mapping of the origine of species like equus is only at the beginning since only a handfull of genes are identified, as is the case with the genetics behind the DUN-feno/genotype.
Actually there are quite a few of scientific studies, putting apart Sorraia from Primitive and Wild horses. If you want I can provide it, right here. And I´m not putting them definitely apart as primitive horses, I´m just following the current modern knowledge. That doesn´t prove anything in favor of Sorraia. We are currently perfectly aware of the horses that we know that did came from wild horses. All the others need more proof. Exmoor, Garrano, Potokka are all primitive breeds ( being Exmoor the closest to the wild ecotype, I think), yes, but Sorraia in my opinion, surely not. Also, usually primitive/wild horses have thick jaws, not long, thin jaws. This is not because of the climate ( just forget that) but mainly because of the necessity to be able to crush rough vegetation. Usually wild horses, are adaptable creatures, just like any wild animal with a big geographical distribution, so they need a phenotype to allow them cope with that. Moreover, in mediterranean regions, the vegetation will be tougher and tougher and robust jaws are even more needed. Yes, it needs more investigation, because now is not known in wild horses. - peterdonck
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This is true, but on the other hand it would be very sad to let an ancient horse"breed" slide off into oblivion and after come to the conclusiont that i was really a missing link that slipped to your fingers. Sorraias went already through a tremenduous bottleneck, there numbers are few ...... If you are aware what to look for, you will find a lot of Dun in PRE and Lusitano, only, it is mostly hidden by the Gray-gene..
I know who´s breeding Sorraia at the time and it was me who opened a thread on this forum about Sorraia. I did thought that Sorraias were wild horses, but further investigation did proved otherwise. This means, that I´m in favor of this breed protection, but I´m not really that sure about it´s true status. But who thinks on protecting wild horses, why shouldn´t care to protect Garranos, Caballo Gallego, Asturcón or Pottoka as well? At least, they have been proven to derive from true wild horses and are endangered ( not only because less people breed them but also because some of them have been crossbred with domestic horses)... All the rest, are theories and opinions.
- firefly
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- peterdonck
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firefly : "Actually there are quite a few of scientific studies, putting apart Sorraia from Primitive and Wild horses. If you want I can provide it, right here."
that would be very nice if you could do that, thanks
firefly : "And I´m not putting them definitely apart as primitive horses, I´m just following the current modern knowledge."
glad to hear that !
firefly : "That doesn´t prove anything in favor of Sorraia. We are currently perfectly aware of the horses that we know that did came from wild horses. All the others need more proof."
all horses come from wild horses, only the distance to that wild horse is different. It is in favor of the sorraia that it is endemic to Iberia, scientifically proved to be one of the main constant biotopes of equus ferus. It's color (Dun) is also in favor : all the other studied colors apart from the basic black-bay-chestnut are epistatic to those and are not an enrichment but rather a loss of quality by the physical repercussions
fiefly : "Exmoor, Garrano, Potokka are all primitive breeds ( being Exmoor the closest to the wild ecotype, I think), yes, but Sorraia in my opinion, surely not."
Can you explain this a little more, I know, if I'll have read the promised papers it should be clear to me, so I'm anxiously awaiting ! As I said, I have no problem with different "primitive" breeds, but to my opinion looking at all the coatcolors of f.i. the pottokak, they are farther remote of primitivity (sabino, tobiano etc.)
firefly : "Also, usually primitive/wild horses have thick jaws, not long, thin jaws. This is not because of the climate ( just forget that) but mainly because of the necessity to be able to crush rough vegetation. Usually wild horses, are adaptable creatures, just like any wild animal with a big geographical distribution, so they need a phenotype to allow them cope with that. Moreover, in mediterranean regions, the vegetation will be tougher and tougher and robust jaws are even more needed."
ever seen a jaw of a goat ? an antilope ? deer ? they are all browsers feeding on grasses, leaves, twiggs, fruits, nuts and bark but they have all very slender jaws though ! PRE, lusitano, sorraia are all horses of southern iberia with a rougher and tougher climate than the lusher and richer north, they all have narrower and more refined jaws than the ponytypes of the northern horses like those mentioned and the exmoor etc. Arabians, Barb, Caspian, Akhal and other Tékés are all of the slender more sorraia-like type but they all live under harsh circumstances. The rewilded horses of the NAmib are all thoroughbred descendants but survive in the desert on shrubs and hard grassstems. Most american mustangs or australian brumbies, all rewilded saddlehorses (mostly) survive on very arid and poorquality vegetation in semideserts, they do not have the massive jaws of heavier types. And i do not think like in rewilded swine, that there is after a couple of hundred years a tendancy to heavier jaws ?!
It is astonishing how modern refined type horses can thrive and proliferate on allmost nothing allthough the common assumption is that they have to be fed on rich supplements, no they don't !!!!
* again on DUN : "it's not known in ancient horses" does not mean it didn't exist in primitive horses, NO ! the gene is not defined yet, so the probability stands ! In the paper other colours mentioned were buckskin and silver, especially buckskin looks like DUN but without the striping and its a double diluting color which means that the homozygous form is more diluted than the heterozygous form in contrast with Dun which is recopied in a very stable way (buckskin is due to the Cream-gene which dilutes the bodycolour, on chestnut it makes palomino and cremello, on bay it makes buckskin and perlino)
theories and opinions should lead to scientific evidence not to assumptions, that is for certain the goal !
Yes, I can provide the articles, just wait a bit for it. «all horses come from wild horses, only the distance to that wild horse is different. It is in favor of the sorraia that it is endemic to Iberia, scientifically proved to be one of the main constant biotopes of equus ferus. It's color (Dun) is also in favor : all the other studied colors apart from the basic black-bay-chestnut are epistatic to those and are not an enrichment but rather a loss of quality by the physical repercussions » All horses come from wild horses, but some are closer to their ancestors than others. Sorraia «ecotype» is endemic from Iberia? What do you think about it´s similarity with Koniks? «ever seen a jaw of a goat ? an antilope ? deer ? they are all browsers feeding on grasses, leaves, twiggs, fruits, nuts and bark but they have all very slender jaws though ! PRE, lusitano, sorraia are all horses of southern iberia with a rougher and tougher climate than the lusher and richer north, they all have narrower and more refined jaws than the ponytypes of the northern horses like those mentioned and the exmoor etc. Arabians, Barb, Caspian, Akhal and other Tékés are all of the slender more sorraia-like type but they all live under harsh circumstances. The rewilded horses of the NAmib are all thoroughbred descendants but survive in the desert on shrubs and hard grassstems. Most american mustangs or australian brumbies, all rewilded saddlehorses (mostly) survive on very arid and poorquality vegetation in semideserts, they do not have the massive jaws of heavier types. And i do not think like in rewilded swine, that there is after a couple of hundred years a tendancy to heavier jaws ?! It is astonishing how modern refined type horses can thrive and proliferate on allmost nothing allthough the common assumption is that they have to be fed on rich supplements, no they don't !!!» We are talking about wild equids, not about pigs, deers or goats. Have a look on zebras, przewalski horses, kulans and tell me how are their jaws? The same for the Exmoor/Garrano ecotype. «It is astonishing how modern refined type horses can thrive and proliferate on allmost nothing allthough the common assumption is that they have to be fed on rich supplements, no they don't !!!!» Yes, domesticated alike animals can thrive in the wild. There are also feral goats, cattle, sheep, dogs, that don´t look alike their ancestors, so I don´t see the point of it «* again on DUN : "it's not known in ancient horses" does not mean it didn't exist in primitive horses, NO ! the gene is not defined yet, so the probability stands ! In the paper other colours mentioned were buckskin and silver, especially buckskin looks like DUN but without the striping and its a double diluting color which means that the homozygous form is more diluted than the heterozygous form in contrast with Dun which is recopied in a very stable way (buckskin is due to the Cream-gene which dilutes the bodycolour, on chestnut it makes palomino and cremello, on bay it makes buckskin and perlino) theories and opinions should lead to scientific evidence not to assumptions, that is for certain the goal !» Yes, the probability stands. How big is the probability, then? Theories and opinions should lead to scientific evidence? Yes and no. Theories can lead us to the wrong way. The only good thing is that opinions and theories, make people think and re-think and that can lead us to be closer to the truth.
- firefly
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- peterdonck
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@ firefly : I'll wait till I will have read the concerning articles, to further answer on in this thread. Hope to read them soon....
Sorry to ask you, but I´m curious about this, since you don´t gather any scientific data to support your theory about Sorraia being a wild horse ( just hypothesis), what keeps you thinking that they are a primitive type of horse? A probability based in what? What´s the interest behind all this? The actual Sorraia herd is terribly inbred. And looking at living Sorraias, we see bay and brown popping all the time, we see that they aren´t a synthetic breed, we see that their skulls vary a lot, all in all, we don´t see what´s typical in primitive horse breed. And more importantly, Iberia is teaming with horse breeds that derive from wild horses and that are pretty closely related with them. Some in fact, are more wild horses than anything else. It´s kind obvious that there were more likely local domestication events taking place, unless there were massive wild horse importations ( highly unlikely). So having in mind, about this consisten basis, why we would consider Sorraias, as primitive wild horses, when they are so different from them? Are Sorraia of an unkown type of wild horse? If so, supported by what? First article to begin with it´s this one « Luís et al. (including Professor Cothran), Genetic diversity and relationships of Portuguese and other horse breeds based on protein and microsatellite loci variation, 2007We see that Sorraia isn´t the ancestor of Lusitano and Andalucian. What´s the explanation for this? Much more to come.
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Ursus arctos
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Jan 10 2012, 09:12 PM
Post #6
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Autotrophic Organism
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Although there is most likely no reason to assume that the Konik horse is particularly close to the tarpan, I found this interesting Konik horse from Schmidtenhöhe, Germany:  The distinctness of the stripes is remarkable, I think. I came to know that initially Prof. Vetulani started with bay/black animals to select the tarpan genes of the hybrid horses of polish farmers but because of a translation error he selected for gray animals. So the chance to get the genes of the last tarpan population re-united obviously was missed. Are prominent stripes on shoulder and legs a feature which will be selected when improving the primitive breeds for rewilding, @firefly?
I think this horse has more of the coloring of a DUN-horse than one of a Wild-BAY-horse  the yellowish bodycolor, the black mane (the so-called "intermingled white hairs" are not really intermingled but are the guardhairs of the mane which grow longer than the rest of the coat, and grow up left and right from the black eelstripe running through on the neck, from which the black manehairs grow ), the darkcoloured legs, the remarquable shoulder- and neckstripes, the refined head, the dark bellyshadow .....
- peterdonck
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firefly : "Sorry to ask you, but I´m curious about this, since you don´t gather any scientific data to support your theory about Sorraia being a wild horse ( just hypothesis), what keeps you thinking that they are a primitive type of horse? A probability based in what? What´s the interest behind all this?"
why your assumption that I'm not gathering scientific data ? I know the Luis-article, here's one sentence out of it : "Indeed the Sorraia is considered a primitive horse and is believed to be the primary ancestor of the Iberian horses and therefore an ancestor of light and saddle horses. This theory has not been proven in previous studies using mitochondrial DNA caused by the reduced number of matrilineal lines found for the Sorraia (Jansen et al. 2002; Lu ́ıs et al. 2002a; Lopes et al. 2005; Royo et al. 2005). However, new results from mtDNA analysis (Lu ́ıs et al. 2006) revealed a lost haplotype in the Sorraia breed, which is included in the mtDNA haplogroup recognized for having high frequency in Iberian horses (Lopes et al. 2005; Royo et al. 2005; Lu ́ıs et al. 2006), and the results obtained here indicate closeness of the Sorraia with the other Iberian breeds, which fits historical documentation."
in 'the Origin and History of MtDNA lineages in Domestic horses'(2010 Cieslak et All.) the sorraia is also mentioned as a primitive horse : when you look at the table S5 Ancient haplotypes occurrence in primitive breeds, you may notice that the "leftover"(because of the genetic bottleneck) haplotypes match very well with Asturcon, Garrano, Losino, lusitano and other more diversified ancient "breeds".
furthermore I think you need to be more clear about "wild" -"primitive" - "predomesticated" - "earlydomesticated" and "domesticated without much deriving from the original type". Mustangs and brumbies are wild horses too, because they live, survive and proliferate without human interference, except for the rude heli-culling or the gathering-till-extinction by the BLM of course. Primitive and predomesticated means they were moulded-by-nature, not picked, selected and altered by man.
firefly : "The actual Sorraia herd is terribly inbred. And looking at living Sorraias, we see bay and brown popping all the time, we see that they aren´t a synthetic breed, we see that their skulls vary a lot, all in all, we don´t see what´s typical in primitive horse breed.
on colour you have to be more distinctive on bay and brown, I gues you mean bay (E.A. red body, black mane and tail) and chestnut (eeA. or eeaa - red body, mane and tail) they are expressions of pheo-and eumelanin (mind the aurochsens, the principle is the same). The Dungene is epistatic to black, bay and chestnut and causes lightning of the body and the striping. Since D is dominant and as ALL horses today, sorraias are neither completely pure, which means non-dun or "d" occurs too, when 2 fenotypically Duncolored sorraias mate, but when they are genotipically "Dd", than you have a 25% occurence of non-dun foals, which means no striping-pattern nor bodydilution !!!! if the cross is EeaaDd x EeAaDd (f.i.) you have the possibility of a "E.A.dd"-foal which means a plain bay foal with no striping and no body-dilution as well as "ee..dd"-foals which are just plain chestnut (all red) or even "E.aadd" plain black (instead of grulla) The occurence of these foals creates the possibility to genotype the parents without the Dun-gene being identified as both heterozygous for Dun, which should be considered more in breeding practices and I must say that too few breeders are really aware of color (and other) genetics ! Only by applying this you can grow a breed to homozygosity (think about that when you go crossing away cattlebreeds for recreating an aurochs !)
Furthermore : being "terribly inbred" does not mean the "breed" is not primitive, but it definetly means it is high time to save it !
And more importantly, Iberia is teaming with horse breeds that derive from wild horses and that are pretty closely related with them. Some in fact, are more wild horses than anything else. It´s kind obvious that there were more likely local domestication events taking place, unless there were massive wild horse importations ( highly unlikely). So having in mind, about this consisten basis, why we would consider Sorraias, as primitive wild horses, when they are so different from them? Are Sorraia of an unkown type of wild horse? If so, supported by what?"
