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| European Wild Horses; originally posted by Dfoidl | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 9 2012, 06:44 PM (28,364 Views) | |
| firefly | Aug 20 2013, 08:14 AM Post #31 |
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Herbivore
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Well, they´ll use those 2 breeds in some regions, not everywhere. In Iberia, they started with the primitive type of Garrano (Faia Brava) and the primitive type of Retuerta (Campanarios de Azaba), for example. And quite probably some other breeds will also be used in more reserves, as well. Edited by firefly, Aug 20 2013, 08:20 AM.
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| firefly | Aug 20 2013, 08:18 AM Post #32 |
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Herbivore
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I´ll have a look, though if more articles could be gathered, that would be perfect. If we find out that E. lambei is more related with zebras and donkeys, then maybe it would be better to direct that information to the video author. |
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| phil90 | Aug 20 2013, 04:32 PM Post #33 |
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Autotrophic Organism
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@firefly: You are talking about the Rewiling Europe project in Iberia, I'm referring to the European wildilife attempt to bred back the European Wild Horse. . . I think that are two different things!
Edited by phil90, Aug 20 2013, 05:07 PM.
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| bullseye | Aug 21 2013, 12:08 AM Post #34 |
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Autotrophic Organism
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@ Dfoidl I think it is time for a reality check. I tried to reach you via the PM function on this list but failed. http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.0030241 has nothing to do with " E. lambei", it deals with the "New World stilt-legged horses (including E. francisci, E. tau, E. quinni" and a South American group. It states that, while a case can be made from comparative morphology, genetic testing reveals the "New World stilt-legged horses" have no connection to "E. cf. hemiones, and E. (Asinus) cf. kiang)", just the opposite of your comment. I have been unable to find any reference to "E. leninensis" as a valid species or synonym. Several sources, on the other hand, cite " E. lambei" is a synonym for "E. ferus przewalskii" While I am at it, had you read more than the "abstract", apparently, you would have found that http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/96/6/663.full.pdf does not support your conclusions. For starters the "North African horses" discussed are "Barbs" not "Arabians" and it states quite plainly that Sorraia do not cluster with the other southern Iberian horses. It also points out that these "more authentic primitive northern Iberian breeds", you and firefly find so interesting, are the result of "Celtic pony" introgression on Iberian genetics rather than a "remnant Wild horse" populations. I'm not trying to start a "brouhaha" but people need to read those journal articles completely and understand thoroughly what they really say, rather than relying on the "headlines". IMHO, FWIIW, I would have preferred to discuss this in private, rather than the open forum, but apparently, leider, that option is unavailable. Rip Edited by bullseye, Aug 21 2013, 01:58 AM.
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| Dfoidl | Aug 22 2013, 09:14 PM Post #35 |
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Herbivore
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I haven't read the paper carefully yet, I was alluded to it by someone else, or in this case, maybe mislead. You are right, that was negligent of mine, sorry.
To me it seems that these taxa are over-split in general. I would not be surprised if all those species erected for wild horses in the pleistocene turn out to be one species in fact.
I never referred to these breeds as "more authentic primitive etc" nor did I claim that they are remnant wild horse populations (I think it is quite obvious that there is no evidence for remnant wild horses anywhere in Europe). In fact I am aware of british introgression in at least some of the "celtic ponies" in Iberia, (IIRC, the paper lists Pottoka as an example) and also mentioned that on my blog previously. Nevertheless, some of them have a quite wild horse-like phenotype and some, like the Garrano, have feral populations that are known do deal with wolves, just like Exmoors in the past.
No problem, I am thankful for pointing out my negligence here. Yes, the PM function has been disabled here, which is a big, big disadvantage for any forum IMO. Edited by Dfoidl, Aug 22 2013, 09:34 PM.
