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European Wild Horses; originally posted by Dfoidl
Topic Started: Jan 9 2012, 06:44 PM (28,361 Views)
firefly
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Quote:
 
Oh, I know. I get the feeiling that Firefly has personally researched and studied these animals on a much higher level than most, but I'm finding many claims in his posts to be logically wrong in horses as we know it. He has confused some color genetics and also believes the mane is used for protection against rain.


Yes, I have received informations about some horse breeds, from different scientific sources and I have exchanged emails with different horse breeding associations.
I´m not an horse expert but I´m willing to learn.

Great, so you please could say what were my confusions, I´m very interested in learning new things and where I´m wrong.

And well, a big falling mane (directed to both sides) can be useful in diverting rain.
I think that horses in drier areas, tend to develop smaller manes, but I´m not sure about this.




Quote:
 
But his use of sources and anecdotical claims is relatively problematic, as are his preconceptions and the baselines of the projects he is involved in that he thinks he has to follow.
Apart from that, little of what is written on domestic breeds (especially of their breeding associations and their advocates) is objective and well-grounded, and firefly rarely scrutinizes claims that support the conceptions he is in favour of, while he is over-skeptical on evidence that contradicts them and tends to argue in an improper way. That's my honest opinion.


You weren´t asked about it, but since you talk about, I have changed my mind during the years, on subjects that needed a new evaluation and approach and I´m willing to change on more things if necessary. Knowledge isn´t properly static thing.

But I would say, that speaking about others, especially about people that you don´t know nothing about, can be a bit dangerous, misleading and non productive.

I have found that many times we agree to disagree. So please, whenever you find that I can be wrong on a certain thing, just direct the subject on an educated and reasonable way and spare me (or us) from your personal points/issues about other people.





Edited by firefly, Feb 6 2014, 06:53 AM.
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firefly
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Dfoidl
Feb 5 2014, 02:21 AM
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and some of them (like the ones that I have posted) actually derive (at least partially) from a group of wild horses that were domesticated in the Iberian Peninsula.


Reference?
Dr. Cothran found H1 lineages in Sulphur mustang horses.

H1 is only found in Iberian wild horses.

I think that the same was found in Pryor mustangs (and few more breeds of Iberian origin), but I´ll have a look.

And there are breeds of Iberian origin coming from more local wild horse lineages (like the haplogroup C). I´m thinking in Paso Fino and Lusitano, for example.









Edited by firefly, Feb 6 2014, 06:32 AM.
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Dfoidl
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Dr. Cothran found H1 lineages in Sulphur mustang horses.

H1 is only found in Iberian wild horses.

I think that the same was found in Pryor mustangs (and few more breeds of Iberian origin), but I´ll have a look.

And there are breeds of Iberian origin coming from more local wild horse lineages (like the haplogroup C). I´m thinking in Paso Fino and Lusitano, for example.


"Dr. Cothran" is no sufficient reference. Please full name, full title and year of publication. Journal would be nice as well, and link would be perfect.

Haplotypes alone do not suggest local domestication, but it can indicate local introgression. And as it was suggested by various papers (I can name them, but I am sure you know them and I mentioned them various times on my blog), local introgression is not unique to Iberian horses but probably happened all over Europe.

Quote:
 
You weren´t asked about it, but since you talk about, I have changed my mind during the years, on subjects that needed a new evaluation and approach and I´m willing to change on more things if necessary. Knowledge isn´t properly static thing.

But I would say, that speaking about others, especially about people that you don´t know nothing about, can be a bit dangerous, misleading and non productive.

I have found that many times we agree to disagree. So please, whenever you find that I can be wrong on a certain thing, just direct the subject on an educated and reasonable and spare me (or us) from your personal points about other people.


There is nothing more enjoyable than plain phrases. :)
Edited by Dfoidl, Feb 6 2014, 06:52 AM.
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firefly
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"Dr. Cothran" is no sufficient reference. Please full name, full title and year of publication. Journal would be nice as well, and link would be perfect.

Haplotypes alone do not suggest local domestication, but it can indicate local introgression. And as it was suggested by various papers (I can name them, but I am sure you know them and I mentioned them various times on my blog), local introgression is not unique to Iberian horses but probably happened all over Europe.


You can ask Sulphur Mustang association about his genetic work on the breed.

http://www.sulphurhorseranch.com/DrCothranSulphurs.html


And this paper presents some pre-domestic lineages:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0015311


And I wasn´t speaking about local domestication necessarily, or introgression specifically (though introgression would mean that wild stock was included in domestic herds, intentionally or not), but about genetic relationships that were found between domestic horses and wild horses.

