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| European Wild Horses; originally posted by Dfoidl | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 9 2012, 06:44 PM (28,365 Views) | |
| bullseye | Aug 10 2013, 09:18 AM Post #16 |
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Autotrophic Organism
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"Apparently the striping wasn't that prominent in european wild horses, historic references mention it only seldom. And the Przewalski's horse doesn't have that prominent stripes either." It would appear, apparently, that the subject of stripes is not that simple. Have you seen this article? He appears to have no "axe-to-grind" or position to defend which, IMHO, is always welcome. http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au/cg_przewalski_horse.htm I find your lack of comment on the Sorraia interesting in light of the apparent "Sorraia-Konik" connection. It seems too much to attribute to just chance. http://www.sorraia.org/ also makes for interesting reading, "where there is so much smoke, there has to be a little fire" as the saying goes. Rip |
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| firefly | Aug 10 2013, 11:50 AM Post #17 |
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Herbivore
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Mustangs, in my opinion are very interesting and inside their populations we can find 3 or 4 different primitive ecotypes. It are needed culling and a serious methodology though, to make something out of it (separating each type from the other and so on). I´m actually working on a project that pretends to conserve the primitive mustang. Some have very rare haplogroups, that in some cases it were found to exist only in Iberian Wild horses (as people usually know mustangs in America have origin on iberian horses, which were probably domesticated or introgressed in iberian domestic stocks). They are not the result of an invented tradition or of a look alike. And something about the american wild horses (they are surprising close to European horses): http://www.livescience.com/9589-surprising-history-america-wild-horses.html Some pictures of mustangs: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() This is the result of a fast google search (apart from the stripped horses pictures that I already had with me). In Iberia we have several cave paintings with zebra stripped horses (on certain parts of their body), so this feature was evidently present, even since the Pleistocene. I think that this feature is an adaptation for an open habitat (particularly present during the drier periods, like Ice Ages, for example). Edited by firefly, Feb 6 2014, 08:12 PM.
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| Dfoidl | Aug 10 2013, 07:05 PM Post #18 |
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Herbivore
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This connection was contradicted in more recent studies. The Sorraia seems to be more closely related to Lustano and Mustangs; the Wikipedia article gives a summery of some studies. |
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| firefly | Aug 11 2013, 02:25 AM Post #19 |
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Herbivore
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Lusitano was also found to have some genetic connections with iberian wild horses: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100107114431.htm They are from a different iberian wild horse haplogroup compared with some mustangs (but this doesn´t mean that´s absent in mustangs, it just could have been overlooked). I didn´t saw this type of connection on Sorraia with wild horses yet. Regarding Garrano and Retuerta, yes, they seem also to be related with local wild horses (possibly some more very few breeds with iberian origin may have this primitive influence as well). Let´s hope that more studies give us light about this subject. Edited by firefly, Aug 12 2013, 10:06 AM.