I think you make an emotional and mental error when you compare the sorraia to (your words), "a typical primitive breed" or simply " wild horses". You make the assumption that "wild" or "primitive" horses all should look like massiveheaded, shortlegged and hairy poneys while on the other hand and in aurochs-matters you are looking desperately to a fenotypical differentiation between bos primigenius primigenius, mauretanicus and namadicus ?!!
firefly : "First article to begin with it´s this one « Luís et al. (including Professor Cothran), Genetic diversity and relationships of Portuguese and other horse breeds based on protein and microsatellite loci variation, 2007 We see that Sorraia isn´t the ancestor of Lusitano and Andalucian. What´s the explanation for this?"
what we see here objectively is that the sorraia clusters with the other iberian horsestrains, not that it not should be considered "primitive", I think it is still in the running (on the phylogentic tree it is even on a lower branch than Anda and Luso)
Much more to come.
give it to me :o)
- firefly
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- peterdonck
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why your assumption that I'm not gathering scientific data ? I know the Luis-article, here's one sentence out of it : "Indeed the Sorraia is considered a primitive horse and is believed to be the primary ancestor of the Iberian horses and therefore an ancestor of light and saddle horses. This theory has not been proven in previous studies using mitochondrial DNA caused by the reduced number of matrilineal lines found for the Sorraia (Jansen et al. 2002; Lu ́ıs et al. 2002a; Lopes et al. 2005; Royo et al. 2005). However, new results from mtDNA analysis (Lu ́ıs et al. 2006) revealed a lost haplotype in the Sorraia breed, which is included in the mtDNA haplogroup recognized for having high frequency in Iberian horses (Lopes et al. 2005; Royo et al. 2005; Lu ́ıs et al. 2006), and the results obtained here indicate closeness of the Sorraia with the other Iberian breeds, which fits historical documentation."
in 'the Origin and History of MtDNA lineages in Domestic horses'(2010 Cieslak et All.) the sorraia is also mentioned as a primitive horse : when you look at the table S5 Ancient haplotypes occurrence in primitive breeds, you may notice that the "leftover"(because of the genetic bottleneck) haplotypes match very well with Asturcon, Garrano, Losino, lusitano and other more diversified ancient "breeds".)
Again the same reference? And still nothing is concrete about Sorraia being a living wild horse. We can think on hypothesis? Surely yes. But that´s it. A certain breed can be also primitive, which means that was moulded by man, but did still retained some of it´s primitivity. Wild, predomesticated usually means, that we are seing an animal that was still not domesticated. I agree that domesticated breeds can turn wild again but this doesn´t say anything about being predomesticated. Mustangs are feral horses, not truly «wild» horses. But there´s no big point around this, I think that´s pretty clear for all what I did meant. Are Sorraia predomesticated? It´s not me who has to prove this. And do you think that there were predomesticated horses with dun color? Why this color did never was «genotyped» in predomesticated/therefore wild horses? On my thread about Sorraia, I did said that bones are needed to prove Sorraia as a predomesticated/primitive/wild horse, so I´m opened to accept new realities. Are you opened to accept that Sorraias maybe aren´t a predomesticated horse? For me it´s no problem about saving it ( it´s a nice breed with some nice horses), the problem is making propaganda about it as a predomesticated horse, when there isn´t any proof of such. Not even remotely close to that. I didn´t made any close assumption, I was merely pretty realistic. Could you give me consistent basal examples, of wild equids ( predomesticated, hun) , whatever is the specie like the ones that I did gave, with long and thin jaws? Regarding aurochs, I guess that you maybe are confusing things; I´m not desperately trying to find differences in phenotypes between the 3 known subspecies, I was trying to relate phenotype, history and genetic evidence, to get the best picture of it, not making general assumptions based on zero evidence and then confusing people that´s interested in the truth, with marginal matters and not nuclear matters. I think that my approach is realistic and aims much more than a theory. My point is, my procedure may be wrong, but I can´t find a better one... I promise that if I find a better method, I´ll use it, promptly. Clusters with other iberian breeds? Of course, it has iberian origin. But that´s not important. Sorraia very few supporters like to say that they are the «father» of Lusitano. If so where´s the proof? Don´t take me badly, but this is what confuses me the most. We are in 2011, not 1920... Nowadays we have genetics as a good working tool. It´s not everything, but it helps. How someone, nowadays, can make such a claim ( aiming Science with it) without evidence? I would love to know that Sorraia are a truly predomesticated horse ( even if not pure anymore), I would support it 100%, but it´s just sad that no evidence appears. - peterdonck
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give it to me )
I´ll post soon, no worries. On the meanwhile, please post your evidences to support Sorraia as a predomesticated horse. Not more guess-who theories, if possible.
- peterdonck
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FF : "Again the same reference? And still nothing is concrete about Sorraia being a living wild horse.We can think on hypothesis? Surely yes. But that´s it."
of course, I never told the contrary, but at least geneticists seem to catalogue the sorraia between the primitive horses (and it wasn't because I asked them)
FF : "Are Sorraia predomesticated? It´s not me who has to prove this."
me neither, I'am not a geneticist, only an interested backyardhorsebreeder who is looking for certain scientifical evidences of certain questions arising over the decades ....
FF : "And do you think that there were predomesticated horses with dun color? Why this color did never was «genotyped» in predomesticated/therefore wild horses? On my thread about Sorraia, I did said that bones are needed to prove Sorraia as a predomesticated/primitive/wild horse, so I´m opened to accept new realities. Are you opened to accept that Sorraias maybe aren´t a predomesticated horse?"
I' am not thinking about DUN, the dungene has NOT YET BEEN IDENTIFIED IN H-O-R-S-E-S !!!!! be they ancient or modern !!!! there is only a DUN test that is based on markers of a certain bloodline of AQHA, "Yellow Jacket" who was a red-dun (chestnut with dun).
and YES I'm open for the scientifical fact that Sorraias could not be predomesticated. I'll repeat it again : I have never claimed sorraias to be predomesticated horse, I only do not want to throw the sorraia away as being NOT a predomesticated descendant in favour of only ONE other old breed, in case the exmoor-pony. I think the possibility still stands that very different breeds could be descendants of predomesticated horses. Hope that is clear !
by the way, is your thread about Sorraias this one, or a different one, I didn't find one so far (which doesn't mean there is none !)
FF : "For me it´s no problem about saving it ( it´s a nice breed with some nice horses), the problem is making propaganda about it as a predomesticated horse, when there isn´t any proof of such. Not even remotely close to that."
last sentence is at your count ! about the propaganda, even scientist make that fault (see the auroch), I go for scientifical hard facts the propaganda Dutch scientists/biologists/ecologists/ or even pseudo-scientists now make on the exmoor, is as objectionable since there is not yet proof (to my knowledge) that this is the case, or if you have more documents about this, I'd like to read them, I'm allways prone to bias my knowledge....
on the mandibel-item : as with color, I do believe in a certain range within a genotype. Narrower horsejaws are not thàt narrow, they still cope perfectly with their function....
FF : "Clusters with other iberian breeds? Of course, it has iberian origin. But that´s not important.Sorraia very few supporters like to say that they are the «father» of Lusitano. If so where´s the proof?"
supporters of the sorraia or the lusitano ? I know that problem with horsebreeders, it's not the only breed .... try selling this one to a QH-breeder : QHs have a genepool in the 19th centuries mustang.
about the iberian clustering : even that is a statement that had to be backed up with genetic research, you can not put that down without scientifical backup. And in the light of origines it IS important that it at least clusters with the other breeds. otherwise you just jump to conclusions.
On the sorraia as a predomesticated horse : there or no evidences for the moment, only clues that point in that direction (mind the word "point") To my knowledge it's the same with the exmoor, garrano, asturcon etc.
- firefly
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- peterdonck
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FF : "Again the same reference? And still nothing is concrete about Sorraia being a living wild horse.We can think on hypothesis? Surely yes. But that´s it."
of course, I never told the contrary, but at least geneticists seem to catalogue the sorraia between the primitive horses (and it wasn't because I asked them)
No, Sorraia isn´t catalogued among other primitive horses. Read carefully what´s written on your own source. They are considered primitive ( by certain authors) but that has not been proven yet. Here´s another article stating my point: J. Lira, Ancient DNA reveals traces of Iberian Neolithic and Bronze Age lineages in modern Iberian horses, 2009 “Moreover, we found no relationship among the ancient Iberian samples and the Sorraia horses.” “Lastly, our data do not support the Sorraia horses as a primitive predomestic lineage, in contrast to a previous claim (D’Andrade 1945).” - these two statements speak for themselves. Yes, that´s clear. I do think also that we have to protect domestic breeds. But by protecting Exmoor and treat it like it should be, it won´t necessary exclude Sorraia and lead it to extinction. No, it isn´t this one. Unfortunately, I´m not worried about it. Please if you have anything to say about aurochs, stick those points on the proper thread ( Iberian Fighting Bull thread). We know that these bulls aren´t aurochs, but the thread generalized into that direction. I understand your point, as you seem to use them as examples a lot, but if you are interested please adress the aurochs subject there. And yes, I can find studies on Exmoor and also on other related primitive breeds. I think also that´s pretty possible to recreate the iberian wild horse ( North ecotype), just by using certain ancient iberian breeds. Some Sorraia supporters, and if you know about someone else, then you can include that someone else as well. Yes exactly. One more: Roya et al., The Origins of Iberian Horses Assessed via Mitochondrial DNA, 2005 “ Furthermore, the hypothesis that the Sorraias represent the ancestors of the present Southern Iberian horses (d’Andrade 1945) would not be well supported on a maternal genetic basis. Haplotypes present in Sorraias do not cluster with the more frequent mtDNA haplotypes in Iberian horses (our cluster Ia), although they are not a genetic rarity in the total Iberian horse population.”- Sorraia is not an ancestor of Lusitano and other Iberian horses, as claimed by D’Andrade - peterdonck
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On the sorraia as a predomesticated horse : there or no evidences for the moment, only clues that point in that direction (mind the word "point") To my knowledge it's the same with the exmoor, garrano, asturcon etc.
Yes, I know what point means. On this case I see an unsupported theory and basically zero clues to «point» on that direction. If you have more clues please, post it here, and I may see what your «point» means.
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Ursus arctos
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Jan 10 2012, 09:27 PM
Post #7
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Autotrophic Organism
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Hi, here I'am with a first reply. I will feed it to you in pieces because all in one is really to much (in time and words). Firefly, I did find your other thread here on "iberian tarpan" and saw you made a complete U-turn, a 180° whirling twist after reading the document which is kind of a pamhlet against the sorraia, discrediting it's main defenders and preservers, by Dr. Historian Henri Kerkdijk-Otten who is professionaly linked to Project Tauros and the restocking of european wilderness projects. He is obviously not a geneticist and to my finding not the best interpreter of scientific papers on genetic linking. Since our last post that i had to answer it became clear to me that countering the points of Dr.H.K.O was the best way of answering you. ( by the way, you made another Uturn on the aurochs when you first labeled the iberian fighting bull as completely inbred and unuseful, and finally ended up with the contrary, but maybe later more on that !) So, here comes the first part :
dr. Henri Kerkdijk-Otten The Sorraia horse
Dr.H.K.O : it is very hard to imagine where to begin with, since the Sorraia story seems to be deeply rooted, while no substantial evidence has ever been delivered. As a historian, this worries me, because the public and also the politics (those actually in charge of protecting nature) deserve to know the truth. I will try to make some sense of the available information and studies carried out. First of all I want to make clear that it is not my intention, on coping and countering the points made here by Historian Henri Kerkdijk-Otten, to favour only one strain of horses still estimated as primitive. Since there is still a wide variety of rustic wood- and wetland poneys and a more limited variety slender steppe-type-horses but all of this old “breeds” went undeniably and without exception through genetic bottlenecks, they all deserve protection and a fair chance on renewed proliferation.
Dr.H.K.O : To begin with, the story as laid out by Dr. d’Andrade gives some relevant clues. In the 20ties of the 20th century, he saw some horses from a distance that he thought would have to be wild horses, because they looked like the Tarpan. - First of all; despite Dr. d’Andrade being a hippologist, we have to bear in mind that at that times the field of archaeology was still in its infancy or at some places non existing. Archaeozoology as a separate science wasn’t even discovered yet. The knowledge about true wild horses was very rudimentary at best and the knowledge about prehistoric horses was also very, very rudimentary. Some stylized sketches from cave paintings do not provide enough clues to breed a whole race upon.
I’m sure Dr D’Andrade was in his time a scientist in his own right and for sure a fine horseman knowing the prominent horsemanship of the portugese ginetes and their dedication to the stamina and pedigree of their horses, above all in a era in which horses still had a daily function at work or leisure. The horses of portugal are widely known because of their agility and swiftness needed for the work with cattle, de lidia or not, and for the performance in the arenas de rejoneo. Horses were simply part of the life and lifestyle of a well educated countryman like Dr. D’andrade. Nobody can be blamed for the lack of sofisticated tools in his time because of them not being developped yet. And yes in the early 20th century sciences weren’t yet that split up that dr’s in one or another workfield lost the oversight and the connection with other puzzlefields. Even now with all the ongoing developping of techniques and molecular possibilities, alle scientific papers can not do more than being very rudimental and precautionary in putting down conclusions as we will see further on….. So even now, very little is known on the true wild horse since it does not exist anymore and what is left are hypotheses and suppositions in need of scientific and peerreviewed backup. Even the discussion on wether and when an ancestor of modern horse can be considered “wild” or “predomesticated” is still running.
Dr.H.K.O- It is inconceivable that in the twenties of the twentieth century there would still roam a totally pure form of wild horse as such, or without any influx of domesticated genes. This sounds more unbelievable, because Dr. d’Andrade saw them in one of the most densely populated areas of Portugal. Anyone buying that story should contact Professor Vera Eisenmann. She is the world expert in horse evolution and will back up my conclusions.
1920 is almost a century ago and for people up in their thirties now it’s very difficult to imagine a world without laptop, I-phone or even cars and hardly electricity. For them it is also difficult to imagine a world so close but yet so distant if you only have your two feet to walk on, which was the case for most of the rural folks in those days. A cart drawn by a donkey or a feable horse was the best they could hope for, allthough already cars were racing in upcoming numbers through the sandpaths, dirtways and dusttracks… I do not know what densely populated means in rural portugal a century ago, in a country of extensive cattlebreeding, corkoaks and garrigueshrubs, but I can imagine a band of horses dwelling on a vast huntingarea with rocky hills, shrubs, sparse trees and plenty ways to cover up, skiddle away on the least sign of danger and aided by a local population which has known of their existance all their lives but never took an interest in, or it was to considering them as a nuisance, a source of meat, a living moving shootingpracticetarget for the weekly partridgehunt, in disregard of their origin, their specific colorpattern and conformation, no more than stray horses with no owner, much like american mustangs or australian brumbies. Dr D’Andrade clearly states that before his stumble upon the herd, he had noticed the foaling of strawcolored and striped colts and fillies from pure Andalucian breeding throughout the south of Iberia. Even now you can notice such colts, but mostly the stripes and straw disappear within a few years because of the dominant and widespread graying-gene.