Yes, probably happened in more European regions, we just don´t know if many of them survived until today.

This article is interesting:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi/10.1371/journal.pone.0018194



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There is nothing more enjoyable than plain phrases.


Yep.

Edited by firefly, Feb 6 2014, 07:07 AM.
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Dfoidl
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You can ask Sulphur Mustang association about his genetic work on the breed.

No, I certainly won't. You made the claim, so you have to provide the references and not direct that work to others. And I was so kind and did that in the case of the genetics of Maronesa by trying to contact Virgilio Alvez via the address you gave me 2 months ago, and not surprisingly I received no response.

Quote:
 
And this paper presents some pre-domestic lineages:

… actually does not support your claim of local domestication at all:

We therefore agree with previous studies about the lack of evidence for an independent horse domestication process in Iberia, at least not on a significant scale, and provide instead strong evidence for introgression of local mares.


And once again you (mis)used a peer-reviewed paper improperly, like in the Maronesa case, do you think that's a professional way of working?

Quote:
 
And I wasn´t speaking about local domestication necessarily, or introgression specifically (though introgression would mean that wild stock was included in domestic herds, intentionally or not), but about genetic relationships that were found between domestic horses and wild horses.

Actually you were:
Quote:
 
and some of them (like the ones that I have posted) actually derive (at least partially) from a group of wild horses that were domesticated in the Iberian Peninsula.


Quote:
 
This article is interesting:

The most relevant sentence from the abstract is IMO this one:

Our results suggest that not only the Eastern steppes, but also the Iberian Peninsula provided refugia for wild horses in the Holocene, and that the genetic contribution of these wild populations to local domestic stock may have been considerable.

The suggestion that the Equus ferus ferus subspecies was divided into 2 genetic lineages, one western to the pyrenees and one eastern to the pyrenees, was also suggested by Cieslak et al. 2011, and what this study here suggests is that both left a track in the domestic horse. This is accordant with what I said previously and what other studies say.

Quote:
 
Yes, probably happened in more European regions, we just don´t know if many of them survived until today.

We do, because those studies that showed that numerous European predomestic mt haplotypes are still present in domestic european horses were done testing extant horses of course. Pick any European horse breed you want, and it's very likely that it has predomestic European (female) ancestors next to its predominantly eastern origins. Some maybe more than others, but there is AFAIK no study on that.

And now the atomic bomb: we probably agree basically. I think it's likely that many Iberian horse breeds experienced introgression from local wild horses, and some may even resemble these in phenotype. I was just asking you to provide references.


Edited by Dfoidl, Feb 6 2014, 08:08 AM.
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firefly
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No, I certainly won't. You made the claim, so you have to provide the references and not direct that work to others. And I was so kind and did that in the case of the genetics of Maronesa by trying to contact Virgilio Alvez via the address you gave me 2 months ago, and not surprisingly I received no response.


Well, the references are posted, there mentions the H1.

I also have sent emails to Virgilio Alves and got no answer, so I had to move and go there to talk with him personally. That would be not so easy for you, though.


Quote:
 

And once again you (mis)used a peer-reviewed paper improperly, like in the Maronesa case, do you think that's a professional way of working?


Misused in what? The known pre-domestic lineages are there. H1 is also there.

On the next year this was published:

«More recently, it has been shown that several pre-domestic Iberian maternal lineages survive in modern horses of Iberian descent [10], [11], thus documenting a genetic contribution of Iberian wild stock to local domestic horses. Here we go on to show that the genetic contribution of Iberian wild stock to local domestic horses may have been substantial: the high diversity in Iberian horses is consistent with the persistence of E. ferus in the Iberian Peninsula from the Pleistocene through the Holocene, and the subsequent extensive use of local Iberian wild horses in establishing and/or restocking local domestic populations.»

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi/10.1371/journal.pone.0018194


Quote:
 
Actually you were:
Quote:
 
and some of them (like the ones that I have posted) actually derive (at least partially) from a group of wild horses that were domesticated in the Iberian Peninsula.


Well, local wild horses were included in some iberian domestic stocks, it´s reasonable to assume that domestication, at least partially, might have happened. Wild animals were incorporated in domestic herds, it could have happened in different ways. Introgression it´s also a good hypothesis, though. It can even be the most supported until now.