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| Roberta | Aug 29 2013, 10:03 AM Post #36 |
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Rewilding Europe has a nice series of pictures of Retuerta horses at the Campanarios de Azaba reserve in Spain, unfortunately in gif-format, so they cannot be posted here, see http://rewildingeurope.photoshelter.com/search?I_DSC=CAMPANARIOS%20DE%20AZABA%20BIOLOGICAL%20RESERVE&_ACT=search&I_DSC_AND=t A study on the Retuerta horse claims that "the Retuertas population failed to cluster with either of the two major clades of European and North African breeds, highlighting its uniqueness. In fact, the Retuertas population was positioned at the base of the trees." Unfortunately only the abstract is visible, as the article is not free for view. Searching leads to approximately 3.800 results for Equus lenensis, the Lena horse, synonyms being Equus ferus lenensis and Equus caballus lenensis. Given as authority are variously Russanov, 1968, and Kahlke, 1994. http://www.rhinoresourcecenter.com/pdf_files/129/1297983167.pdf has pictures of the holotype for Equus lenensis Russanov, 1968. |
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| bullseye | Sep 1 2013, 06:46 AM Post #37 |
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Autotrophic Organism
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@ Roberta
Had I been searching for "Equus lenensis, the Lena horse, synonyms being Equus ferus lenensis and Equus caballus lenensis. Given as authority are variously Russanov, 1968, and Kahlke, 1994", I too could have found " leads to approximately 3.800 results". I, on the other hand, was searching for "E. leninensis" as mentioned by Dfoidl . I have to assume you have a source for calling "Equus lenensis' a synonym for "E. leninensis" or vice versa? I don't know what your "day job"is, a "reference librarian" perhaps, but you seem, to have an inordinate amount of time for "computer searches". I can't get the "spell check" to function Rip |
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| bullseye | Sep 6 2013, 04:56 AM Post #38 |
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Autotrophic Organism
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@ dfoidl Your blog entry regarding Smith just adds more data to support the old saying that "great minds think alike". I've been reading it as well, in bits and pieces, and, I guess, the best description of his style might be "verbose". But then "verbose" was the order of the day back at the turn of the eighteenth to the nineteenth century and was the mark of an "educated" person. You just have to keep "wading' until he makes his point.I've been composing an "essay", of sorts, based on "the conundrum presented by, for instance, the Sorraian and Konik horses", mainly as a mental exercise to get my thoughts regarding the topic in a logical lucid context. The subject is not as simple and straight forward as it might appear. Smith, himself, writes, " .......... and should it be said that these were merely feral horses, it might be asked in return, what a true wild species must be like to satisfy the dissentient." Indeed, that is still very much the question. Rip Edited by bullseye, Sep 6 2013, 04:59 AM.
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| Dfoidl | Sep 7 2013, 04:30 AM Post #39 |
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Herbivore
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I for myself think that the free-roaming horses that were described in sources from the 13th to the 19th century in Europe and southern Russia were indeed wild horses (though some specific population might have been mixed or feral), because they are throughout described as being of a kind of dun colour (black dun or bay dun), small and stocky build with a robust head, a frizzly mane, eel stripe, dark or striped legs and displaying intractable or untamable behaviour, killing concurring domestic stallions and defending themselves harshly against predators. To me, that's compelling enough to think that wild horses survived beyond 1000 AD. In fact the same question could be raised about the aurochs: it is hard to distinguish aurochs and cattle remains except for cranial material and very small specimen, and one could easily argue that the animals historically described as aurochs were feralized primitive cattle breeds that developed a larger size, large horns and wild nature. The similarity of the colour described for these "feral cattle" to those depicted in cave paintings could be explained with the fact that many primitive domestic animals have retained the colour of their wild types. |
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| firefly | Sep 13 2013, 09:22 PM Post #40 |
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Herbivore
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Well, that point depends on how each one sees the European Wild horse subject. IMO, really primitive local breeds if well used in backbreeding can be considered an attempt to reconstruct a local ecotype of European wild horse. It would be a major loss in genetic and phenotype variety, if we let other breeds occupy their place. However I think that in European countries, that don´t have primitive breeds, Exmoor horses could be used. |
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| firefly | Sep 13 2013, 09:39 PM Post #41 |
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Herbivore
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Roberta wrote: «It also points out that these "more authentic primitive northern Iberian breeds", you and firefly find so interesting, are the result of "Celtic pony" introgression on Iberian genetics rather than a "remnant Wild horse" populations.» Just like Daniel, I never said that they are a remnant wild horse population. And I actually have found that most of them actually don´t have a Celtic pony introgression (some like Garrano, Caballo Gallego, etc...). Even if that was the case, we would be talking about around the same type of wild horse. Iberian and West European (wild) horses, were connected populations during the Pleistocene. But anyway, we know at least for sure, that Garranos have mtDNA derived from iberian wild horses (probably very few of other primitive Northern iberian breeds, as well).