In the following text you can feel the dedication and the keen eye of Dr. D’Andrade to who it was apparent the herd of sorraias was something special, contrary to his fellowmen who didn’t notice the things he saw and very clearly described. I want to mention further that the intiatives dr d’Andrade took were at his own account, in his own time, on his own property, it was not a governamental initiative nor a subsidised scientific project, which properly shows his very deep dedication. The same dedication I feel ont the website on sorraias of Hardy Oelke, from which this translation of the text by Dr. D’Andrade comes. I do not know Hardy Oelke in the flesh, but aware of the “Deutches Gründlichkeit” and convinced by the intensive information he displays on the site (which I’am already following for several years !) as well as in his book (Born Survivors on the eve of extinction) I am convinced of the reliability of the translation. D’Andrade clearly observed the band of horses, writing later : “in 1920, on a hunting trip in the region of Coruche, on the lower Sorraia (river), on the 'Sesmaria' land, I saw a herd of ca. 30 individuals, more than half of them were light duns, some were grullas, many with superabundant stripes, and generally in all aspects absolutely wild, or primitive, as if they were a species of zebra, or a hemionus (halfass) species. When I later focused my attention on these characteristics which I referred to in my various studies, I was able to find animals with these particular coat characteristics in all areas of the Tagus (Tejo) valley, the Alto Alentejo, as well as in the Guadalquivir valley, all together more than 300 individuals.” He there made up his mind to try to recover a breeding herd for his estate where he wanted to give them an as natural as possible “wild” life in the typical semi-arid conditions of the south of portugal. In his discriptions he did not mention the tarpan.
- firefly
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- peterdonck
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Hi, here I'am with a first reply. I will feed it to you in pieces because all in one is really to much (in time and words). Firefly, I did find your other thread here on "iberian tarpan" and saw you made a complete U-turn, a 180° whirling twist after reading the document which is kind of a pamhlet against the sorraia, discrediting it's main defenders and preservers,
«U» turn? Did you read the entire thread at all? Key point: What was said in the end? To find if Sorraia are true wild horses we need genetic evidences. We need bones, we need samples... If Sorraia people are so interested in defending Sorraia status as a true wild horse, why they don´t back it up with scientific evidences? I would be really glad if Sorraia are true wild horses (see «iberian tarpan» thread for raw evidence), why people would question that? - peterdonck
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( by the way, you made another Uturn on the aurochs when you first labeled the iberian fighting bull as completely inbred and unuseful, and finally ended up with the contrary, but maybe later more on that !)
Finnaly ended up on the contrary? Care to develop this subject on the proper thread, please? We can find examples of good iberian fighting bulls ( similar to aurochs), but if we can get better examples inside other breeds, why we should use I. F. bulls to recreate aurochs?? And even if I did a real «U» turn, that should be called a learning process just as real Science, which is always dynamics, constantly changing and improving. Is not a old, obsolete, frozen in time, knowledge branch. And now my opinion, about your answer on the Henri points... You barely did introduced anything new and pertinent. I feel disappointed. Sorraia supporters find really that difficult to collect hairs ( with follicle) from their horses to DNA testing? Wild Iberian horse bones can be found in some official Institutions, so what are Sorraia supporters waiting for? And so many other things can be done.... Because I already said to Hardy, if he wants something realistic done around status change on Sorraia, we need scientific evidence. More/same reports from 1930 won´t really help at all, I´m sorry.
- firefly
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http://ravenseyrie.blogspot.com/Nice to see a Lusitano horse near Sorraia horses. It´s like a giant among them. I think that Andrade is a genuine person and maybe he did saw something curious ( though his procedure after that is questionable). I just wonder what horses (?) would be those that he saw on the first time, while he was hunting. Because feral horses that may come from southern iberian horses, don´t have their coat filled with superabundant stripes ( just look at Sorraias). Looking at his draws, those horses did had incredibly big sized stripes on their coats. After that no more of those horses were ever seen like that. Was he lying? I really don´t think so... The problem is that after that, he did never was able to get horses like that again.
- peterdonck
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FF : To find if Sorraia are true wild horses we need genetic evidences. We need bones, we need samples... If Sorraia people are so interested in defending Sorraia status as a true wild horse, why they don´t back it up with scientific evidences? I would be really glad if Sorraia would be true wild horses (see «iberian tarpan» thread for raw evidence), why people would question that? Sorraia supporters find really that difficult to collect hairs ( with folicule) from their horses to DNA testing? Wild Iberian horse bones can be found in some official Institutions, so what are Sorraia supporters waiting for?
2002 - Jansen et Al. : MtDNA and the origins of the domestic horse Materials and Methods Samples. DNA was extracted from the hair-roots of 318 unrelated horses of 25 breeds and varieties from Austria, Britain, Ger- many, Morocco, Portugal, Spain, and the United States of America. Most of the samples were collected randomly by their breeders, who were able to document the ancestry of each horse, usually for at least five generations.
Amongst the horses taken samples of there were Sorraias.
FF : And even if I did a real «U» turn, that should be called a learning process just as real Science, which is always dynamics, constantly changing and improving. Is not a old, obsolete, frozen in time, knowledge branch.
Right you are ! I like Open minds and balancing brainprocesses !
FF : And now my opinion, about your answer on the Henri points... You barely did introduced anything new and pertinent. I feel disappointed.
Hold your tears for a moment, Mosca de Fuego ! I told you, there is more to come, I'm not finished.... this was only a first part ! More answers in the morning .....
- peterdonck
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- firefly
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http://ravenseyrie.blogspot.com/Nice to see a Lusitano horse near Sorraia horses. It´s like a giant among them. I think that Andrade is a genuine person and maybe he did saw something curious ( though his procedure after that is questionable). I just wonder what horses (?) would be those that he saw on the first time, while he was hunting. Because feral horses that may come from southern iberian horses, don´t have their coat filled with superabundant stripes ( just look at Sorraias). Looking at his draws, those horses did had incredibly big sized stripes on their coats. After that no more of those horses were ever seen like that. Was he lying? I really don´t think so... The problem is that after that, he did never was able to get horses like that again.
Dr D'Andrade was surely an erudit man, even at his time there was litterature about zoology which he for sure must have read. Above that he did study excavated remains, described and published his findings on them. Since his rediscovering of the sorraiahorses and the restoration of his own small herd he made a full record of all their descendants with notes on every horse. This work is now taken over by the Sorraia-studbook and one of the best kept registries in the horseworld. You say his "procedure" is questionable : observing, sampling of individuals, comparing and selecting, bringing them together in a likely biotope as the one they were retrieved from and further intensely documenting them. I can see the parallels clearly in projects as TaurOs and others including the rewilding of the Przewalskis. What is the differene in retrieving exmoorponies from a semi-feral status (in which every animal has its owner), deplacing them to a more or less likely biotope, and managing them in a "scientifical" way which is based on the longexisting extensive technique of keeping cattle, horses, sheep and such in a semiwild status with annually culling by man for different purposes (riding,shearing, meat ....) and influencing the phenotype (and thus the genotype) by adding and outpulling certain males in the light of ceretain viewpoints as is the case with konikhorses as well as with retuertas from the Donana-reserve (those horses are very much influenced by the spanish PRE and Carthusian andalusian, they all have owners and can only be kept ungoing acording quotas by the governamental supervisor...) Maybe some excerpts of "the Natural History of horses with memoir of Gesner" printed in 1866, written by Charles Hamilton Smith in a era in which communication was restricted to the library and the eyewitness reports (spoken and written) of travellers which were certainly not zoologist, through vast areas, with uninterested residents and barriered by languages en dialects . The first fragment really shows that not much has changed since then. (I'will post another fragment in the light of the DUN-colour lateron ) “The natural history of horses with memoir of Gesner” 1866 by Charles Hamilton Smith THE WILD HORSE : page 146 : “...Having already furnished some description of the ancient history of the animal, we can now, before we proceed to detail that of the races at present diffused over the surface of the world, enter upon the question of the wild horse, - one which naturalists are not wholly agreed on : we shall make some remarks on varieties now extant which appear to have a claim to be distinct, being regarded as such by the natives of the localities where they reside ; and examine whether they, like the differently coloured forms of horse already noticed are species osculating with others in their original state of liberty, or mark one or more races that have returned to their primitive condition and resued manners and habits conformable with theri organization, after they had been under the dominian of man, at an naterior period more or less remote. On the one hand, differences cannot be consistently drawn from facts not immediately in the reach physiology, without a careful consideration of the data that must justify them ; nor, on the other, can any advance be obtained in this direction of the natural sciences, without the license and use of some daring in the solution of propositions depending in a certain degree upon induction from testimonial authority...”
- peterdonck
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HKO : Connections with the Tarpan are made as well by Sorraia lovers. Mister Gmelini is the premier source about the Tarpan. He described a very small stocky pony from the steppes of the Ukraine, with uni-colored short curly manes, uni-colored black tail. His general description has been proven by studies and measurements that were carried out by Professor Vera Eisenmann [personal communications]. - Gmelin said literally: "„Die größten wilden Pferde sind kaum so groß wie die kleinsten russischen" = "The largest wild horses are hardly the size of the smallest Russian ones" (by "die kleinsten russischen/the smallest Russian ones" he evidently meant Russian domestic horses). He did not use the term "Pony", nor did he give any real parameters as to their size. We can only guess what size the smallest Russian horses were, and whatever they were, the largest wild ones (Tarpans) were either that size or a little smaller. This easily leaves room for Tarpans of 13,3 or possibly even 14 hands, although it could mean a size of about 13 hands. If he would have said : "a very small pony"--well, a very small pony would be a miniature pony, or certainly not more than an average Shetland pony. There is no basis in any of the material that was handed down to assume that the Tarpan was like a small Shetland.
C.Hamilton-Smith 1866 : “In the woods and plains of Poland an Prussia there were wild horses to a late period. Beauplan asserts their existence in the Ukraine, and Erasmus Stella, in his work ‘ de Origine Borussorum” speaks of the wild hroses of Prussia as unnoticed by Greek and Latin authors. They are” he writes, “in form nearly like the domestic species, but with soft backs, unfit to be ridden, shy and difficult to capture, but very good venison” These horses are evidently again referred to by Andr. Schneebergius, who states, that “there were wild horses in the preserves of the prince of Prussia, resembling the domestic, but mouse-colored, with a dark streak on the spine, and the mane and tail dark ; they were not greatly alarmed at the sight of human beings, but inexpressibly violent if any person attempted to mount them. They were reserved for the table like other game.”
- peterdonck
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Again an excerpt which my shed a light on the observation of Dr. D'Andrade :
“The natural history of horses with memoir of Gesner” 1866 by Charles Hamilton Smith page 274-277 : “ THE DUN OR TAN STOCK : is in our view the fourth stirps, and perhaps even more distinct from the three already mentioned than the fifth or pied stem ; for, in the form and markings there occur evident approximations to the Asinine group, never acquiring the lofty stature of the black or grey, but always lower and proportionably longer, with more slender limbs, clean joints, and smaller hoofs. The dun is typical of the generality of the real wild horses, still extant in Asia, and the semi-domesticated, both there and in Eastern Europe. Beside the general form, the smaller square head, great length of mane, tendency to black limbs, it is known by the black streak along the spine, sometimes, though very rarely, crossed by a second of a fainter colour on the shoulders, and often marked by black streaks on the hocks and upper arms.
note by the author : *Beside the animal figured, Plate VI, we have seen but two others similary marked with a cross bar ; but my friend and acute observer, N. Gabriel, Esq., informs me that he has found several in Engeland.
The common chestnut, through all Temperate Asia and Eastern Europe, when bearing withal the dappled spots of the grey, in token of a twofold intermixture, still often shows, in the dorsal line, the colour of the legs, the general structure, and form of the mane and tail, his tendency to absorption into the more indelible type of the dun, whose stock, subdivided into many races, everywhere recurring, shows the livery under the names of eelback-dun, tanned, mouse-coloured, light bay, cervino, pelo de lobo &c., but always distinctly bearing the spinal streak down to the tail, even when deeply mixed with the noblest blood or divergent into the chestnut or Alezan livery, where alone stature is developed, and where, in the solitary instance of the Burgundian ancient race, that colour clothes forms belonging to the heavy black and draught horse. From the mountains of Scotland to the plains of Eastern Tahtary, from Iceland and Norway to the sierras of Central Spain, notwithstanding the ceaseless intermixture with breeds of other origin, or the further decrease of stature from climate or want of food, these various shades of dun and the dorsal streak often reappear upon individuals among droves apparently all bay, or all sooty, without an ostensible cause, to the exclusion of grey and dappled, which are always the result of direct intermixture. In manners and characteristic intelligence, this type displays peculiarities not found in the larger forms of horse, and in part at least they may be fairly ascribed to a different cerebral organization. Unlike the other types, the dun alone invariably husbands its strength and resources, never wasting them by untimely impetuosity or uncalculating resistance ; ever provident in securing the momen tot bite at food or drink ; cautious, cunning, capable of concealing itself, of abstaining from noise, of stooping and passing under bars or other obstacles with a crouching gait, which large horses cannot or will not perform ; these and many other peculiarities of their wild educational instinct, are reflected again upon all the races of the type, however diversified by mixture, so long as the prevailing feature of their stature remains, as all antiquity attest, and modern times daily witness in domesticated ponies, and above all, in the high intelligene of those which have been trained for public exhibitions.
Although varying from circumstances, the duncoloured stirps is pre-eminently attached to rocky and woody locations, always in a state of nature seeking shelter in cover, or security among rocks, here either are accesssible ; it feeds upon a greater variety of plants than the others, and, contrary to them, residence in the open plains is rather an accessary condition than one of preference in their mode of existence. The dun, as before stated, was exclusively used by the ancient Median cavalry, and in chariots of war. It is still the principal stock of the wild races of Asia, and even of the Ukraine and Poland ; but in a domesticated state, colour is so intermixed, that all the semi-wild breeds of Russia, Hungary, and Poland have a great proportion of their njmbers bay, particulary since the Arabian conquests rendered this superior stirps more valued and accessible in the north.
page 280 “ It is to this stirps that the wild horses of Lithuania and Prussia, already described, unquestionably belonged ; and those of the great forest of Bialowitz (!!) have still in general the same characteristics of livery and form. In plate VI. we have figured one ridden by a Russian Lancer officer, who stated the animal to be of Ukraine race of the wild stock ; we found it chiefly remarkable for the cross bar on the shoulders, disctinctly marked, its vicious aspect, and for the close resemblance it bore to the description of the wild in colour, though in form there was a greater similarity with the Samogitian horses, being rather long than high, though extremely vigorous. This Stirps, therefore, approximates the Hemionus, Djiggetai, and Yo-to-tze in livery and markings.”
page 281 : “ In the Tzeckler mountains of Transylvnia, there is a smaller sized dun horse, nearly in a state of nature, probably the remains of a wild indigenous race”
- peterdonck
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PART- 5
dr. Henri Kerkdijk-Otten : The Sorraia on the other hand is a fairly large horse compared to the original Tarpan, with a rather slender build, long bi-colored (black and white) manes and tail. It means that the Sorraia doesn't look like the original description of the Tarpan to begin with.
genetic rules : * Allen’s Rule = animals in colder climates have shorter limbs / appendages than in warmer climates = the volume/surface is different in behalf of energyloss. * Gloger’s rule = the more humid the environment, the more heavily pigmented (= darker) the animal
again : the tarpan was not used by Dr. D’Andrade as a reference, the description of Gmelin was made on sightings from the distance, 3 adults killed in a hunt, a capture of a colt and some skins. There was no evidence of all of them being pure, the fact that curly hair was mentioned could be by an outcross with the curlycoated Bashkir-horse from that region. More on colour later on, although it is basic information.
dr. Henri Kerkdijk-Otten : Secondly, the nomenclature of a horse from the steppes of the Ukraine (a long way from Portugal) representing a totally different ecoregion, climate, vegetation, etcetera, can not that easily be transported to a horse breed from Portugal.