Quote:
 
The suggestion that the Equus ferus ferus subspecies was divided into 2 genetic lineages, one western to the pyrenees and one eastern to the pyrenees, was also suggested by Cieslak et al. 2011, and what this study here suggests is that both left a track in the domestic horse. This is accordant with what I said previously and what other studies say.


And I mainly agree with that too.

Quote:
 

And now the atomic bomb: we probably agree basically. I think it's likely that many Iberian horse breeds experienced introgression from local wild horses, and some may even resemble these in phenotype. I was just asking you to provide references.


Ok!

Let´s hope that more things are known about this matter. Any more studies are welcome, I´ll see if one day, I spend a good time trying to find more studies.
Though I have feeling that the studies that were published until now, don´t give us a complete view about this complex subject.








Edited by firefly, Feb 6 2014, 09:02 AM.
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Copperhead
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Feb 6 2014, 06:15 AM
Yes, I have received informations about some horse breeds, from different scientific sources and I have exchanged emails with different horse breeding associations.
I´m not an horse expert but I´m willing to learn.

Great, so you please could say what were my confusions, I´m very interested in learning new things and where I´m wrong.

And well, a big falling mane (directed to both sides) can be useful in diverting rain.
I think that horses in drier areas, tend to develop smaller manes, but I´m not sure about this.

If horses in dryer areas develop smaller manes, then how would you explain the arabian? The arabian itself is a desert horse who is one of the oldest breeds in the world. It was used to help enhance the Dartmoor and is in almost every single breed of domestic horse known today. Where did you hear that manes were developed for rain deterent? Taking into account the mane's design and basic uses, it was more or less developed as a defence against predators and for fly/insect control. Not only do the roots lack nerve endings (which enables a quick and easy tear from the body without harm), horses use their tails and manes to help keep insects at bay.

You also seem to be lumping pangare with dun (as a friend pointed out to me), as well as considering a brown horse bay. A true bay does not have the light colorations you see around the nose and eye. A brown horse may appears bay (bay being a dark brown coat with black points on the ears, legs, tail/mane), however it will DNA test brown. You can always tell a true bay from a brown horse without DNA testing by viewing the animal in it's winter coat. It will have a lighter muzzle, lighter shades around the eyes, and lighter areas behind the elbow (girth area) and flank. The lighter areas of a brown horse are also not to be confused with pangere.


This horse would DNA test brown
Posted Image

As would this horse
Posted Image

Note the underbelly tones (ABOVE) which shouldn't be confused with pangere, which resembles this
Posted Image

Many horses in their winter coat will appear to have pengare but actually do not carry the pengare gene. Horse genetics and colors are all very confusing since you can get a "classic bay" in all different shades, as well as a brown who looks bay and a black who looks bay or a bay who looks black. Also we find chestnuts who appear palomino (all haflingers are genetically chestnut but appear palomino), and one of the worst cases are the darker horses who sunbleach lighter, so they appear a different color than what you will find in a DNA test. It does concern me though that the people who are writing your references seem to not understand genetic colorations.

Edited by Copperhead, Feb 6 2014, 12:41 PM.
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firefly
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Where did you hear that manes were developed for rain deterent? Taking into account the mane's design and basic uses, it was more or less developed as a defence against predators and for fly/insect control. Not only do the roots lack nerve endings (which enables a quick and easy tear from the body without harm), horses use their tails and manes to help keep insects at bay.



It was from Henri Herkdijk-Otten that I heard that and so far, I didn´t saw any dispute about that statement. He also told me that horses that have less food usually develop less mane, because that would require an extra metabolic cost.
And I didn´t said that manes were rain deterent, but a long bi-directed falling mane could be useful to divert rain from the horse.

Regarding the arabian horses, I would like to see feral horses examples from dry areas, not artificially fed horses.

Should we compare horses from humid vs dry areas? Mostly horses with hardly any human interference, would be the most interesting ones, I think.


Quote:
 
Taking into account the mane's design and basic uses, it was more or less developed as a defence against predators and for fly/insect control. Not only do the roots lack nerve endings (which enables a quick and easy tear from the body without harm), horses use their tails and manes to help keep insects at bay.


Yes, it´s likely that manes were advantageous for different purposes.



And we have been using those designations (for horse coloration) for a long time here on thread. Why pointing it out exclusively to me? You could just say we are wrong and give examples.

