Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Carnivora. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
European Wild Horses; originally posted by Dfoidl
Topic Started: Jan 9 2012, 06:44 PM (28,363 Views)
firefly
Herbivore
[ *  *  *  * ]
Quote:
 
The Konik is just as "complete", both breeds actually are only different in their colour, of which both are accurate wild colour variants, except possibly for the lack of dun in the Exmoor (see below).


Ok, I already gave my opinion.
Btw, do you have any skull and teeth data about the Koniks?



Quote:
 
I am curious why you don't mention the Konik? It would change nothing in the phenotype of the Exmoor except for adding dun and black.


Well, it´s still a open question, since I have said «or other horse breed».



Quote:
 
I think it is indeed possible that some wild horses lacked dun, although I think, just as you, that dun wild horses were the majority. Exmoors fit perfectly in a forested environment, it somehow looks like "they belong there"


I agree.



Edited by firefly, Sep 15 2013, 10:03 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
firefly
Herbivore
[ *  *  *  * ]
I think that Spain should use Asturcón or a related breed, if they aim to start a local wild horse project, for example.
I already had talks about this, some months ago.

Retuerta may need some conservation, but for a wild horse project, they would need other one.


Edited by firefly, Sep 15 2013, 10:08 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dfoidl
Member Avatar
Herbivore
[ *  *  *  * ]
Quote:
 
Btw, do you have any skull and teeth data about the Koniks?


I have no written references, no (but not on the Exmoor either). But you may remember about the Exmoor skull that I laid over a Konik head and showed a perfect match. Honestly, I never recognized a significant difference between the heads of the Exmoor and the Konik. Also I see no evidence for the Exmoor having deeper-rooted teeth than other primitive horses.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
firefly
Herbivore
[ *  *  *  * ]
That´s possible.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
bullseye
Autotrophic Organism
[ *  * ]
@ all

Not really on topic but certainly germain to the topic, IMHO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHlqZ6VZvKE

enjoy, it's a little gory but worth the watch.  :o
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Roberta


Wiesmoor Tarpan
 
I came across another Tarpan backbreeding attempt, again from Germany. (Do the Germans have a foible for backbreeding? Heck cattle, Wörth, Taurus / Heck pony, Liebenthal, Wiesmoor, ...) This one is by a Mr. Georg-Wilhelm Gaede from Wiesmoor, who half a century ago started to breed koniks for smallness and daintiness to recreate the results of Prof. Vetulani’s attempts. All sources stress that Mr. Goede’s animals are smaller and daintier than regular koniks.

Sources (all German):
http://haseluenne-wacholderhain.de/27203.html (English translation)
http://www.uni-protokolle.de/Lexikon/Tarpan.html
http://mobil.nabu-ostfriesland.de/index.php?id=728
http://www.noz.de/lokales/6360830/die-wildpferde-sind-als-landschaftspfleger-da
http://www.beutelwolf.martin-skerhut.de/2011/08/portrait-tarpan/
http://www.kryptozoologie-online.de/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=2337

A herd of these horses were released in the nature reserve Wacholderhain in Haselünne/Lower Saxony:

Posted Image
http://haseluenne-wacholderhain.de/27203.html


Equus lambei
 
In another thread here on Carnivora Forum, firefly posted a short video on reconstructing the head of an ice age Yukon horse.

Equus lambei is said to be more closely related to the European wild horses than to the Przewalski horse. Interestingly, according to the video, its mane is said to be white, while the rest of the fur is darker. This sounds a bit like the flaxen or blond chestnut common especially in European working horses, except that Equus lambei also has wild type markings (dorsal stripe etc.) Does anyone know what the results are if you cross a flaxen horse with a dun horse? (The flaxen gene is as of yet only hypothetical and its locus unknown.)

CreekValleyCritters: “Reconstruction of the extinct ice age Yukon horse Equus lambei (head)”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH-L2x_9eLM
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dfoidl
Member Avatar
Herbivore
[ *  *  *  * ]
Quote:
 
Interestingly, according to the video, its mane is said to be white, while the rest of the fur is darker.