Horses are renown for their adaptebility, you can find them almost everywhere and in good condition, be it snow or raging sun…..
dr. Henri Kerkdijk-Otten : Thirdly, the Tarpan was a, or consisted for a large part, of domesticated horse stock that escaped and went feral. This has been confirmed by statements made by the Cossack people in the 19th century. That means that the status of the Tarpan as a truly wild species is somewhat doubtful and again; transporting it’s name and doubtful status to a breed in Portugal signals bad practice. Remember, we are still talking about the stone age of archaeozoology, no matter what the good intentions of d’Andrade were.
Remember : d’Andrade never made the comparison between Sorraiahorse and tarpan, he compared them to zebra and hemionus. The tarpan only consisted for part of domestic stock when he stopped being a real tarpan. So what ! even exmoors are extensively managed by seizonally culling and replacing studs, that is not natural either. Moreover it should be clear that by reading the excerpts of the Hamilton-Smith book on horses, here cited, the coloration dun was widely spread in far distant populations in very different ecosystems in feral, semi-feral, partly domesticated or rewilded horses.
dr. Henri Kerkdijk-Otten : Second: Dr. d’Andrade went to the same region again in the ‘30ties. He did not find wild horses anymore, so he identified and bought 12 horses from farmers in that region.
I want to state here that “famer” in the south of portugal is very different from the thus called rural population in midwestern europe. There farming means usually a vast domaine where in a very extensive way cattle is kept and guarded on the typical gineta-way, which means on horseback with the agility to manage the puya or garrocha to tip over calves, as atavistic remain of the spearing hunt and battle…. He did not retrieve the same herd back, of which he never stated it was completely wild (read his words) it was probably an extensive mares-with-foals-group with a haremstud to my opinion, but he did find some 300 likely horses by colour and conformation on different neighbouring fincas.
dr. Henri Kerkdijk-Otten : He did not obtain ‘wild’ horses; he obtained domesticated look-a-likes. However, selection on phenotype doesn't say anything about genotype or ecotype or a direct link to prehistoric horses.
Genotype is responsible for fenotype as we all know, you can not tear them apart, so selection on fenotype is all the way selecting on genotype, what you see on the outside is coded for in the inside to put it lightly ! In the south of Iberia nature and cattlecountry are one, if a horse can thrive there without much human intervention you are selecting for ecotype. In those days horses were selected for qualities that made them as well fit for survival as fit for work : agility, toughness, resistance to harsh wear and tear and wheatherconditions, all of it on roughage and scarcely water !
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Ursus arctos
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Jan 10 2012, 09:37 PM
Post #8
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Autotrophic Organism
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- peterdonck
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duncolored criollo, not all dunhorses have the bicolored mane , i mean, they do but it is mostly noticed when the bodycolour is at the light-end of the spectrum ). With this horse, if you look carefully, the sides of the manes are not black but the same colour of the neck. There is not yet genetical evidence of the precise action of the probably different genes involved, neither has the DUNgene itself been determined or defined, although there is a genetic DUNtest, which is not yet completive, extra fotos of the horse, the parents, as well as hair of all of them
- peterdonck
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PART- 6
dr. Henri Kerkdijk-Otten : Third: “and in 1948, a very striped dun Argentine Criollo stallion was added to the founding population.” - Mayor warning sign: d’Andrade imported a horse from Argentina and incorporated that in the breeding program (sic!). It seems that coat color was chosen, instead of proven (genetic) ancestry.
Every historian knows the flows of iberian equine genetics to the americas, they were less diluted to southamerica than to the north, where they had a continous instream of northern european horses. Argentinian criollos are very close to iberian horses allthough to my idea they are overall heavier by influence of “cold-blood”, probably Shires and Clydesdales when you look at there color (sabino, overo). Dun in al it’s forms is still abundant on southamerican horses : criollos, mangalarga-marchador, quarterhorses, spanish mustangs, kigers etc.
[img]grulla_QHxMangalarga01.jpg[/img]
- peterdonck
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duncolored quarterhorse : duncolor seems in many cases to be related wiht a certain conformation, in headprofile, form of the croup, width of chest .... allthough also this should be proved by detecting the genes responsible for conformation. Apart from certain genes in colourheredity, not much is yet known, most research is done on reoccuring heredity of illnesses like HYPP or HERDA etc.
- peterdonck
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Are these Sorraias ? No they are Koniks in the netherlands most descriptions on living "remains" of feral steppe- or woodhorses clearly mention the line on the back, so Vetulani had al the reason to select for this. In contrary to the sorraia which was highly probable influenced by local ridinghorses, Vetulani picked horses he found with farmers who did absorb the last wild horses out of the hunting-park into their farming-stock. Difference with Iberia was that at that time there was not anymore a habit of poking cattle- or sheepherds from horseback, most rural horses were cart-pulling heavier types. This reflects in the Koniks, contrary to the Sorraia, allthough al so often the subconvex or even convex profiles crops out, toghether with a leaner build. Selection by responsables of grazers and browsers in nature-reserves such as the Oostvaarderplassen in the Netherlands (and even more in other places ) select for heavier headed animals with a rounder conformation only because of the believe which Dr. Kerkdijk-Otten reflects as well, that primitivehorses MUST have heavy jaws to cope with the roughage they feed on. Passing the fact that all kinds of skulls and jaws have been decovered (of which most probably were living in colder climates or glacials upon which you can aply Allen's genetic rule). A lot of old breeds or primitive horsetypes which live in more arid ecotopes show different narrower jaws (apart from their facial convexity or concavity) : arabs, barbs, Caspian, Akhal Tékes etc.
- peterdonck
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kigermustang
DUN-COLOURING The colour of a horse is made up by two pigments, the dilution of those or the absence : black pigment or eumelanin and red pigment or pheomelanin. These two pigments or switched on or off, completely or partially by another gene named Agouti (A). A horse is black when the agouti-gene is turned off = a, and the black gene on = E which makes it’s genotype EE-aa or Eeaa ( 1 phenotype = 2 genotypes ) A horse is bay when the agouti-gene is turned on = A, and the black gene also = E which makes it’s genotype EeAa or EEAa or EeAA or EEAA (1 phenotype = 4 genotypes) A horse is red when the gene for black is turned off, genotyping ee Whatever the agoutigene is, on (AA or Aa) or off (aa) the combination with ee will always make a horse red.
This is grocely the basis. But aside of E and A there are other genes which work epistatically or modifying on those 2 genes. This can be diluting genes or prohibiter-genes (completely or partially). Some examples : - Cream = diluter of red pigment, the aspect of red parts will become yellowish - Gray = prohibiter of all pigment, at certain stages of age, the pigment is progresively prohibitted of filling the hairshaft and –bulb which turns the horse ultimately all white but with black or dark skin, through different stages of blueishing, dappling, shading till white. - Splash, Frame, Sabino, Tobiano = white markers, small or large parts of the horse are not filled with pigment and this in different patterns according to the gene or genes at work.
In the paper “Coat Color Variation at the Beginning of Horse Domestication” Ludwig et Al. 2009, we can read the following : “we found no variation in the Siberian and European Pleistocene horses suggesting that these horses were bay or bay-dun in color. There is evidence that the wild type is dun, but, because the nondun mutation has not yet been identified, we cannot distinguish between dun and nondun horses. In contrast, Iberian Early Holocene horses carried both the nonblack allele A (25%) and the black allele a (75%) at the ASIP gene, resulting in four black and four bay horses…. Easteuropean horses dating 7000 to 6000 yr BP revealed a mixed population (76% bay and 24% black)…” further on “…Unlike in samples from Siberia and Eastern Europe, we observed no color change in Spanish samples until medieval times.”
Reading this it should be clear that all mentioned horses described as black or bay, could have been black-dun (grullo, rato, mouse) or bay-dun (bayo a rayo de mula, baio ….) since the DUN-gene is not yet identified. The dungene is in horsecolourheredity seen as a diluter, but a stable diluter with a single effect which means in homozygosity or heterozygosity the effect is the same : the body colour is diluted in case of black to a slate / mouse / blue / ash / lobo -colour and in case of red to a yellow / creamy-colour, while mane and tail and lowerlegs stay black (or dark in case of redduns eeD. ) The colours Grulla (sp.) = greyish like the cranes (grus grus), and rato (Pt) = the greyish colour of an ordinary housemouse (mus musculus) are two well established denominations of the DUNshading on black horses in combination with the striping. The colours Bayo (Sp.) and Baia (Pt) are used for bay-dunhorses (allthough they are also commonly used for non-lineback horses with the Cream-gene ) which are of a more golden or orange sandy colour. In spanish a bay horse is known as “castano”, in portuguese “castanha”, so clearly different of the denominations of blackdun an baydun.
How the stripings are rendered genetically is also not known, it can be a secondary effect of the Dungene, but it could also be due to another gene which is probably linked to the dungene. Striping effects are always the eelstripe, or backline combined with darklined earrims (with a tan inside) and less often striping on the upper parts of the legs (fore and hind), cobwebbing on the forehead can occur, the eyeshades above the eyes are usually present, earbars on the back of the ears, white eartips and even shouldercross as well as fishboning (different stripes vertically along the spine ) and neckstripes or –shadowing are possible. As you see a full range is possible but not at all always present. The scetch Dr. D’Andrade made of one of the horses he spotted in the herd are realy bewildering and absolutely not often seen (although they are known in argentina as “atigrado”) which makes it more than obvious it apealed to his eyes ! In his statements on colour, Dr. Henri Kerkdijk-Otten shows at least a very meager knowledge on horsecolour nomenclature let alone that he is aware of horse colour heredity, which is on his field as a historian in function for a rewilding project with primitive horses (and bovines) a major fault. Demonstrating is his use of the term “grey” and his obstinent denial of the various shades of mice compared to the various shades of Dun. For example, nor is he aware of the mulitple possibilities at the A-locus (A+, A, At and a), nor is the colourpaper, here stated and waved by him as a proof of his right, though the different allels in combination all give different shades of grulla, slate, mouse, lobo, bayo, ash, honey …….but were not circumscribed. The conclusion of the Ludwig-paper is that apart from bay, black and dun, all other mutations occurred after domesication, he reads it as if dun is one of the comprised post-domestication-mutations !!! obstinate and mendacious for a man of science….
The wild-bay gene which is seen on primitive ponys like the exmoor is named A+ and causes an enlightening of the longer bodyhairs, of the muzzle, belly, loin and fades the black on the sides of the canons to a more brown or red shade. There is not known yet if there is another gene at work to make this effect even more prononciated and which is called “pangare” or “mealy”. Przewalski seen to have the combination of the A+, D and P (wildbay, dun, pangare), wile sorraias and other such horses have a rather black mask and not the lighter underline ; exmoors do not show clearly backlines or other striping but clearly the A+ and P; their overall aspect is much darker till black from the spine down over the body to the light underline which can be caused by At, called “sooty”. Neither on wildbay A+ or sooty At, there is any evidence in the Ludwig-paper, so following the reasoning by Dr. Kerkdijk-Otten, we could conclude they were mutations which occurred after domestication…..but we don’t ! We would rather see further research as well on the colourgenetics as on the specifications of the yet defined genes, before jumping irrealistic to conclusions …. And as long nothing is cleared out on this, we keep in consideration predomesticated horses could as well have been the colour of exmoor, of przewalski as of sorraia, which seems to be backed by the wide differentiation of cavepaintings.
- thunaer
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Dear Hardy Oelke, i am the Henri Kerkdijk you are calling a bad scientist. You and i had a private conversation by email already and you withdrew from that. Now i see you on this forum criticizing me. It would be more mature to address me directly, instead of using an anonymous forum. In our private conversation you never presented solid evidence regarding the primitiveness of the Sorraia, like i asked many times. I furthermore see that you misquote me or play with words. And lastly, any connection between the Tarpan and the Sorraia has been made by you in a multitude of (internet) articles. Now, we have two options; - we can discuss this privately - we can discuss this openly, but then i will ask the same questions i asked in our emails and that Firefly is asking: where is your proof? One thing; going on about dun colors and stripes doesn't proof anything and also doesn't say anything about the rest of the characteristics that make up a horse. One good example: http://www.seaspiritoftheforest.co.uk/Graphics/MouseDun2.jpgA Morgan horse, super 'primitive' coloration, but domesticated to the bone and created using domestic stock. Best wishes, Henri
- thunaer
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Just one more thing, you say you don't want to start any fight, yet you say about me: "He is obviously not a geneticist and to my finding not the best interpreter of scientific papers on genetic linking." I am curious to know the genetic research that backs up the claim that the Sorraia is a primitive breed or an ancestor to any (Iberian) breed.
You also talk about the fact that the Sorraia was one step lower in the phylogenetic tree. You do know that an unrooted tree illustrates the relatedness of the leaf nodes without making assumptions about ancestry at all. A phylogenetic tree doesn't represent a nice hierarchical or chronological pedigree. It only represents a relative distance. You can turn a phylogenetic tree upside down so to speak. The research of Jansen et al., 2002 (of which you quote) is also plagued by a rather low bootstrap value.
But hey, what do i know?
"In his statements on colour, Dr. Henri Kerkdijk-Otten shows at least a very meager knowledge on horsecolour nomenclature let alone that he is aware of horse colour heredity, which is on his field as a historian in function for a rewilding project with primitive horses (and bovines) a major fault. Demonstrating is his use of the term “grey” and his obstinent denial of the various shades of mice compared to the various shades of Dun."
Denial of the various shades of mice? I advocate the various shades of mice. Hardy is the one denying them, not me. In his translations he always translates the colors as 'mice grey', instead of the correct 'mice colored'. A small detail perhaps, but with huge repercussions. Do a google search on Apodemus Agrarius for instance. Relevant, because the last Tarpan (of which Hardy said he was grey) was described to be field mouse colored and the field mouse type present in the area is Apodemus Agrarius. You will find that not only the coat color is described but also the color setting, including eel stripe and white/lighter belly. Can you also quote me correctly? Research by Ludwig et al., 2009 was expanded and corroborated by Provost et al., 2011.
"A lot of old breeds or primitive horsetypes which live in more arid ecotopes show different narrower jaws (apart from their facial convexity or concavity) : arabs, barbs, Caspian, Akhal Tékes etc."
And none of these breeds live wild anymore. They have been subjected to human domestication and selection pressure for ages. The jaw itself is not only important, it is the way the teeth are placed in the jaw. Przewalski, Exmoor, etcetera have thick teeth that are rooted very deeply in the jaw. This enables them to digest rough forage. Same is true for pleistocene and holocene wild horses. Before you draw your conclusions, you could try to get in contact with the relevant scientists from the regions you mention (where the horse breeds come from that you mention). Holocene wild horse remains display heavy heads with deeply rooted teeth.
"about the propaganda, even scientist make that fault (see the auroch), I go for scientifical hard facts the propaganda Dutch scientists/biologists/ecologists/ or even pseudo-scientists now make on the exmoor, is as objectionable since there is not yet proof (to my knowledge) that this is the case, or if you have more documents about this, I'd like to read them, I'm allways prone to bias my knowledge...."
