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European Wild Horses; originally posted by Dfoidl
Topic Started: Jan 9 2012, 06:44 PM (28,360 Views)
firefly
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Quote:
 

Of course we, or at least I, do not write about any speculations about a paper that isn't even published yet. I wouldn't even reveal it if someone told me. "Publish or perish" is the scientific credo.


Quoting what matters.
I didn´t speculated anything regarding the results of a paper that wasn´t published yet.
I only did wrote about what is known and was communicated to me by the authors. And their contact details are plublic to everyone.

Do you know what´s a personal communication?
Didn´t you ever used it on your writings?

And I´m not saying, that this subject is closed for me, of course that more data is always welcome and hopefully new things will surface soon.




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firefly
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bullseye
Dec 20 2013, 09:59 AM
I have seen this video, some weeks ago.

Really nice documentary, thanks for the share.
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Copperhead
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firefly
Feb 6 2014, 07:52 PM

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Where did you hear that manes were developed for rain deterent? Taking into account the mane's design and basic uses, it was more or less developed as a defence against predators and for fly/insect control. Not only do the roots lack nerve endings (which enables a quick and easy tear from the body without harm), horses use their tails and manes to help keep insects at bay.



It was from Henri Herkdijk-Otten that I heard that and so far, I didn´t saw any dispute about that statement. He also told me that horses that have less food usually develop less mane, because that would require an extra metabolic cost.
And I didn´t said that manes were rain deterent, but a long bi-directed falling mane could be useful to divert rain from the horse.

Regarding the arabian horses, I would like to see feral horses examples from dry areas, not artificially fed horses.

Should we compare horses from humid vs dry areas? Mostly horses with hardly any human interference, would be the most interesting ones, I think.


Quote:
 
Taking into account the mane's design and basic uses, it was more or less developed as a defence against predators and for fly/insect control. Not only do the roots lack nerve endings (which enables a quick and easy tear from the body without harm), horses use their tails and manes to help keep insects at bay.


Yes, it´s likely that manes were advantageous for different purposes.



And we have been using those designations (for horse coloration) for a long time here on thread. Why pointing it out exclusively to me? You could just say we are wrong and give examples.

So you could explain as well, that´s wrong lumping pangare with dun, because this example is what we think that describes it:

Posted Image


Posted Image



Unfortuntely, unless we come up with a truly wild equine in a less dry area to compare to the Prez horse, we won't be able to test that hypothosis. The dartmoor is old, not pure and has arabian in it. As far as we know, no existing horse breeds today were used to create the arabian, which is why I used it as an example. It is the purest horse in existance, even outranking the Prez horse because of out-breeding which occured while they attempted to save the breed. The horse itself came from an extremely dry area, and yet it has always been historically described as having a full mane and tail. The general appearance of the arabian has changed very little, even with the conformation styles. The body is still very adapted for the desert. Could the long mane have been the end result of human breeding programs? Or did the horse itself originate with a long mane and tale? We may never know. However, I do think its very interesting that the arabian horse itself lacks a rib and vertebrae that other horses have.

I'm guessing one of the closest things to a wild horse in dry environment would be the southwest mustang.

A mustang, born and wild in the desert Nevada area and uninfluenced by human breeding programs
Posted Image
(I watch this photographer and know this mustang's personal story - his tail is not short due to genetics, it was lost when he was younger)

If this horse thought a mane and tail would be useless in a dry environment, the breed would have dropped it in the time period of 400 years where human influence was lacking.


This is an ancient rock carving of a "proto-arabian", which is where we believe the arabian to have come from. As you can see in the art, the horse itself has many arabian qualitys. No mane can be found but the horse itself is portrayed with a very long tail.
Posted Image

I have noticed through many years of horse husbandry that the neck underneath the mane becomes just as wet as the unprotected part. A few cases I have seen in draft horses who's mane is so heavy it threatens the crest that a small portion of the neck remains dry. I'd consider this a human bred quality as such a heavy mane would hurt, not help in a wild, wet setting and these draft horses are so far removed from their ancestor's, they almost better resemble a rhino than any horse. I'm not sold on the rain idea, in any case.