So you could explain as well, that´s wrong lumping pangare with dun, because this example is what we think that describes it:

Posted Image


Posted Image



Edited by firefly, Feb 6 2014, 07:54 PM.
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Dfoidl
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I also have sent emails to Virgilio Alves and got no answer, so I had to move and go there to talk with him personally. That would be not so easy for you, though.

Although this is not the aurochs thread, what were the results?

Quote:
 
Misused in what? The known pre-domestic lineages are there. H1 is also there.

On the next year this was published:

«More recently, it has been shown that several pre-domestic Iberian maternal lineages survive in modern horses of Iberian descent [10], [11], thus documenting a genetic contribution of Iberian wild stock to local domestic horses. Here we go on to show that the genetic contribution of Iberian wild stock to local domestic horses may have been substantial: the high diversity in Iberian horses is consistent with the persistence of E. ferus in the Iberian Peninsula from the Pleistocene through the Holocene, and the subsequent extensive use of local Iberian wild horses in establishing and/or restocking local domestic populations.»

This supports what I am saying all the time.

Quote:
 
Well, local wild horses were included in some iberian domestic stocks, it´s reasonable to assume that domestication, at least partially, might have happened.

Might. Until there is something that suggests local domestication, like Y haplotypes or Y chromosomes totally unknown in non-iberian-influenced horses, the working hypothesis should be that the iberian stock was influenced by local introgression by inclusion of wild mares just like virtually all over europe.
Seemingly nobody rules out local domestication, I do neither, but my problem is that when you hear a hypothesis you like you soon take it for granted and consider it a fact, like your first statement shows. I'm sorry but that's what I recognized from two and a half years of email correspondence and forum discussions.



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firefly
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Feb 6 2014, 08:18 PM



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Although this is not the aurochs thread, what were the results?


He told me that Maronesa has primitive structures on its genome. I´m sorry if I can´t give more details.
To reveal more I would need a written text from him, so each point is taken into it´s right context. I prefer to not reveal more from an author than he authorizes.

Regarding the domestic cattle and aurochs comparison (which isn´t necessarily the same point, since being primitive it doesn´t necessarily imply being exactly the same as its ancestor), I think that samples are still being gathered from different parts of Europe (and in my opinion, it should be used samples from Middle East and North Africa as well), though some results have found that Maronesa have been appearing with Y2 and T3. This could suggest a Middle Eastern origin, but the problem is that we see the same basic lineages in some South European aurochs. Catarina Ginja told me that they are now trying to differ the South European lineages from the Middle Eastern ones, so we can find something more about this. There were found also «Q» mtDNA lineages in at least 2 portuguese breeds, like Arouquesa and Alentejana, and she thinks that this very probably represents aurochs influence, though it still needs to be confirmed too. Unique (not known elsewhere) «Y» haplotypes were also found in Portuguese breeds, but again, it still need to be contrasted with pre-domestic results. And more Portuguese domestic cattle, need to be included on the study.
I don´t know if Ginja will go also for the nuclear study (I think so), but they (she and her colleagues) didn´t published nothing yet, because they are still working with it. But I know that they are studying also Iberian aurochs genomes.

Posted Image

Recently she and more authors published this book (it´s in Portuguese though).




Quote:
 
This supports what I am saying all the time.


It supports also what I said about H1 (and even about more lineages).


Quote:
 
Until there is something that suggests local domestication, like Y haplotypes or Y chromosomes totally unknown in non-iberian-influenced horses, the working hypothesis should be that the iberian stock was influenced by local introgression by inclusion of wild mares just like virtually all over europe.
Seemingly nobody rules out local domestication, I do neither, but my problem is that when you hear a hypothesis you like you soon take it for granted and consider it a fact, like your first statement shows. I'm sorry but that's what I recognized from two and a half years of email correspondence and forum discussions.



Yes, it might have happened in nearly all Europe. The survival of those lineages until nowadays and its frequency is another matter, though.
And pre-domestic Y haplotypes (depending on the frequency and where you find it), could also mean, wild horse introgression not necessarily wild horse domestication. So for this case, it´s me who thinks that probably we shouldn´t take an hypothesis as a fact.
My opinion about others who post on these threads aren´t always very positive, we may agree in disagree in many things, but I´m fine with the differences (and honestly I don´t spend a great time writing about it) and I have had recognized to be wrong on some subjects on the past (that´s the way that knowledge should evolve, so now it won´t be any different).

Edited by firefly, Feb 6 2014, 09:41 PM.
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Dfoidl
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He told me that Maronesa has primitive structures on its genome. I´m sorry if I can´t give more details.
To reveal more I would need a written text from him, so each point is taken into it´s right context. I prefer to not reveal more from an author than he authorizes.