First of all, i will relate your opinion about the Exmoor, the aurochs breeding project and your opinion about the scientists behind it, to the Universities of Wageningen, Mainz, Coruna, Cordoba, York, Max Planck Institute and a number of other universities and scientific institutes and experts like Cis van Vuure (part of the aurochs program), Prof. Cothran, etcetera.
Secondly; regarding the Exmoor, see Cieslak et al., 2010. Look at haplotypes, when they originated, where they originated, etcetera. I am not going to spell it out for you, since your disqualification of my interpreting abilities obviously renders you the expert.
By qualifying the Sorraia as the ancient horse breeds you automatically disqualify other horse breeds. A better approach would be like stated here: [url]http://www.lhnet.org/horse-breeds/ [/url] And disqualifying me and other scientist will not bring you any further to the truth.
You seem to be rooted so much in the Sorraia thing, that you are insulting and disqualifying other scientists by presenting evidence that is ambiguous if not lacking. And you do this on an anonymous forum. This is not proper conduct when trying to settle a scientific dispute.
Instead of making things difficult, you can make things easy for yourself and for us...
Simply proof by means of genetic research, osteological comparisons, primary historical sources and comparitive research with present day wild horses, that the Sorraia is an ancestor of the Lusitano and the Andalucian and that it is a prehistoric/ancient horse, unchanged since domestication of the horse began.
If you can, we have something worthwile to talk about. If not, you are simply waisting my time and those of others.
Best wishes,
Henri
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Ursus arctos
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Jan 10 2012, 09:43 PM
Post #9
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Autotrophic Organism
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- peterdonck
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HKO : I am curious to know the genetic research that backs up the claim that the Sorraia is a primitive breed or an ancestor to any (Iberian) breed.you are making this claim on the exmoor, I never did on the sorraia, I keep on saying that the sorraia as well as the exmoor are (amongst others) candidates for being primitive horsebreeds ( the term breeding allways stressing on human interference ) with a high probability going back to predomestication. Up till now all scientifical research that I have knowledge off, states the same viewpoint, I have never read anywhere there was until today any scientifical evidence that one horse breed and one horse breed alone could claim to be the only living descendant of the predomesticated horse nor to be the sole and only ancestor of all other horses domesticated or rewilded, not even the przewalski. HKO : You also talk about the fact that the Sorraia was one step lower in the phylogenetic tree. You do know that an unrooted tree illustrates the relatedness of the leaf nodes without making assumptions about ancestry at all. A phylogenetic tree doesn't represent a nice hierarchical or chronological pedigree. It only represents a relative distance. You can turn a phylogenetic tree upside down so to speak. The research of Jansen et al., 2002 (of which you quote) is also plagued by a rather low bootstrap value.You know as well that a smaller relative genetic distance indicates a closer genetic relationship. The closest genetic distance from the sorraia is the fork from which andalusian and lusitano develop. Holding the tree upside down will not change a thing. It is not about ancestry but it’s a diagram of evolutionary relationships within a group, in which a group of subspecies diverge. Even if this is an untimed tree, knowing a little about horsehistory you can well tell that the node which is basical to the “spanish” breeds (which means the iberian “indigenous” breeds as well as the southamerican breeds) is situated about 1500 AD. The tree I referred to was the one from 2006 – Luis et Al. “genetic diversity and relationships of portuguese and other horses”. You know as well that a severe bottleneck, as the one the sorraias went through leads to genetic drift and heavy founder effect with an extreme loss of genetic variety, by which it is very difficult to make solid conclusions on ancestry. In using MtDNA you study the maternal lines within the group or subspecies and you can not say anything on the male influence, on the other hand is YDNA-typing in such a small population very fast running on empty since YDNA is only inherited by the male descendants and in a small offspring-generation of a certain male, it is lost forever by lack of male offspring. HKO : Denial of the various shades of mice? I advocate the various shades of mice. Hardy is the one denying them, not me. In his translations he always translates the colors as 'mice grey', instead of the correct 'mice colored'. A small detail perhaps, but with huge repercussions. Do a google search on Apodemus Agrarius for instance. Relevant, because the last Tarpan (of which Hardy said he was grey) was described to be field mouse colored and the field mouse type present in the area is Apodemus Agrarius. You will find that not only the coat color is described but also the color setting, including eel stripe and white/lighter belly.We can quarrel for a day on the colour of mice, and on translations from one language to another, but mice of all sorts range in colour from sandy-light to almost black, just like sorraiahorses and above all, even your eastern fieldmouse has just like the sorraia, konik, dülmener a dark eelstripe.... On mandibles and jaws : I refer to the actual horse-age and developing of horse-teeth from young and deeply rooted, to old and completely worn, as well as to other grazing and browsing species with much smaller mandibles and equal viability. As holocene horses might have had all (!) heavy heads and massive teeth doesn’t mean within the species there can not have been divergence on that trait within subspecies. You can not blame a group or subgroup of horses for not living wild anymore and for having had any influence of man. The simple fact that they are called “a breed” means they have been in certain ways selected on very diverse criteria by man, the sorraia, the exmoor as well as all the others, so even on that basis you can not make a distinction between one or the other. HKO : regarding the Exmoor, see Cieslak et al., 2010. Look at haplotypes, when they originated, where they originated, etcetera. I am not going to spell it out for you, since your disqualification of my interpreting abilities obviously renders you the expert.The Cieslak-paper is highly heteroclytic and inconclusive. HKO : By qualifying the Sorraia as the ancient horse breeds you automatically disqualify other horse breeds. A better approach would be like stated here: http://www.lhnet.org/horse-breeds/ And disqualifying me and other scientist will not bring you any further to the truth.I have no intension of disqualifying anybody, but it is no use to bend scientific realities, in se that up to now, no effective conclusions can be made, that still more samples are needed, that there are still hiates in time and genetic linkage, in fact that no group of horses can be shoved in the spotlight as being the one and only true descendant of the ancient predomesticated horse. my post here on Dec. 3 : “maybe current scientific knowledge might not be far enough.... so maybe it's wrong to rule out one ancient type of horse (-breed) in favour of just one other.....” “why shouldn't exmoortypes and sorraiatypes not be just different branches of one common ancestor ?” But it is a fact that you rule out sorraiahorses, see your anti-sorraia-pamphlet here posted by firefly. HKO : First of all, i will relate your opinion about the Exmoor, the aurochs breeding project and your opinion about the scientists behind it, to the Universities of Wageningen, Mainz, Coruna, Cordoba, York, Max Planck Institute and a number of other universities and scientific institutes and experts like Cis van Vuure (part of the aurochs program), Prof. Cothran, etcetera.Feel free to do whatever you feel free to do ...... On the aurochs project I was refering to the Austrian project on which there were several posts on the “iberian-fighting-bull”thread where the project reponsables claim to have actual rebreeds of the Auroch, misson accomplished, which not ! I have read the complete book of Dr. Cis Van Vuure “het spoor terug” a couple of years ago, and I think highly of him and of his book. I know prof. Gus Cothran did an enormous amount of fieldwork on american mustangs and I never mentioned a name here or did discredit anybody personaly. All I did and do here is try to put arguments in pro, against your biased opinion against the sorraiahorse which you rule completely out as a candidate for a certain equine ancienity, based on no more than a handfull of historical references, another fistfull of assumptions (f.i. the wild history of the exmoor, the incapability of a dr. in zoology, ...) and leaning on scientific studies of which you only cite partially and which are themselves as their developers, much more prudent, objectif and balanced in their statements. ever best whishes !
- thunaer
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" you are making this claim on the exmoor, I never did on the sorraia, I keep on saying that the sorraia as well as the exmoor are (amongst others) candidates for being primitive horsebreeds ( the term breeding allways stressing on human interference ) with a high probability going back to predomestication. Up till now all scientifical research that I have knowledge off, states the same viewpoint" Then simply name all the scientific researches that state the viewpoint that the Sorraia with a high probability goes back to predomestication. " You know as well that a smaller relative genetic distance indicates a closer genetic relationship. The closest genetic distance from the sorraia is the fork from which andalusian and lusitano develop."It is the words 'from which develop' that does give a hint that you do not understand what i said. It is not a chronological pedigree. There is no 'from which develop'. The Sorraia founding population was very very small, including a Lusitano (see herd book) and an Argentinian horse. Now what does that tell us? I also included other genetic researches, historical research (what d'Andrade said himself), archaeozoological, etcetera. A holistic approach is the key here. You then go on by saying something about severe founder effect, mtDNA and Y-chromosomal DNA. Etcetera. All true, but what is it you are trying to prove? Regarding relations between Sorraia, Lusitano and Andalucian, Luis, Oom, Cothran (in the article you mention), state the following: "Because of its low variability, the Sorraia usually separated from the other breeds when only one type of marker was used, as seen also in Oom & Cothran (1994); Juras et al. (2003); Cothran & Luý´s (2005) and Morais et al. (2005). However, when we used all three types of markers the Sorraia clustered with the other Iberian and Iberian-influenced breeds.... ...For example, a severely bottlenecked breed, such has the Sorraia horse, if analysed with microsatellites, will show a large genetic distance from other breeds primarily caused by founder effect, genetic drift and consequently greater loss of genetic diversity relative to other breeds, as emphasized by Hedrick (1999). Therefore, the inclusion of less-variable markers such has proteins can help increase the connection between statistical and biological significance." Meaning, that they expect that Sorraia, Lusitano and Andalucian will cluster more closely when other, less variable, markers are used. That means no 'fork from which develops...', etcetera. In effect, i could just as well argue that the closely related Lusitano and Andalucian are the ancestors of the Sorraia. Looking at the fact that a registered Lusitano mare was used in the Sorraia breeding program and looking at the area and herds that d'Andrade selected from, it even becomes probably that he selected horses from within the Lusitano group. Then i have another question; why automatically believe Hardy Oelke and why automatically try to counter all my arguments? " but mice of all sorts range in colour from sandy-light to almost black, just like sorraiahorses and above all, even your eastern fieldmouse has just like the sorraia, konik, dülmener a dark eelstripe...." I never said they didn't, you made that assumption. In a personal email correspondence, Hardy Oelke firmly believed that the Tarpan and the Sorraia, as was the original wild horse, were all 'grulla' and that 'grulla' was meant to be 'grey'. I am glad you explained yourself, since now i know that you go against Hardy Oelke in this. From all the sources about the Tarpan, we know they ranged in more colors than simply 'mouse grey' (like Hardy states). Rzonozynski in 1721 states that most wild horses in Poland were tan (pale, yellowish shade of brown) and mouse colored, whereby 'mouse' indeed means a wide range in colors. The color range of Fjord horses seems more authentic, with various shades of dun. Then again, it doesn't proof anything on itself. In fact, colors are relatively easy to breed in a population. " As holocene horses might have had all (!) heavy heads and massive teeth doesn’t mean within the species there can not have been divergence on that trait within subspecies. You can not blame a group or subgroup of horses for not living wild anymore and for having had any influence of man. The simple fact that they are called “a breed” means they have been in certain ways selected on very diverse criteria by man, the sorraia, the exmoor as well as all the others, so even on that basis you can not make a distinction between one or the other."Some are more domesticated or more dedomesticated than others. Furthermore, what do you proof here? Did you contact researchers from the areas where the horse breeds originated that you mentioned? " The Cieslak-paper is highly heteroclytic and inconclusive" Not when you contact Cieslak and use other research disciplines. A holistic approach is key here. " I have no intension of disqualifying anybody, but it is no use to bend scientific realities, in se that up to now, no effective conclusions can be made, that still more samples are needed, that there are still hiates in time and genetic linkage, in fact that no group of horses can be shoved in the spotlight as being the one and only true descendant of the ancient predomesticated horse."And you do not find it strange that all over the internet and in articles and papers, the Sorraia is presented as such? " But it is a fact that you rule out sorraiahorses, see your anti-sorraia-pamphlet here posted by firefly." Completely right observation. As do a multitude of scientists that ever tried to research the genetics and origins of the Sorraia. Regarding my view about other horse breeds, read the article on the LHNet. http://www.lhnet.org/horse-breeds/" Feel free to do whatever you feel free to do ...... On the aurochs project I was refering to the Austrian project on which there were several posts on the “iberian-fighting-bull”thread where the project reponsables claim to have actual rebreeds of the Auroch, misson accomplished, which not ! I have read the complete book of Dr. Cis Van Vuure “het spoor terug” a couple of years ago, and I think highly of him and of his book. I know prof. Gus Cothran did an enormous amount of fieldwork on american mustangs and I never mentioned a name here or did discredit anybody personaly."You do not get the point, do you? You are discrediting scientists, projects and views. Do you honestly think that i am the only person reaching the conclusions that i do and that i operate completely solo? By discrediting me, you are discrediting the other (attached) scientists as well, automatically. And you do this anonymously on an anonymous forum. This is not a proper way to have or settle a scientific argument. I still did not catch your name by the way. " All I did and do here is try to put arguments in pro, against your biased opinion against the sorraiahorse which you rule completely out as a candidate for a certain equine ancienity, based on no more than a handfull of historical references, another fistfull of assumptions (f.i. the wild history of the exmoor, the incapability of a dr. in zoology, ...) and leaning on scientific studies of which you only cite partially and which are themselves as their developers, much more prudent, objectif and balanced in their statements."Then i wonder why you do not do the same with the Sorraia, aka Hardy Oelke? That is my main point here. And what about the Exmoor? Do i mention it in my 'pamphlet' regarding the Sorraia? For my general opinion, see article on LHNet. http://www.lhnet.org/horse-breeds/Furthermore, stating that i only cite a handful of historical sources isn't good enough for me and besides the truth (read the whole 'pamphlet' please). If you cannot counter-argue all that i have written on the Sorraia, other than saying 'it might be this or that' (for which the fingers seem to be the main source)... you cannot counter-argue my conclusions. And still you do not present one single bit of evidence that rules in the possibility that the Sorraia might be of ancient origin. And that means we are basically done talking. Best wishes, Henri
- peterdonck
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there is more to come on the specific scientific papers which dr.HKO mentions so well, but which he obviously bends a little in his direction, as well as on the findings of Dr. Eisenmann , but that'll be for after these christmas days. By the way, firefly, I hope you saw the discrepancies between his pertinency here and what he says in the interview on TV.