Posted Image

What is it about the areas of the mane and tail which need protection from rain? If so, why wouldn't the entire line of the spine be maned as well? The idea which puts the mane and tail at a defense against preditors holds more water, since preditors will reach for the neck area (and the rear) to snag fleeing prey. Perhaps the shorter mane was more adapted to cold environments, where energy was better put towards keeping the horse warm than anything else. Anyways, its food for thought.

I understand why you've lumped dun with pengare, as I've apparently mistakenly done so in the past as well. My friend, who is an equine genetisist and is continuing the study in her current field, feels this is an incorrect assumption. So you and and I apparently wrong. I will try and find the answer to why that is when I next speak to her. Perhaps it has to do with the "look vs DNA testing" (horse looks bay, DNA tests brown) that I went over an an above post.

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Dfoidl
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Did anyone realize that equines that have a dorsal stripe also tend to have a ventral stripe?

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Copperhead
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Update: I was correct when I said the pengare and dun gene are two separate genes. I spoke with my friend and she has extensive knowledge in this field.

As for the mane debate, I'm with Dfoidl. The topic is getting nowhere and so I've just decided to drop it.

My friend gave me a link to an 1880's translated french book which refers to the Tarpan. It is featured in chapture 6 (ANIMAL LIFE IN THE STEPPES:—THE WILD HORSE AND THE CAMEL)

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/43396/43396-h/43396-h.htm#CHAPTER_VI-a
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Copperhead
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Interesting find! My friend and I are discussing this thread and she brought to my attention this taxidermy specimen of a tarpan. Probably a bit faded due to age. I will update this post with more interesting things if and when we find them :)

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Dfoidl
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Quote:
 
Interesting find! My friend and I are discussing this thread and she brought to my attention this taxidermy specimen of a tarpan. Probably a bit faded due to age. I will update this post with more interesting things if and when we find them :)

Whaaaaat?? Never heard of that, I think this would be completely new to the world. My questions are: Where is it from? What is the source that identifies as a Tarpan? And where is the specimen now, regardless of it is a tarpan or not? When was that animal preserved? Where is the website you found that photo?
Curiously that thing l looks similar to how imagine a Tarpan of the steppes to look like.
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Copperhead
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This specimen has little information other than entering a high quality auction in england where a large diplodocus was actually auctioned off (for the first time) and a few other high end earth relics. I can't find any other resources on it other than it was in the Nov 2013 auction. I'd like to know all the answers to your questions too!

http://www.thevintagemagazine.com/house-gardens/summers-place-auctions-first-large-dinosaur-skeleton-to-be-sold-at-auction-in-the-uk/

Apparently there could be a second preserved tarpan out there but we've yet to see or find any pictures of it in a general search.

This particular tarpan looks like a buttermilk buckskin, or of similar genetic color. However, if its as old as we think, there would have been a lot of fading on the pelt. I always want to see old taxidermist specimens remounted, but if this thing is that old then the pelt would just crumble.
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phil90
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It looks like a bad preserved Przewalski...Obviously I really hope that is much more than that!!!
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Copperhead
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phil90
Feb 9 2014, 02:16 AM
It looks like a bad preserved Przewalski...Obviously I really hope that is much more than that!!!
Yes it does! lol

I can't figure out whether the faint striping on the back was a natural coat pattern faded with time or whether it was lighting or introduced artificially through the years somehow.
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Dfoidl
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That would be the most sensible explanation, especially because the Przewalski was also called "mongolian Tarpan" for some time. The proportions of this skin are a bit different though, perhaps they used a domestic horse skeleton as a base.
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bullseye
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Interesting mounted whatever, anyone on this list in the area of the sale who could check it out? I'd be most interested in knowing the height, winter or summer coat and how much sign, if any, that the pelt was made to fit the base rather than the other way around. Is the base in fact a real skeleton? I seem to recall somewhere that they moulted in a "whiter" color during the winter, I also doubt the skin could be stretched that much in the leg without obvious damage.

The ultimate, if DNA tested, would be if it were found to be male with a none domestic Y chromosome.