So the source for us to rely on until something is published (genetics require a peer reviewed paper in a scientific journal and not just some written text), is you (no offense).

Quote:
 
Recently she and more authors published this book (it´s in Portuguese though).

No offense again, but I'll never understand why authors that know their work is of international interest don't write their works in the globally accepted lingua franca, English. Even I do that on my blog. It's only bad for their own work, because only a very limited group of people can use it usefully.



Quote:
 
The survival of those lineages until nowadays and its frequency is another matter, though.

No, it is not, because - as I mentioned previously - these haplotypes were found in living horse breeds. 84 haplotypes, to be exact (Cieslak 2010, or was it 2011?).

Quote:
 

And pre-domestic Y haplotypes (depending on the frequency and where you find it), could also mean, wild horse introgression not necessarily wild horse domestication. So for this case, it´s me who thinks that probably we shouldn´t take an hypothesis as a fact.


Please don't twist my words. I take nothing as a fact. Of course Y chromosome diversity not found in other horse populations (they dont necessarily have to be recognized as predomestic) does not necessarily indicate independent horse domestication; but to conclusively indicate independent horse domestication it should be present, otherwise we can't say if local domestication (with replacement of the genetic material from the locally domesticated stallions by near-eastern descending stallions later on) or introgression is the case. Please read more carefully, that would make this discussion less distressing.
Edited by Dfoidl, Feb 6 2014, 10:26 PM.
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firefly
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So the source for us to rely on until something is published (genetics require a peer reviewed paper in a scientific journal and not just some written text), is you (no offense).


No, it´s not me and the genetic research about Maronesa primitivity wasn´t published AFAIK.
There was some genetic work done on the breed but its interpretation requires a good knowledge about cattle genetics and not everything is visible to everyone in the world to see it.
So I´m not saying that this is proof of something, though I know people that have researched it and I have indicated its contacts. Even phone number is available on Maronesa association (actually 2 different numbers) and adress.

Like I said, the aurochs and the domestic cattle are still under study. Ginja is studying also the iberian aurochs.

Quote:
 

No offense again, but I'll never understand why authors that know their work is of international interest don't write their works in the globally accepted lingua franca, English. Even I do that on my blog. It's only bad for their own work, because only a very limited group of people can use it usefully.


I agree, but she´s working on publishing a scientic paper in English.


Quote:
 
No, it is not, because - as I mentioned previously - these haplotypes were found in living horse breeds. 84 haplotypes, to be exact (Cieslak 2010, or was it 2011?).


Yes, some lineages exist, but I wasn´t thinking on that (since I already know it) so probably it should be better to locate where it are found and its frequency.



Quote:
 
but to conclusively indicate independent horse domestication it should be present


Yes, it should.
Though, the presence of certain base haplotypes and haplogroups, indicates wild horse introgression or domestication, nuclear DNA study is also essential as well.




Edited by firefly, Feb 6 2014, 11:09 PM.
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Dfoidl
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No, it´s not me and the genetic research about Maronesa primitivity wasn´t published AFAIK.

As I asked you previously, please read more carefully:

Quote:
 
So the source for us * to rely on


*Here in the forum, of course.

Quote:
 
Though, the presence of certain base haplotypes and haplogroups, indicates wild horse introgression or domestication, nuclear DNA study is also essential as well.

Yes, but I think the chances are not good for us to see something like that, because mt or Y studies are way cheaper and easier AFAIK. I can't recall seeing any phylogenetic studies (regardless of which vertebrate group) based on nuclear DNA, or perhaps my memories are imperfect.
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firefly
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Here in the forum, of course.


Here on the forum, the ideal thing to do (IMO) is to follow my suggestions (that I have presented already). This includes also waiting for the publication of new scientific articles.
Plus, Catarina Ginja is interested in getting samples from the primitive Maronesa subtype (I had a talk with her, and she has interest in cooperating with Uruz on that) and from more local breeds, such as Barrosa, Mirandesa, etc...

But the results based on random Maronesa (and others), will be the first to be published.
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Dfoidl
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Here on the forum, the ideal thing to do (IMO) is to follow my suggestions (that I have presented already).This includes also waiting for the publication of new scientific articles.

You are so distressing. Of course we, or at least I, do not write about any speculations about a paper that isn't even published yet. I wouldn't even reveal it if someone told me. "Publish or perish" is the scientific credo.
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