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| bullseye | Aug 12 2013, 01:05 AM Post #20 |
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Autotrophic Organism
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@ dfoidl “This connection was contradicted in more recent studies. The Sorraia seems to be more closely related to Lustano and Mustangs; the Wikipedia article gives a summery of some studies.” Which “Wikipedia article” are you referencing? Being “related to Lustano and Mustangs” is a no brainer but are they really just “related” to Sorraia or are they “descended” from them is a much more valid question that remains unanswered. And what makes this most recent finding any more “correct” than the other? Nothing is ever proven, just disproven. Statistics never lie but, unfortunately, I’m afraid the same can’t be said about statisticians. There is a very fine line between manipulating data and “massaging” it. It is a lot harder to get “we agree” papers published than ones that contradict a previous position. Galbreath, et al, for example, showed that the Kouprey was a feral Zebu – Banteng hybrid, based on genetics, at least until a fossilized Kouprey skull was found dating from the Pleistocene – Holocene interface. More over, that was published in a “peer reviewed journal” as I recall. “Micro-satellites” are the current genetic “toy du jour”, before long there will be another “wunder kind” come along and will either contradict both of these conclusions or side with one or the other. I try to take a long view of a subject; I get as far back as I can and still “see” the “forest” without a “tree” blocking a major portion of my view. I look for “parallels” and “convergences” to better decide what I am really looking at in a particular situation. It is all antidotal, based largely on deductive reasoning, but the biosphere is full of examples of “if it worked once, do it again” situations and while it “proves” nothing, it provides examples of a possible precedence. As a case in point, why can there not have been more than one species or ecotype of horse in Eurasia? Africa, south of the Sahara, has several species of Zebra and any number of ecotypes in an area of comparable size. Was that a remnant wild population Ruy d'Andrade saw in the Sorraia River valley? Maybe, albeit infiltrated by feral animals, or maybe not, Ruy d'Andrade apparently never claimed they were “pure Tarpans” nor did he claim that his Sorraia were a direct, free of human influence, wild link to any remnant Iberian “Tarpan” population. What is just as interesting, to me, is the heavy striping they expressed. They were living in a swampy area, swampy areas equal flies in my experience, does their striping affect fly attraction in the same way it apparently does with Zebra in Africa? Does fly pressure, as well as other unknown factors; determine the amount of striping in a local ecotype? Hardy Oelke makes some interesting comments on observed behavior of the Sorraia in the "Vale de Zebro refuge". Many relate to a preference for wooded over open areas. Horses are descended from what were apparently forest dwelling animals. Are the "forest dwelling Tarpan" of Europe still expressing the "primitive" behavior and the "Steppe Tarpan" a derived behavior ? Is the "forest dwelling Tarpan" expressing a "re-evolved" derived behavior from the "Steppe Tarpan"? Rip |
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| Dfoidl | Aug 12 2013, 06:39 AM Post #21 |
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Herbivore
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I was thinking of the article on the Sorraia itself, sorry for being unclear here.
Honestly, I think that's very unlikely. The wild horse died out earlier in the south than in the north, and that they survived into the 20th century is very speculative. The last mention of wild or possibly feral horses in western Europe (Pyrenees, Camargue, Great Britain) that I am aware of is found in Charles Hamilton Smith's document, and he describes the wild horses looking quite different from what the Sorraia looks like. After all, there is absolutely no proof for what d'Andrade saw, and if he really saw something. There's no way to proof that. No skins, no photographs et cetera. Of course it would hardly been possible for him to do this, but that doesn't change that his claims are not verifiable.
I'm not ruling out that at all, in fact I mentioned on several occasions on my blogs that there were several (colour) morphs of the Tarpan inside Europe. Yes, the stripes are quite prominent in the Sorraia, but saying that alone indicates a primitive nature of that breed is like saying that a very prominent, broad eel stripe is indicative of a very aurochs-like breed. Prominent stripes can be the result of artificial breeding just as well (or perhaps a bottleneck, as the Sorraia went through). Apart from the colour, nothing on the phenotype of this breed is indicative of a primitive horse breed. It's a tall and slender breed (all historic descriptions speak of small and sturdy wild horses), the skull is longish and gracile (all historic descriptions mention very robust heads) and curved strangely downwards et cetera. It looks like a tall riding horse, nothing like living wild equines no matter of which habitat/subgenus. This paper suggests an arabian ancestry of southern-Iberian horses like the Lusitano and Sorraia, and I think that's probable: http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/96/6/663.full.pdf |
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| firefly | Aug 12 2013, 09:38 AM Post #22 |
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Herbivore
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Any extra informations about the origins of Arabian horses? Lusitano origins vary according to the herd, btw. |
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| Dfoidl | Aug 13 2013, 06:57 AM Post #23 |
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Herbivore
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I guess they are from the Arabian peninsular or some other arabic regions. I don't that there is anything primitive about Arabian horses with their tall and gracile body and those slender, down-turned heads (that we also see in the Sorraia). There is no compelling evidence for wild horses like that. |
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| firefly | Aug 13 2013, 09:40 AM Post #24 |
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Herbivore
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Ok, I´ll make a small research about the Arabian horses origin (mainly by their genome). I already have read about them, but never did got in greater detail. And yes, I know that they don´t seem to be closely related with wild horses. Edited by firefly, Aug 13 2013, 09:41 AM.