The etching in Chapter six looks, IMHO, more like an Irish Wolfhound than than any equine. The love of Asses expressed by the writer has to make you wonder if he ever saw either. There certainly is a strain of Eurocentric bias and describing things as either superior or inferior from his "enlightened" point of view.

If the mane varied between types, regardless of the reason, I can't believe the extreme length is anything but an artifact of human selection. Man tends to select existing traits to extremes rather than create new traits de nova.

Neither this specimen or the other two existing and unrelated examples match the body type of the "Celtic pony" type. One has to wonder if there were not two ecotypes/subspecies or even species running around at one time. The lack of fossils could be just that, a lack of fossil material. The problem has always been that fossils only occur when conditions are "right". If you don't live in conditions conducive to fossilization you are less apt to leave fossils.

Another stumbling block is the question of when some trait is derived and when it is within the normal range of the wild population. In the early stages of domestication what traits, other than disposition would be really required as opposed selected for increased utility? Color is a whole different story, humans have always apparently been attracted to and placed perceived value on oddities.

This whole "recreating" scheme depends on what is "wild". I think, as I have said before, as far as I'm concerned, " if it walks like duck, sounds like a duck and acts like a duck, it is a duck."
Edited by bullseye, Feb 9 2014, 07:09 AM.
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NewLeaf
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http://animatronicanimalsco.ipage.com/presta/gb/taxidermy/2-taxidermy-for-sale.html
Posted Image
Another picture of the same animal (the website has a larger version)
He has a forelock, which the Tahki/Przewalski does not. His points appear to be red rather than black, which may be due to fading, but certainly he does not have the solid black stockings of the Tahki (which may be, but do not appear to be, due to multiple bottlenecks). He does appear to have dun facial masking, as well as barring extending rather far back, which is not entirely typical of either the Tahki or common modern dun variation, though that may be damage or uneven fading. His general conformation, including the shallow hip and upright shoulder, are very like the period tarpan illustrations. His skull, however, appears very different. Whether that is due to being a different subspecies, due to the artists drawing something different, due to the taxidermy, or due to him simply not being a 'true' tarpan would be very useful to find out. His neck also appears exceptionally long, even taking the camera angle in to account, which seems very strange.
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Dfoidl
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Oh, it's for sale, that's the proof that it is no Tarpan. A true Tarpan taxidermy would never be in privat hand after 100 years, and not be traded like some ordinary horse specimen. That's most certainly a gag for selling, like some Heck cattle coats are avaiable as "true aurochs coat" (seriously). That's cheating but not uncommon. It most certainly a bay dun domestic horse, perhaps a fjord. Or a mongolian horse, or even one of the Przewalski x Konik crosses (what would explain its head shape). That seems to be the reason why the zoologic world is unaware of that specimen.
But thank you very much for sharing!
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Copperhead
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I think its very hard to base conformation off of old taxidermy specimens like this. Most taxidermists back in the day had to make their own mounts while today, foam mounts are provided for them in the shape of a specific animal (and even then, it takes an expert to make the animal appear alive again). The older the mount, the more shoddy the work on it is. This specimen just couldn't, conformation-wise, be even a shadow of its former self.

Pelts can be stretched and manipulated, taken away from or even added onto in order to fit a mount. Theres at least something to be said if the taxidermist kept the skull inside the head of this horse though. Not much, but something. You can give a horse an upright shoulder and a swayback or you could give the same one an angled shoulder and a steep hip.

I wonder if it sold at the auction back in November and is just being resold again, or if it didn't sell and is now up for an online auction. Either way, this specimen has the museum's name on it's back so they must have some sort of legitimate reasoning for calling it a Tarpan with at least some tracable history behind it.

I guess it depends on what that museum defines as "tarpan". If they define the tarpan as simply a domestic horse set free to roam, then this very well could be one of them. If the tarpan was actually an undomestic species of extinct horse, I'd want to see DNA testing on the pelt, a certificate of authenticity, a place of origin, the whole shebang.

It seems that whats up for bid is simply an old horse pelt without any of these tests or authenticy/background certs. You could sell a mounted Prez horse but without the proper paper work, it'd just be a mounted horse and nothing else.

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