Bur for today let's keep to litterature, I took two excerpts from the losino-website you posted here and translated them myself from that ancient spanish to english, the first is remarkable because of it reminds me very strongly of the report of Dr D'Andrade a couple of centuries later :
1576 Albacete (Chinchilla), southeastern spain : "una especie de salvagina ovo en nuestra tierra que no la a avido en toda Espanna, sino aquí, que fueron encebras que abía muchas y tantas que destruyan los panes y sembrados; son a manera de yeguas cenizosas, de color de pelo de rrata, un poco mohinas, que relinchaban como yeguas, y corrían tanto que no había cavallo que las alcanzase y para aventarlas de los panes los sennores dellos se ponían en paradas con caballos y galgos, que otros perros no las podían alcanzar y desta manera las aventaban, que matar no podían por su ligereza" (Valdevira González Gregorio. La Provincia de Albacete durante el reinado de Felipe II, según las “Relaciones Topográficas”, Al-Basit, 1996)
A kind of wild ungulate in our country which never were seen in the whole of spain, but here there were a lot of “encebros”(striped animals ) even so much that they destroyed fences and crops : they are a kind of mares like covered in ashes, their coats the color of mice, a bit darker on the snout, which whinnied like mares and which ran so fast no horse could tire them down and to hold them away from the fences, the owners of those paraded on horses with galgos (hunting-greyhound), because other dogs couldn’t run them down. That way they kept them away because they couldn’t kill them because they were so agile ......Chinchilla (Albacete) 1576
second piece are some verses referring to the battle of Roncesvalles (Basquia, pass through the Pyrenees)
Ya bolvìan los franceses con coracòn a la lid tantos matar de los moros que no se puede dezir por Roncesvalles arriba huyendo va el rey Malsìn cavallero en una zebra no por mengua de rocìn la sangre que d’él salìa las yervas haze tenir las vozes que iva dando al cielo quieren subir
yet fled the french left their heart in battle so many killed by the moors you can’t tell when he came to the pass of Roncesvalles went for cover the moorish king Malsìn mounted on a zebra not by lack of steed the blood he lost he grass had to absorb it the words he murmered vapoured to heaven
Charles the Great had conquered Zaragoza (Spain) on the Moors (El rey Malsin also written Marsin ), when he went back to his country across the pyrenees through the pass of Roncesvalles (Baskia), his rearguard (led by Roland with his horn ‘elephant’) was attacked by Malsin, Roland hacked off an arm of Malsin who fled, allthough Roland and his men lost the squirmish, finally he blew his horn on which call Charles headed back and again persecuted the moors but finally retreated to France with the body of Roland ( Roldàn, es.) This was long before the domesdaybook of england in which the exmoor figuered....
46 years before, we had the battle at Poitiers where Charles-with-the-Hammer (Charles Martel (au marteau), Karel Martel, a belgian from Herstal, Ardennes) defeated the Moors which fled back to Spain. This was a battle of heavy-armoured infanterie (long swords, warhammers, hellebards, bludgeons ) with only a small amount of heavy horses (Ardenner...) against a light and fast cavalry that had to run uphill right into the defence setup on a wooded flank of the Franks.
I'd like to remark here on a heavy draught breed in France : le mulassier Poitevin, look it up if you want, it might shed a light on domestichorsemigration where heavy northern horses meet the light ones of the south Charles Martel not only kicked back the Moors he also defeated the Friesians ....
all of that as a little intermezzo on history have a nice turkey !
- thunaer
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Chilqat,
the interview on TV doesn't reflect my whole view. My complete view can be seen in the LHNet article. If you ever bother to read it.
Before you think to know somebody, simply ask questions first and then draw your conclusion. You did exactly the same regarding Firefly.
Furthermore, what do your historical quotes prove?
Oh wait a minute... let me guess... the Sorraia is the Zebro ofcourse... isn't it? If so, i can prove otherwise ofcourse. I suppose you mean that d'Andrade selected zebro's from the domesticated stock?
Only sad to see that you miss out on a lot of other historical sources about the Zebro, which clearly show that the Zebro and the Sorraia have nothing in common. And you seem to forget that the Sorraia has been bred from domestic look-a-likes, not from wild stock. d'Andrade wrote this himself.
And you talk about Ardennes Horses regarding the old source you mention? Can you prove that? Where do you get that from? And do you honestly think that the heavy Ardennes is 'fit for purpose' to be rewilded nowadays?
And then "This was a battle of heavy-armoured infanterie (long swords, warhammers, hellebards, bludgeons )" What are you babbling here? Hellebards, bludgeons and long swords? You do not have a single clue about Frankish weaponry or early medieval weaponry in general do you? Frankish warriors fought with a Spatha, a rather short sword, and used spears as a 'simple' form of lance, when fighting on horseback. They also were not heavily armoured.
And Charles Martel did not defeat the frisians. His successor did.
Regarding wild horses; I have been a moderator of the Konik website and was firmly interested in the Sorraia breed... untill i took some time to investigate things properly.
If a horse breed, such as the Sorraia, wants to have any credibility of ever being regarded as a possible primitive horse, then we need something to go on. We simply do not have anything substantial. Only researches stating the opposite. If you have something substantial, we have something to talk about. So please present it.
And last; i do not bend anything, since i actually DO care to get in touch with the authors of the various studies i included. I know that Firefly does the same. I suggest you do the same as well.
It seems you have some personal vendetta against me regarding the Exmoor being the closest thing we have to the original wild Northwest European horse? A bit childish to keep hiding behind an anonymous forum and an anonymous name.
So again: - can you state your name? - can you deliver proof? - can you counter all the proof against the Sorraia?
I must say i am really baffled: You do not present one coherent argument in all the things you have posted so far. Are you for real? Your method of having a discussion is as follows: you post a statement, i counter argue. You completely ignore that, post something totally different, i counter argue, you ignore that, you post something irrelevant, i ask for more proof and counter argue, you completely ignore that and post something else, etcetera, etcetera. Do you see a pattern evolving here? Do you also see that this will not convince anyone?
You did the same with firefly. You completely failed to answer his questions and you fail to answer mine as well.
And that reminds me of Hardy Oelke.
Your first attempt by using the paper of Luis, Ooms, Gothran, failed. So, please try again.
There is also an inherent flaw in your logic: even if you succeed in proving me wrong on all points, it doesn't automatically prove you right. Therefore; why make if hard for yourself? You say there is a lot of scientific evidence that the Sorraia might be a predomestic wild horse. Then simply present that evidence. You promised it to us about a week ago. Now where is it? Did it get lost in the Turkey you stuffed?
Best wishes and happy Christmas,
Henri
P.S.: i would love to see you take on Prof. Eisenmann. Ofcourse she has everything wrong as well... has she :-) I suppose this is also the case for Prof. van Kolfschoten, etcetera, etcetera?
- thunaer
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Dear Peter, i did find an interesting quote of you on the following page http://www.paardnatuurlijk.nl/index_js.htm?http://www.paardnatuurlijk.nl/fcgi/pnforum.fcgi?request=showsubject&cat=5&subject=16205&page=1You state the following: " maar het probleem met die wetenschappers is dat het allemaal lui zijn die niks met paarden hebben, niks weten over breeding en verwildering en hoe en welke paarden wanneer over de aardbol versleept werden noch hebben ze weet van moderne genetica ivm kleurvererving" English translation: " but the problem with those scientists is that they are all people that have nothing to do with horses, they don't know anything about breeding and rewilding and how and which horses [horse breeds] were dragged around the globe and why, nor do they have any knowledge about modern genetics regarding color inheritance" By stating this, you just disqualified every scientist on this board. And you just disqualified every scientific study regarding horse breeds, horse evolution, horse genetics, etcetera. And you just confirmed that your disqualifications of scientists and so called 'pseudo-scientists' on this board is repeated on other boards. For your knowlegde, the foundation that i work for has bred and rewilded horses for about 20 years now. But why are we pseudo-scientists still talking to you? Firefly, next post will be about genetic relations between northern Iberian horses and Exmoor. Let's get this topic back on track. Best wishes, Henri
- thunaer
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Royo et al., The Origins of Iberian Horses Assessed via Mitochondrial DNA, 2005
Some interesting quotes
"Our results also suggest that Northern Iberian ponies—which are phenotypically close to British ponies, especially Exmoor—are the result of an introgression rather than population replacement"
"Results from the present analyses did not confirm the expected role of donor population for both Barb and Exmoor breeds. Moreover, Exmoor did not present consistent genetic relationships with Southern Iberian breeds. An overview of our results would confirm both the close genetic relationship between Iberian and Northern African horse populations and the slight genetic relationship between Exmoor and Northern Iberian breeds existing at the mtDNA level. Exmoor shared haplotypes with Losino and Merens breeds. This may be the result of the well-documented use of British ponies on Losino and Pottoka populations during the first third of 20th century (Aparicio 1944). No information on this topic is available for the Merens breed; however, a similar use of British ponies on the breed cannot be excluded."
I do know that Exmoor (or related British) ponies were shipped to Spain in the past.
It doesn't prove that original wild horses from northern Spain and the UK were related though.
However, if you apply some logic; a functional phenotype (biotic factor) is determined by a-biotic factors like climate, vegetation and terrain. Since climate, vegetation and partly the terrain of northern Iberia and the UK are somewhat comparable, it is likely that the evolution of northern Iberian ecotypes and UK ecotypes took a somewhat similar evolutionary path.
Till about 6500 BC, the UK was connected to the mainland and the gulf of Biskaye was partly a fertile plain, resulting in a connected area that stretched from northern Iberia all the way to the UK. The area between the UK and the mainland was also a fertile lowland where the river Thames flowed into the Rhine river. It seems likely that untill about 6500 BC, populations of wild horses between the UK and northern Iberia constituted a somewhat similar ecotype.
Prof. Eisenmann also researched remains of wild late-pleistocene and early holocene horses of the Paris Basin (France), the area around Bordeaux and Switzerland (low riverine wetland area). Although they presented separate populations, both horse populations developed a similar morphology quite distinct from other horse populations living in other conditions.
But, this is all speculation and i only cite one paper. I will try to search for more information. The key is applying a holistic approach and taking a diversity of scientific disciplines into account and try to solve the puzzle from there.
Best wishes,
Henri
- thunaer
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Another thing is that i believe that while some pony/horse breeds could be close to 'the original wild horses/ponies' (whatever that may mean), we need genetic variation in any viable rewilding scheme.
The problem with all 'authentic' (again; whatever that means) pony/horse breeds is that they are all to some level (highly) inbred.
Because of the big diversity in climate, vegetation and terrain in the various ecoregions in Europe and because of the fact that most breeds have in effect been reduced to 'Island' populations, we need evolution as an active factor, when rewilding horses in the whole of Europe.
Evolution is a multigenerational process that results in genetic changes over time and is the result of several processes including natural selection, mutation, gene flow and genetic drift. Natural selection by itself is a process and occurs regardless of the effect it has on the next generation. The only criteria for natural selection to work is that there are differences in the fitness of individuals in the population. Whether those differences are linked to genetic differences is irrelevant. Evolution occurs only when those differences are linked to underlying genetic variation.
In effect, like i said in the article on LHNet, we need all 'primitive' and 'fit-for-purpose' pony/horse breeds, if we ever want to achieve a successfull europe-wide rewilding of 'the horse species' in general.
However, we also have a duty to present to the public a horse that can be presented as 'wild', otherwise 'wilderness' and 'rewilding' have no meaning. It is for this public acceptance, that we should strive to seek those breeds, or even include/breed those individuals, that best represent what was originally present in Europe, taking into account that characteristics vary because of a-biotic stimuli.
All in all, we need further studies to create a more complete picture regarding the last. The quest is fun in itself.
Best wishes,
Henri
- thunaer
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And last for now
Regarding public acceptance: what is readily recognized by the public are horse colors. However, we do not want to get hung up on colors too much, because it really is one of the many characteristics that make up a functional wild horse. Colors can also relatively easily be bred into a population.
Looking at color genetic studies (Ludwig et al., 2009 and Provost et al., 2011), what has been confirmed for wild horses since the pleistocene are the following colors: - Black base color - Bay base color - Leopard spotting gene
What is suspected, but cannot be proven, are: - Dun color
However, colors do not say anything about ancestry or possible prehistoric origins. Take a look at the authentic leopard spotting gene, that has been proved to have existed in some late pleistocene wild horses and onwards until this date. However, no one will claim that for instance the Knapstrubber represents an authentic horse breed with a direct link to pleistocene wild horses. And the Knapstrubber also doesn't present the most functional phenotype when considering it for any rewilding scheme.
What i am trying to say is: some people do get hung up on colors too much. Just take a look at the whole Tarpan debate. The alternative is: a holistic approach regarding the totality of what constitutes a functional phenotype as an outcome of a given set of a-biotic stimuli.
Best wishes,
Henri
- dfoidl
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Thanks a lot for all the interesting posts, Henri!  Here are two reconstructions of my interpretation of the european wild horse (one of them you already know):   If there is anything that is wrong or does not fit the scientific data, I'll of course try to change it.
- thunaer
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Dear Peter,
thanks for this reaction. With all that so-called 'bragg, nagg and bully', i finally came through to you. My viewpoint has always been more balanced, but if you go on a few quotes here and there, you simply do not know a person. And media has also presented some views like i was quoted stating those views, which actually i didn't. Thats the thing with media.
And regarding Heineken, i think it is crappy beer as well. That's why we export that stuff. So, i'd rather have a Hommel.
I think we can agree to disagree.
My 'pamphlet' against the Sorraia has been written, because a certain somebody actually does state that the Sorraia is the resurrected Iberian primitive horse. This has to be substantiated and there is no research stating the Sorraia is an authentic primitive horse.
And why i believe that the Sorraia is not of primitive stock? Because d'Andrade wrote himself that he selected horses from domestic stock, purely based on phenotype, and he included an Argentine Criollo and a Lusitano horse in the very small founding population. Apart from the genetic researches, it simply doesn't come more objective and unbiased than that.
Best wishes,
Henri
- peterdonck
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... sorry that went fast - your point : sorraia has been scientifically proven NOT to be an ancient horsetype and should be ruled out as candidate for rewilding projects.
I think that is clear, so maybe it's better to see what we have in common before we get pecking at each other again : (the papers we refer to are the same ) - equus ferus was and is a widespread species, they survive well in very different ecotopes - there are today no horses you can call stricktly wild, since all horse have been under the influence of man, they all have been used by him to some amount, be it for milk, meat, work, riding .... - all free-running horses are descending from domestic horses or they can be considered an ancient group that probably has undergone little change allthough they have to a certain extent, been managed by man
- horses have migrated very far and very broadly, be it by populationpressure, by climate change or through mankind and domestication - domestication has probably occured in more than one origin, or the act of domestication has repeatedly been applied on different groups of horses, by which the handlings were circulated by man to other groups of people - all horses that are being regarded as ancient, old or primitive have gone through genetic bottlenecks and have undergone genetic drift and thus a diminishing of genetic variety, one breed or group more than another For all of this you cannot blame the horse/group of horses/breed, nor can you make the assumption that loss of genetic variety is a proof of not being of ancient origin.
Survival of the horse as a species is in fact due to man, otherwise it would with a high probability have been deleted from the earth as was the case with the aurochs, simply because it was hunted to extinction.
On colour : due to different climatic factors different groups of horses can have undergone changes in colour which were advantageous for them, but untill today too little is known on genetic inheritance to be decisive on this, but with a high probability wildbay(exmoor f.i.) and dun (sorraia f.i.)were candidates because both colours or even their combination is noticed with a high frequency within the so called primitive breeds/groups
any objections ? I'd like to hear them and then we can discuss in a gentlemen's way, further on the subject. tomorrow i'll shed a little more light on the sentence you plucked out of the paardnatuurlijkforum, scientists and doctors have their rights and own their respect too ! not ?