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| firefly | Aug 13 2013, 10:48 PM Post #25 |
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Herbivore
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Wild Horses in Chernobyl Exclusion Zone (Equus Przevalskii) Edited by Taipan, Feb 23 2018, 04:39 PM.
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| Dfoidl | Aug 16 2013, 11:03 PM Post #26 |
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Herbivore
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I think the uppermost cave painting is interesting, it might indicate the present of black dun wild horses even back in the pleistocene. Where exactly is it from? This very good reconstruction of Equus lambei also shows a plausible colour: http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/071/f/7/combination_of_horse_3_by_sinammonite-d5xuyq9.jpg |
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| firefly | Aug 16 2013, 11:24 PM Post #27 |
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Herbivore
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I think that´s from the Basque region. Regarding Equus lambei, I know about this: Edited by Taipan, Feb 23 2018, 04:40 PM.
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| Dfoidl | Aug 17 2013, 02:32 AM Post #28 |
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Herbivore
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According to this study, E. lambei might have been more closely related with donkeys and zebras than with horses: http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.0030241 so the falling mane in this video might be wrong. Those mummies with the falling mane might be of a E. leninensis-related type. |
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| Roberta | Aug 18 2013, 08:41 PM Post #29 |
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It is a shame what happened to the Dülmen Pony (I think outside of the “Wild horse range” some breeders still have more original Dülmen Ponies, but I am not sure), but the Dülmen Pony in its ecotype is still much more than a diluted Konik. It has lived semi-ferally to ferally in a climatically very challenging habitat basically forever. Koniks are a domestic breed of the continental climate with winters that are cold and snowy but dry. The Münsterland on the other hand is part of the oceanic climate zone. Winters there still have lots of snow but, while milder, are also much wetter, and the Dülmen Ponies lived and still live in a swampy and poor area. Any non-Dülmen genes that got passed into the Dülmen gene pool had to pass the test of surviving in this habitat under the pressure of intense competition from horses with better adapted genes. So I think that while the introgression of Welsh Ponies, Mongolians, Exmoors, and especially Koniks has left its mark on the build and looks of the Dülmen, in its adaption to the challenging habitat the gene pool will still be very much the original Dülmen one. This breed should not be underestimated and written off. It would be a valuable adition to any rewilding programmes in similar climates. (Why anybody would have wanted to change the trademark Dülmen yellow dun into a dime-a-dozen Konik grey dun is beyond me.) Edited by Roberta, Aug 18 2013, 08:45 PM.
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| phil90 | Aug 19 2013, 11:22 PM Post #30 |
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Autotrophic Organism
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Dear all, What about the European wildlife's project of back-breeding wild horse using Exmoor x Hucul? (http://www.eurowildlife.org/news/wild-horses-are-returning-to-the-heart-of-europe/http://www.eurowildlife.org/news/wild-horses-are-returning-to-the-heart-of-europe/)? As a self confessed ignorant in "breeding back wild horse" I have 2 observations/answers: 1-Why using only two breeds for a breeding back attempt? 2 Why to classify this project as breeding back?, It seems a programme to "create" a primitive wild horse breed suitable for Central European rewilding\grazing projects using two beautiful breeds. . . But "bred back the European Wild Horse" I think it's a more complicated and elaborated thing.... Anyway I'm really curious to see the first crosses between Exmoor and Hucul, the behavior of the new breed, and its capability to live wild. Have a nice day!!!!!!! Edited by phil90, Aug 19 2013, 11:28 PM.
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