What I have found about Retuertas, is that they have been somewhat isolated in the Marismas. It were found some Marismeños that have a genetic connection with Retuertas (and were integrated as Retuerta, to avoid too much inbreeding), so we could say that these horses (Marismeños) work like a protection for the outside influences on the Retuerta. Regarding their links with local wild horses, I have observed also a mtDNA connection with iberian wild horses (not very different groups compared with Garrano and some mustangs). Possibly inbreeding helped them to present a somewhat unique genetic signature. I find them a bit derived (phenotypically) from all the wild horses examples that I have found (more than the some of the Northern Iberian breeds). Possibly, they are an ecotype response to their environment. But I don´t see them as a finished product ready for rewilding (even counting with the selection on primitive traits, of course). Probably if they are released in a different habitat(more suitable for the development of primitive traits) with different selective pressures, they´ll start to have a more «wild» phenotype... This have happened before (change from slender to stocky built, for example). PS: I still need to see what´s/are the Y-haplogroup/s of Retuertas and if there are any autosomal studies (since they are so studied genetically). Edited by firefly, Feb 6 2014, 08:04 PM.
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| bullseye | Sep 14 2013, 03:20 AM Post #42 |
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Autotrophic Organism
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Actually you can't "blame" that comment on Roberta, I typed that, all by myself, with my unique "one finger" technique. Rip |
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| Dfoidl | Sep 15 2013, 07:13 AM Post #43 |
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Herbivore
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The Exmoor alone does not give a complete picture of the European wild horses, because dun and the black gene are lacking. The Konik would bring that in, which is itself a quite primitive breed. A mix of Exmoor and Konik or Hucule would have everything (phenotypically) needed.
Which study are you referring to in particular?
Perhaps it would give them a stockier, more wild horse like body, but the wild colour is impossible to "return" this way. Retuerta have some kind of bay colour, but dun, pangare and black get into this population by dedomestication only. I wonder why not simply releasing some primitive horses that have what is needed in the same reserve? Actually, I don't see why the Retuerta is considered so precious for substituting the wild horse. It's genetics might be a little bit different from other horses of the region, but that alone does not connect them in any way with wild horses and honestly I don't think there's anything special about them. Edited by Dfoidl, Sep 15 2013, 07:15 AM.
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| firefly | Sep 15 2013, 09:28 AM Post #44 |
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Herbivore
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Exmoor is the most complete breed to start any European wild horse project, IMO. Of course that other breeds could be used to complete it. Hucul/primitive type of Sulphur mustang/Bashkir horses or other horse breed, could be options indeed to complete it. But not all European wild horses were dun (IMO) and I truly believe that some did had almost exactly the same color of some Exmoor horses, though bay dun horses were possibly the most common.
Henri sent it to me, I´ll try to find it and send to your email. But the haplogroup base is «H».
Yes, I was talking about built and possibly other traits, like defensive strategies against predators, which could be gained after some generations on a true survival test on the wild. But well, I don´t think that Retuerta can substitut any wild horse, possibly the idea is just to conserve it. Edited by firefly, Sep 15 2013, 09:34 AM.
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| Dfoidl | Sep 15 2013, 05:40 PM Post #45 |
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Herbivore
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The Konik is just as "complete", both breeds actually are only different in their colour, of which both are accurate wild colour variants, except possibly for the lack of dun in the Exmoor (see below).
I am curious why you don't mention the Konik? It would change nothing in the phenotype of the Exmoor except for adding dun and black.
The latter premise depends on the former, which is speculative because the dun factor wasn't yet tested for the European wild horse population. I think it is indeed possible that some wild horses lacked dun, although I think, just as you, that dun wild horses were the majority. Exmoors fit perfectly in a forested environment, it somehow looks like "they belong there":
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but you seem, to have an inordinate amount of time for "computer searches".
9:51 AM Jul 11