I think that it is likely that the mane is not preserved completely, but only some strands. The mane of dun horses is usually bicoloured, perhaps more blond strands than black were preserved in this specimen. Or, another possibility, the mane hair was bleached over the millennia.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dfoidl
Member Avatar
Herbivore
[ *  *  *  * ]
http://www.seaspiritoftheforest.co.uk/equine/colourhistory.html

This website claims that the genetic background of the leopard spotting pattern is related to the stripes in zebras:

Quote:
 
The close relationship between dun and stripe can be seen by the transverse-dorsal vestigial stripes to be found on some dun horses, which closely mimic the lateral stripes on some zebras. Also, however, the leopard complex genes (found on ECA1 in the domestic horse) seem to be related to the zebra-striping pattern. [...]
In some leopard-spot horses one can easily 'join the dots' into clear stripes, and in a few, the dots are elongated and appear very much as a 'broken stripe'; and in the re-bred Quaggas, the reduction of stripe is clearly going through a 'disintegrating-into-spot' phase (see pictures to the right).
The broken-stripe leopard foal shown here also showed dun striping and dilution, and the 'quagga' also shows dun-type dilution - so the 'stripe / dun / leopard' relationship is not going to be easy to sort out.


This sounds very interesting, I hope more on how the striping in zebras actually comes into shape will be known in the future.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Scalesofanubis
Omnivore
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Roberta
Sep 29 2013, 08:18 AM
Wiesmoor Tarpan
 
I came across another Tarpan backbreeding attempt, again from Germany. (Do the Germans have a foible for backbreeding? Heck cattle, Wörth, Taurus / Heck pony, Liebenthal, Wiesmoor, ...)

The Nazis had this whole mythology about some sort of Aryan proto-German master race thing that made them fetishize all kinds of things about prehistoric Germany. So they ended up being ALL about trying to resurrect old German wildlife.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Dfoidl
Member Avatar
Herbivore
[ *  *  *  * ]
Quote:
 
The Nazis had this whole mythology about some sort of Aryan proto-German master race thing that made them fetishize all kinds of things about prehistoric Germany. So they ended up being ALL about trying to resurrect old German wildlife.

That's complete nonsense invented by tabloids, breeding-back has no connection to nazism.
Edited by Dfoidl, Dec 8 2013, 08:46 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
bullseye
Autotrophic Organism
[ *  * ]


Interesting if you can put up with the advertising.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cg2tVKvKp1A

Interesting, to me, from the viewpoint of de-domestifcation. Even if you have never been "domesticated" you still need to be "de-domesticated" apparently.

I seem to recall Dfoidl (?) mentioning somewhere that Lida weren't as interested in supplemental feeding as other breeds when natural feed sources ran short. Because Lida have never lived in a zoo perhaps?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
firefly
Herbivore
[ *  *  *  * ]
Posted Image


Posted Image


Posted Image


Posted Image


Mustang horses


Edited by firefly, Jan 25 2014, 01:38 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Copperhead
Member Avatar
Autotrophic Organism
[ *  * ]
Primitive markings are actually very common in the horse world with developed breeds. Anything from a quarter horse to a paso fino can sport the dun gene.

I think something that has gone overlooked in the "wild color" factor is the lighter undertones seen in the przewalski's horse. Its actually very common with belgian horses BUT is still considered a "primitive marking".

Belgian draft:
Posted Image

Przewalski's horse:
Posted Image

The Fjord is also a very primitive looking animal with the upright mane, dorsal stripe and leg barring:
Posted Image

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
phil90
Autotrophic Organism
[ *  * ]
@Copperhead: Fjord do not have an upright mane!!!! Their mane is traditionally cut in that manner.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
firefly
Herbivore
[ *  *  *  * ]
Well, those mustangs that I have posted don´t have only a coat with primitive markings, they are much more than that.
Edited by firefly, Feb 2 2014, 02:36 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
ZetaBoards - Free Forum Hosting
Free Forums with no limits on posts or members.
Learn More · Sign-up Now
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Zoological Debate & Discussion · Next Topic »
Add Reply