@dfoidl : the muscling is a little sloppy and the bending of the pasterns and hoofs isn't good, keep on drawing, artists own their respect too !
bye !
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Ursus arctos
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Jan 10 2012, 09:50 PM
Post #10
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Autotrophic Organism
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- dfoidl
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@chilquat: Thanks for the critics; yes, pasterns, hooves and mammalian musculature are something I have to work on more. I have been drawing mammals for a not very long period yet, actually most of my "artist work" focused on Sauropsids, previously. - Quote:
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Survival of the horse as a species is in fact due to man, otherwise it would with a high probability have been deleted from the earth as was the case with the aurochs, simply because it was hunted to extinction.
While it is true that aurochs genes and wild horse genes are present today because man domesticated these animals, the original animals are extinct today because of man either. So, primary the extinction of the wild horse is due to man, and secondary the survival of its genes is because of man - or do you mean the przewalski's horse? If there was no man, wild horses and aurochsen would be a solid part of their original ecosystems, that's for sure. @ firefly & Henri: Thanks very much for the nice words! Today I discovered that on the ABU page, Germany:  These are konik-przewalski hybrids. The ABU crosses przewalski horses with koniks to make them easier to handle! I can find no other words for that than stupid and careless. I mean, first of all, I think there is no really good reason to introduce przewalskis in central europe, as this type of horse did not occur there in the holocene, AFAIK. Furthermore I think that destroying the purebredness of the individuals of the last wild type of an endangered species only to handle them easier for grazing projects is grossly negligent. And last, if they really think it is necessary to do all that, Exmoor ponies would be the least disastrous to their phenotype as they resemble them the most (and the ABU even works with Exmoors, ain't that absurd?). The carelessness of the organizations in Germany, mainly ABU and NABU, which run the grazing projects with robust horse and cattle as wild cattle and wild horse substitutes really makes me upset sometimes and is destructive for the restoration of these species in the wild, in my opinion.
- thunaer
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- dfoidl
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Today I discovered that on the ABU page, Germany:  These are konik-przewalski hybrids. The ABU crosses przewalski horses with koniks to make them easier to handle! I can find no other words for that than stupid and careless. I mean, first of all, I think there is no really good reason to introduce przewalskis in central europe, as this type of horse did not occur there in the holocene, AFAIK. Furthermore I think that destroying the purebredness of the individuals of the last wild type of an endangered species only to handle them easier for grazing projects is grossly negligent. And last, if they really think it is necessary to do all that, Exmoor ponies would be the least disastrous to their phenotype as they resemble them the most (and the ABU even works with Exmoors, ain't that absurd?). The carelessness of the organizations in Germany, mainly ABU and NABU, which run the grazing projects with robust horse and cattle as wild cattle and wild horse substitutes really makes me upset sometimes and is destructive for the restoration of these species in the wild, in my opinion.
Dear Daniel, could not agree more. Color is more like that of the Przewalski. Looking at overall phenotype, they just as well could have settled for Fjord horses. There are some more or less feral living Fjord herds in some nature reserves in the Netherlands. The myth of the 'present day Przewalski horse is the only wild pure horse we have' seems to prevail over common sense. Exmoor ponies for Central Europe are also a good choice. In the Solling Vogler hutewald project they do just fine in a primarily closed broadleaf forest. In winter their diet at times can consist of up to 95 percent of beech twigs, bark etcetera. So much for the 'closed forest canopy killed off all wild horses in central Europe during the holocene and they were replaced by horses coming from the east' theory. Exmoor x Przewalski would be something. Exmoor is bay + pangare. Przewalski is bay dun + pangare. Since dun is dominant, a cross would result in a crossbreed with a short but partly falling mane, przewalski coloration and uni colored (dark brown, blackish) manes and tail. Would be something. Our foundation did an experiment years ago and did crossbreed Konik with Exmoor. The result was a bay dun horse with clear eel stripe, zebra stripes on the legs, mealy muzzle surrounding a dark nose. Suprisingly, one out of three horses produced a completely standing mane. Ofcourse we abandoned that crossbreeding. More tomorrow. Best wishes, Henri
- thunaer
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More on the Przewalski x Konik hybrids I visited the NABU Soest in januari 2009, where they had Konik horses. They were on the track of the Tarpan. When looking at the webpage behind it, they now have a topic called 'Don't call me tarpan', which is in effect a good article. Because i know that the NABU wants tarpan looking animals and they do not seem to breed pure-bred animals (true to breed), which means that anything goes in respect to crossbreeding, it surprises me that they settle for this crossbreed. Please note; i do not advocate the breeding of Tarpans, because the Tarpan as such is an animal of the Steppes of southern Russia and the Ukraine and represents one ecotype (wild, feral or crossbreds) in a certain area at a certain space in time. Nothing more, nothing less. However, if you do want to breed a Tarpan looking animal, then at least try to study some historical sources about the Tarpan. Some phenotypical things that are not according to tarpan are: - bi-colored manes. All the historical sources we have (about 15 in total) regarding the Tarpan, all state the fact that the Tarpan had uni colored manes and tail. - I also see a rather proportional small head. It looks like there is some disproportion between the size of the head and the rest of the body. The historical sources regarding the Tarpan talk about relatively big heads. - standing manes. On the ABU page, there is also an advertisement regarding a new edition of a book about natural grazing. They talk about Tarpans with standing manes, etcetera. There is not one source (including Gmelini) that states that the Tarpan had standing manes. All sources speak about short but falling manes, which seems to be more in line with the climate they live in. - i do miss zebra striping on the legs. Some things that are according to Tarpan are; - dun color is correct. The blue dun (black with dun) color has been emphasized way too much in the breeding of Konik and the German leg of the Sorraia. According to the historical sources, Tarpans were 'tan' and (field) 'mouse colored' (where 'mouse color' can range from more yellowish to grulla). - skull conformation. Przewalski horses have a long skull that is not seen in any wild pleistocene and holocene and any present day caballine horse breed. The crossbreds seem to have a better proportioned skull. When looking at the total package of characteristics of the Tarpan, as emerges from the historical sources, a Tarpan should look like this:  So what are the best breeds to recreate a Tarpan looking animal? Przewalski could have their use. Regarding other breeds; that is not so easily defined. One things is that any selection has to be made for breeds or individuals that are fit for purpose and are able to survive on their own and can survive under harsh conditions. I would say that Exmoor pony would be one of the candidates (to get uni colored partly falling manes). To get more stripes in a Tarpan-like crossbred population, i would not select a breed but i would select individuals of multiple breeds (that are fit for purpose though) with those stripings. Apart from photoshopped animals, no breed represents the striping range that the original Tarpan is said to have had. And even the striping part needs to be handled with care, since the Tarpan sources do mention zebra stripes on the legs, but virtually not one mentions crossbar striping for instance. So what we actually do know about the striping of the Tarpan is scanty and is mainly about stripes on the legs. The rest is speculation or myth. And then what? If you manage to succeed in recreating a Tarpan look-a-like, then you have rebred a phenotypical looking animal that was mainly build for a certain area with a certain climate and vegetation at a certain point in time. Best wishes, Henri
- peterdonck
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- thunaer
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Dear Peter, i did find an interesting quote of you on the following page http://www.paardnatuurlijk.nl/index_js.htm?http://www.paardnatuurlijk.nl/fcgi/pnforum.fcgi?request=showsubject&cat=5&subject=16205&page=1You state the following: " English translation: " but the problem with those scientists is that they are all people that have nothing to do with horses, they don't know anything about breeding and rewilding and how and which horses [horse breeds] were dragged around the globe and why, nor do they have any knowledge about modern genetics regarding color inheritance" By stating this, you just disqualified every scientist on this board. And you just disqualified every scientific study regarding horse breeds, horse evolution, horse genetics, etcetera. And you just confirmed that your disqualifications of scientists and so called 'pseudo-scientists' on this board is repeated on other boards.
Henri, you did something here again that I consider a little as a bad habit of yours (no offence meant, we all have been younger than we are now !), you didn't put down the full quote here, it read as follows, and everybody here is educated enough to pull it through a translationmachine on the internet and grab the sense of it : " ...(bijvoorbeel de Sufolk Punch ) ...maar een kompleet manmade breed, terwijl de exmoor toch wel meer autenticiteit in zich draagt als je het mij vraagt en het is niet omdat een paard/pony al zolang als rijdier wordt gebruikt dat het niet close-related kan zijn tot het "oerpaard" (zeg maar de gepredomesticeerde) anders heb ik er hier ook een paar staan die ik stilaan als oerpaard kan gaan beschouwen.... maar het probleem met die wetenschappers is dat het allemaal lui zijn die niks met paarden hebben, niks weten over breeding en verwildering en hoe en welke paarden wanneer over de aardbol versleept werden noch hebben ze weet van moderne genetica ivm kleurvererving, zo wordt bv het predomesticatie equus lambei als verdomde palomino voorgesteld aan de hand van een half halfverrrot ijs-paard dat door golddiggers werd opgedolven en stinkend aan de wetenschap werd doorgeschoven, daar vonden ze wat lange witte maanharen maar ze gingen kompleet voorbij aan de eveneens donkerbruinzwarte onderbeenharen en ze hadden niet door dat een "oerkleur" als grulla toevallig ook bestaat uit een zwarte midden-manen-streep die als aalstreep verder doorloopt tot in de staart en geflankeerd wordt door evenlang opgroeiende sidehairs (zeg maar doorgroeiend bodyhaar) en precies dat bodyhaar kan in de winter bijna wit schijnen....."" you know how things go on a forum, this one (carnivora) is not different, it's the "plat-du-jour" on a topic you get served and sometimes the sauce on it, is made of a pinch of frustration, pulling it out of it's context is like a przewalski in the Vondel-park. This topic was started earlier this year because of the clip you figuered in and which I mentioned and transcribed earlier on and in which you and your buddies (if I may call them like that) stated the exmoor was the only....etcetera. - i made a quote in favour of the exmoor - my horses i refer to are the ones carrying the Lp-gene (not the spottinggene but the mottlinggene) as well as probably the real spottinggene (since not defined until today, but phenotypically displayed ) allthough I do not consider them as really viable in a complete natural setting, but later more on that) - the scientists here offended, were in this a global term for certified people loosing their objectivity and the knowledge of, at all times, balancing their opinion on ongoing new scientific data - the pseudoscientists are those who pretend to act on a scientific basis while they only want to get some economic benefit out of their declarations (again Difoidl here gave the example of the german rewilding projects and the crossing of Przw x knk ) - I have never been specific nor did I name anyone, so you can bash me now alltogether, burn my home and eat my horses for it, but i still feel in the same way : ultimately it is only a small part of all scientists which are working on redigging the predomesticated horse and all it's predecessors, and do this out of a personal cerebral interest, the combination of scientist and true horse(wo)man is even more rare. Many geneticist are more statisticists who do not have a broad view on all horseaspects but do have the knowledge of sorting things out mathematically and objectively, but after that, another viewpoint can be helpfull to clear things out and relate them in a much broader perspective. I believe the paper on f.i. horsecolour is therefore not thorough enough or it is interpreted in an incomplete way. On the otherhand, so called horsepeople (true and pseudo), usually do NOT have the scientific knowledege or background to be unbiased on certain horserelated topics. For most horsepeople, horserelated science is for instance the wonderfull world of artificial insemination and embryotransplantation, while they do not care about the longterm origins of their animals (most studbooks date from the 1930s onward), nor of the original traits that were lost but important (f.i. selfsupporting feeding on roughage in a natural setting and climate, or the simple fact of foaling on their own). Is this soothing a little your rage or aversion ? oh and by the way, part of my frustration was due to the (to my eyes) clumsy way of catching less than a dozen furry poneys with half a dozen people and a tame dummie-mare, because they were so incredibely wild, while on all british pics you see them haltered, groomed, shined and saddled or harnassed. but again, don't feel offended, we are far to few we better work and think together if we ever want to rewild europe even a little bit (but you can start around my house ! for sure !)
- thunaer
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Peter,
thanks for the explanation. Like i explained, your image of me was also build on two sketchy quotes from a television broadcast that obviously always is editted afterwards. You also called us 'bittless farmergirls'. That is where my frustration kicked in and not without some cause i believe. So yes, it might be a bad habit, but in this story i am not the only one doing it. The conclusion is that we cannot judge eachother from some quotes, be it from a tv broadcast or from a forum like this one.
I am glad i finally got through to you.
I fully agree, that we need to bundle our strengths if we are ever going to successfully rewild horses and Europe.
Regarding the paper on colour, they expanded it, see Provost et al., 2011. They found out that a population of the prehistoric wild horses also had the leopard spotting gene. Provost et al. is the same group as Ludwig et al. Part of them are horse breeders/lovers indeed. It is even more or less the same group as Cieslak et al. The research of Cieslak et al is also going to be expanded. I helped them get samples. I do believe that horse breeders and scientists need eachother. And, like i stated, we also need a holistic approach.
Have to go for now.
Best wishes,
Henri
- thunaer
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Dear Peter, Equus Antunesi seems to be a horse species that is based on scanty information and findings dating about 100.000 years ago. I cannot find anything substantial on that form of Equus. I suppose that the slender legs are an adjustment (evolution again) to a certain type of environment. Maybe long legs developed under certain wet conditions. See for instance Moose. Regarding the muzzle, the same cave where Eisenmann quotes a painting from, has also paintings from the same period, like this one  All in all too sketchy to draw hard conclusion, as far as i can tell now. Best wishes, Henri
- peterdonck
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Henri wrote : "You also called us 'bittless farmergirls'. That is where my frustration kicked in and not without some cause i believe...."
haha ! funny this one, nonono ! "the bittless farmergirls" that was certainly not on you, somewhere in that video there were some girls apearing riding bittless, and since it is a forum and site for ironfree-riding (no shoes, no bitts) and in favour of keeping horses in a modern natural way, in social groups, not in stalls, on grass and hay with as less additives as possible (in my case apart from salt, nothing else, except my two mares of 25 and 30) it's often a muddy thing in our lowlands so there we're all farmergirls and boys, whatever our age .... so again, ripping it out of it's context... do not take it personal !
I do not have the Provoustpaper on colour (Lp), i had other sources (press - yess !) so if you could post it here or send it PM, i'd like to read it through, see if i have to update my mind or not, before we go further on colour. I also like to discuss further my historical pieces here on encebros and on the Franken-thing in regard to the local drafthorses around Poitiers, you never know what pieces of the big horsepuzzle can be put toghether here, on whatever old breed of group of horses.
On equus Antunesi, it is clearly mentioned in the paper of dr. Eisenmann, so its not complete horsepoo I believe, to me it's an indication that long not everything has been dug up on ancient horsehistory; and that could be in favour of southern longheaded and longlegged horses like sorraia, teke, caspian, barb and such (even arabs did not have such a crooked little dishheads a 100 years ago (early studbook, Crabbetarabians f.i. ))
bye ! deadlines and diner for tonight !
- thunaer
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- peterdonck
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Henri wrote : "You also called us 'bittless farmergirls'. That is where my frustration kicked in and not without some cause i believe...."
haha ! funny this one, nonono ! "the bittless farmergirls" that was certainly not on you, somewhere in that video there were some girls apearing riding bittless, and since it is a forum and site for ironfree-riding (no shoes, no bitts) and in favour of keeping horses in a modern natural way, in social groups, not in stalls, on grass and hay with as less additives as possible (in my case apart from salt, nothing else, except my two mares of 25 and 30) it's often a muddy thing in our lowlands so there we're all farmergirls and boys, whatever our age .... so again, ripping it out of it's context... do not take it personal !
I do not have the Provoustpaper on colour (Lp), i had other sources (press - yess !) so if you could post it here or send it PM, i'd like to read it through, see if i have to update my mind or not, before we go further on colour. I also like to discuss further my historical pieces here on encebros and on the Franken-thing in regard to the local drafthorses around Poitiers, you never know what pieces of the big horsepuzzle can be put toghether here, on whatever old breed of group of horses.
On equus Antunesi, it is clearly mentioned in the paper of dr. Eisenmann, so its not complete horsepoo I believe, to me it's an indication that long not everything has been dug up on ancient horsehistory; and that could be in favour of southern longheaded and longlegged horses like sorraia, teke, caspian, barb and such (even arabs did not have such a crooked little dishheads a 100 years ago (early studbook, Crabbetarabians f.i. ))
bye ! deadlines and diner for tonight !
Dear Peter, i agree it warrants more research. However, Przewalski also has a narrow long skull, but has strong jaws with firmly rooted teeth. Still their skull form would suit the Equus ssp. I will contact Eisenmann to see what is meant here. And if possible some more information about climate and vegetation that was around when the horses lived. 100.000 is a long time ago. Eisenmann also compares the Equus ssp. with cave paintings, but first of all that picture she uses is very sketchy and surrounding pictures in the same cave from the same time period show horses with shorter skulls with thick jaws. Regarding warm and dry periods and horses with more slender bones; all the findings in Europe, also from warm and dry periods, show horses with a firm build, thick bones and strong jaws with deeply rooted teeth. So, i will ask Eisenmann to comment on this. Best wishes and enjoy your dinner, Henri
- thunaer
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Dear all,preliminary research, diagonal 'research' of a paper by Eisenmann from 1989 and in French, so i have to confirm this, shows that Equus Antunesi is based on; - findings of individuals from three different sites from Portugal from about 30.000 BC - they found only 1 (one) skull ! - a very sketchy cave drawing, that is surrounded by images of horses of the same age with another more stocky build. - according to Eisenmann, the Equus ssp. lived in a cold (frosty) dry climate with a hard, rocky, surface. - Eisenmann confirms that all other horse findings in Europe, including Iberia, show another build - She compares the head of Equus Antunesi with that of the Przewalski. Teeth are very long indicating a very firm and deep rooting, like Przewalski. - whithers height for one individual could be calculated at 141 cm - important to note that all material came from musea. She did not do or oversee any excavation herself.
To me it all seems very little to go on and it doesn't automatically seem to resemble a Barb like horse type. If Eisenmann is correct, the ecotype lived under different climatological circumstances than today.
Will ask Eisenmann for more details.
Best wishes,
Henri
- peterdonck
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- thunaer
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Dear Peter,
thanks for the links. I know them. Those are from the guy behind the World Museum of Man, where i am curator. Big problem is that those skulls and mandibles are dug from gravel pits by workers. They are not from archeological excavations. Dating is very inaccurate and findings cannot be substantiated. However, the owner of the museum and paleodirect wants to donate teeth for ancient dna research, pro bono, for science. I will contact Ludwig if they are interested. I will send you the Provost et al paper tomorrow morning.
Best wishes,
Henri
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Ursus arctos
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Jan 10 2012, 10:03 PM
Post #11
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Autotrophic Organism
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- peterdonck
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dfoidl : While it is true that aurochs genes and wild horse genes are present today because man domesticated these animals, the original animals are extinct today because of man either. So, primary the extinction of the wild horse is due to man, and secondary the survival of its genes is because of man - or do you mean the przewalski's horse? If there was no man, wild horses and aurochsen would be a solid part of their original ecosystems, that's for sure.
we might not like to admit it, but man is part of nature to, in fact all acts we do are natural to us ; developping our mind and our handicrafts is a form of evolution too ; even if the result is not really brilliant..... So some animals have evoluated under domestication to a certain symbiosis with man : providing him transport, power, hides, milk, meat was beneficial for man, the animals in return get safety, food and health care allthough they had to give up freedom, selfsupporting and they lost their natural control on fecondity and reproduction. Alas, how things go now it's not very uplifting, domestic animals are at the end of their physical mutations and man is utterly showing the limitations of his intelligence....
- peterdonck
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Henri : Exmoor is bay + pangare. Przewalski is bay dun + pangare. Since dun is dominant, a cross would result in a crossbreed with a short but partly falling mane, przewalski coloration and uni colored (dark brown, blackish) manes and tail. Would be something. Our foundation did an experiment years ago and did crossbreed Konik with Exmoor. The result was a bay dun horse with clear eel stripe, zebra stripes on the legs, mealy muzzle surrounding a dark nose. Suprisingly, one out of three horses produced a completely standing mane.
Dun is not responsable for standing manes Henri, and all the genes mentioned here are dominant and act together black E, agouti A and dun D, pangare P (supposedly). So i do not see why bay (EAd) x dun (EAD) would give partially standing manes. Anyway : I think the colour of sorraia/konik/etc (certainly a form of dun) could be the result, not of black + Dun (E.aaD.) but of wildbay + dun (E.A.+D.). This because of the legs not being fully filled with black, the sides of the canonbones stay paler through which the zebrastripes become visible. Problem is that on the agouti locus there is not yet a test apart from ON "A" and OFF "a" - the difference between A+, A and At has still to be defined. At stands for sooty-bay which is a form of bay that darkens the animal from the spine down (the effect is not as strong as black-and-tan in dogs, but it is comparable). It could be that horses like the exmoor have the At at their agouti locus, and At it thought of to be recessive to A+(wildbay). It could be a natural mutation in favour of "Gloger's rule" (the damper the climate, the darker the pigmentation). This could cause the duntraits to become invisible (the Brittish studbook of exmoors states dun to be an accepted colour) So if you cross homozygous animals exmoor x konik = EEAtAtDDPP x EEA+A+DDpp results in EEA+AtDDPp which is the colour of the przewalski : mealymouth-dun (wildbay "A+" rules out sootybay "At", and pangare "P" is dominant to non-pangare "p") does this sound acceptable to you ?
- dfoidl
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- peterdonck
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we might not like to admit it, but man is part of nature to, in fact all acts we do are natural to us ; developping our mind and our handicrafts is a form of evolution too ; even if the result is not really brilliant..... So some animals have evoluated under domestication to a certain symbiosis with man : providing him transport, power, hides, milk, meat was beneficial for man, the animals in return get safety, food and health care allthough they had to give up freedom, selfsupporting and they lost their natural control on fecondity and reproduction. Alas, how things go now it's not very uplifting, domestic animals are at the end of their physical mutations and man is utterly showing the limitations of his intelligence....
Well, I think that depends on your definition of nature. Since we are the only species which is capable of self-reflexion, we constantly wonder how nature would look without human influence, which turned out to be destructive for biodiversity in most cases. This is why "nature without human influence" is used as guideline for nature conservation and nature restauration, and when we think of a world without man's destructive influence on biodiversity (which is measurable since independent from the definition of "nature"), horses and cattle would be integral parts of their ecosystems in their non-domesticated forms. That is, wild horse and aurochs. But of course it is true that things can be viewed with the thought that humans are a species like every other species and a biotical factor of evolution, and that its interaction with animals are part of nature. For example, domestic animals are animals which live in a non-voluntary symbiosis with this primate species. The only problem is that this definiton of nature makes it a bit more difficult for nature conservation to explain and communicate their reasons for wishing a nature with minimum human influence.
- thunaer
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"Dun is not responsable for standing manes Henri," I know, i didn't say that dun was responsible for standing manes. "does this sound acceptable to you ?" Yes it does. Thanks for the detailed explanation! For a reference, see photo. The three in the forefront are Konik x Exmoor. The one left has standing manes. The middle one in front has almost standing manes. All are fully adult. http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/6970/horse2i.jpgBest wishes, Henri
- thunaer
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And another photo. The one left is Konik x Exmoor. Please note that the Exmoor dad was a rather dark animal with less pangare than usual. That could account for the absence of a clearly defined lighter belly. What you see are also clearly defined stripes on the upper leg. http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/7962/horse1r.jpgBest wishes, Henri
- dfoidl
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Thanks for sharing these fascinating photos!  Those crosses look really interesting, their colour and head shape reminds me of the przewalski's horse, the prominent eel stripe is interesting. Is exmoor x konik crossing a perspective for backbreeding the european wild horse (or at least, one ecotype of it)? How does this fit with the genetics (since I read in this article that koniks genetically do not have much in common with european true wild horses http://www.eurowildlife.org/news/wild-horses-for-europe–-which-breed-is-the-best/)? I am also highly curious about the frozen carcasses of wild horses. Are pictures of these available in the internet?
- peterdonck
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interesting pictures indeed, but not really a scientific aproach thoug ! a little "Heckie" so to say  anyway, my explanation is partly assumptive Henri, since there is no conclusive test for DUN and there is not yet a discriminative test on A, A+ and At looking at the pictures i wonder if pangare is not incomplete dominant, which means there could be a intermediate form we see on the crosses, but would still frame in with my explanation. the legs are rather very dark, darker than in koniks and sorraias. what happened to these animals, keeping them in the breedingpool is not a good idea, wild-meat ? On the standing mane : looking at the condition of the horses (overly fat) it could be because of "sweet-itch" (zomerexceem, sommerekzem) the season before ?!
- peterdonck
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just found out that there is now a test discerning At (brown) this is what "E.AtAtD."or "E.AtaD." looks like (bronwdun) :  compared to blackdun (E.aaD.) :   waiting on the test for wildbaydun (EA+D)
- peterdonck
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I had to mention on the blackdun ( E.aaD.) also called slate or mousecoloured or dark grulla, you see no pale sidehairs along mane and base of tail so no twocoloured or "mixed" hairs this is "normal"bay + dun (E.A.D.), notice the orangy shade of the body :  all images can be seen free on www.dungenes.org
- thunaer
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Dear Peter, thanks for all the information " interesting pictures indeed, but not really a scientific aproach thoug ! a little "Heckie" so to say  " Yes indeed. That's why we stopped breeding. It wasn't even on purpose. Still, we learn by building up best practices as well. " looking at the pictures i wonder if pangare is not incomplete dominant, which means there could be a intermediate form we see on the crosses, but would still frame in with my explanation." It could also be a partial expression of Pangare? I ask this, because in Portugal we saw Garrano with only a light hinterpart of the belly. The rest of the belly was bay like the rest of the body. They thought it was a white part and a sign of domestication, but since it was constant in the whole population i think it is a partial expression of Pangare. They promised to send samples to Ludwig and team, so this can be researched properly. " what happened to these animals, keeping them in the breedingpool is not a good idea, wild-meat ?" Yes, they have gone the way of the Dodo. " On the standing mane : looking at the condition of the horses (overly fat) it could be because of "sweet-itch" (zomerexceem, sommerekzem) the season before ?!" Could be, i don't know. Normally we select all animals out, who have sweet itch, since we do not want those genes in our populations. Do you know a good address to have horse color genes checked out? I am still thinking on the Garrano pangare. Best wishes, Henri
- peterdonck
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Henri, there are different Universities in the USA doing tests, this one is UC.DAvies in california which has a good reputation, they do offer a dunzygosity test but it is until now not conclusive for all dunhorses, especially of iberian ancestry, and I have to remind you that so far there is no test for pangare : http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/horse.phpyou can find others here, it's on a site about all kinds of dunhorses and combinations with other genes, interesting on colour-aspect for fancy horsebreeders but not for research on ancienity : ( you'll see Gus Cothran Ph.D. of Texas A&M is between them too) http://www.dungenes.org/color_tests.htmthis is a site on horsecolour too, very educating and set up by a brittish geneticist Dr Glyn Jenkins of Aberystwyth University : ( but mind you : there is a lot to find on genetics of domestic animals but 99% is on specialities in breeds and types of the dog-(or horse, cat, rat ...)-of the day !) http://www.horse-genetics.com/index.html
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firefly
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Nov 17 2012, 03:07 PM
Post #12
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Bucardo
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Dec 29 2012, 07:00 AM
Post #13
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The pottoka is an original mountain pony of Basque Country in Spain. Pottoka horse is a breed that has always lived free in the mountains of northern Spain. This breed belongs to the group of old horses in northern Spain called Cantabrian-Pyrenees horses. Horses are usually small black or brown.
Northern Spain old horses.http://zaragozasalvaje.blogspot.com.es/2012/07/el-caballo-cantabro-pirenaico.html
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-oM2Vya8q2gw/T__gZRfebTI/AAAAAAAACts/bYuwga1HK0k/s1600/pottoka.jpg
 http://yeguadabugati.com/uploads/fotos/productos/1331230388.JPG
http://yeguadabugati.com/uploads/fotos/productos/1331230655.JPG
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4086/4950480799_ee52244f98_z.jpg
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3294/3004719970_c08750ae05_b.jpg
Edited by Bucardo, Dec 29 2012, 07:15 AM.
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Bucardo
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Dec 29 2012, 07:25 AM
Post #14
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http://www.ellinceiberico.com/foro/download/file.php?id=637&mode=view
Przewalski horse.
http://www.ellinceiberico.com/foro/download/file.php?id=636&mode=view
Jaca navarra. This is a Northern Spain horse breed.
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Dfoidl
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Aug 9 2013, 12:09 AM
Post #15
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- Roberta
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with some nice pics of horses with really impressive wild type markings.
The markings in some mustangs are impressive indeed, but I don't think that's necessarily indicative of a very "primitive" horse breed. Apparently the striping wasn't that prominent in european wild horses, historic references mention it only seldom. And the Przewalski's horse doesn't have that prominent stripes either.
Although some Mustangs have a nice wild colour and they are certainly useful in creating a horse suited as a wild horse substitute, I don't think there is any evidence that their body proportions and skull shape are reminiscent of the wild horse (quite domestic).
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but in its social behaviour and its intra-species aggressiveness it seems to me to be very different.
Perhaps there is a tendency, but as I mentioned on my blog, even semi-feral domestic horses can behave very aggressively. The pure Koniks in the Lippeaue fight each day, and the dominant stallion even killed its father. Probably we'd really need the wild type to check if there was a difference and how big it was. Historic references state that Tarpans could get very feisty as well, and also killed concurring domestic horses just like Przewalski stallions.
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for North America
I'm not so sure if the reintroduction of feral horses in North america is a well-supported idea. According to documents like these http://joomla.wildlife.org/documents/policy/feral_horses_1.pdf mustangs might actually have a diversity-reducing effect on the local habitats, but I haven't seen scientific literature on that yet.
Thanks for pointing out the Liebenthaler; I haven't mentioned it yet because I thought it was just another dilution of the Konik, but certainly that didn't appreciate it enough. Konik x Fjord actually seems like a good combination to me, add some Exmoor and it's nearly perfect.
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