Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Carnivora. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Super strong men, are we underestimating humans?
Topic Started: Jan 12 2012, 02:56 AM (5,320 Views)
DinosaurMichael
Member Avatar
Apex Predator
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Last week I watched a Nat Geo TV feature show about super strong men. It was really impressive.

Anybody interested can see it in youtube (it is divided in five parts):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH5C3im5ygM&feature=fvw

The program features men lifting stones weighing more than 200 kg, or breaking with their arms a 3 feet high stack of concrete slabs, or hitting and bending a metal object, or playing a hammer by nailing a nail on a metal with bare hands.

The men had obviously an impressive physique, but they were not 7 feet 300 lbs giants. They were all around 6 feet high and around 200 lbs. Some of them were smaller and not too young (in their 50's).

Perhaps the most impressive case was a man who could curl iron frying pans as if they were newspapers. This man was exerting a force of about 400 Newtons (or perhaps more) with his bare hands. This can have implications in facing a predator or a chimp. If instead of a metal frying pan this man had his hands on the neck of a (say) large dog or wolf or leopard or chimp, he could have managed to choke them or break their necks.

All these feats were measured by dynamo-meters and physiologists gave explanations. The exerted forces were huge (up to 900 Newtons). The key to be able to perform these feats is not only sheer force, but training and perseverance. It is a matter of specialization on a specific action, and this can take years. A top olympic weightlifter could lift more weight, and even if as strong or stronger than these men, would not have the technique and would not be able to do what they do: curl frying pans or brake concrete slabs (or even lift rocks).

After watching this show I am now convinced that some selected humans could be strong enough and could acquire the proper training to be able to fend off or even kill mid sized predators (dogs, wolves, pumas, leopards hyenas) or primates like chimps or even orangutans.

After watching this show I am sure that the opinion (often voiced here) that a 50 kg chimp would easily obliterate every human is completely mistaken. A man able to brake 1 meter of concrete slabs can easily brake the legs of a chimp. A man able to curl an iron frying pan, can also choke a chimp weighing almost half of him.

Before dismissing what I say, please watch the youtube videos.

Started by Gato Gordo
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ShadowPredator
Omnivore
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Yes people under rate themselves in fights, it's kinda odd if you ask me especially after watching that vid
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
populator135
Member Avatar
Heterotrophic Organism
[ *  *  * ]
The real problem humans have is not their lack of power, but their innability to kill. We have no weapons. The only way we can kill is through blunt force trauma but we do not possess such power.
Edited by populator135, Jan 28 2012, 05:18 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Scar
Member Avatar
Autotrophic Organism
[ *  * ]
populator135
Jan 13 2012, 03:34 AM
The real problem humans have is not their lack of power, but their innability to kill. We have to weapons. The only way we can kill is through blunt force trauma but we do not possess such power.
This I think depends on just what they're fighting. I think a well trained and physically impressive being is more then a match for any animal that it is able to control and manipulate in a fight. For example, I think that an unarmed human has the potential to be more then a match for an animal which only has one way to seriously injure us, such as a canine. If a human being is strong enough, they could theoretically kill a canine rather easily by snapping it's neck, while using submission grappling to restrain the animal's skull.

But yeah, the real problem is not a human beings physical strength, it is his or her lack of natural weapons. Give a physically fit, average sized man a combat knife and a few months of proper instruction and I'm pretty sure that more then half the time he'd be able to kill anything in his weight range in a head on fight, albeit with any number of injuries. Other then that it's like you said, we're pretty poorly armed to handle your typical predator without a weapon.
Edited by Scar, Jan 28 2012, 12:57 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Bright Nights
Member Avatar
Heterotrophic Organism
[ *  *  * ]
I think people tend to underrate the abilities of humans, even if blunt force is the best weapon we have. I cringe whenever someone supports a chimp or medium-sized felid over some of the strongest, most precisely skilled athletes. Now I wouldn't bet on the average human male against a 90 lb chimp, which can be stronger than the man, but when we talk about a 200+ lb athlete with deadly accurate hands and feet, the conversation just isn't the same anymore. People also often steer clear of the grappling aspect of fighting, ground fighting and the like, because most humans seem to be outclassed on the ground already. Yet it seems some animals, especially other primates, are just as vulnerable (if not more) to hooks, choke holds, and leg locks than we want to believe. How sure are we that a smaller chimp would throw a world-class MMA fighter off of him before he can apply a lightning-quick takedown and lock, for instance? I mean he could break the chimp's arm/leg once applied. Fighter can get severely injured? Sure, but so can the 99 lb chimp. I wouldn't count it out.

Most people tend to think a human opponent will be intimidated by wild, berserk, thrashing animals. That misunderstands/ignores the effectiveness of mental clarity in our actions. An adrenaline rush sometimes makes me falter, but you can't compare that to the mental ability of the greatest athletes and fighters.
Edited by Bright Nights, Jan 28 2012, 06:11 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
populator135
Member Avatar
Heterotrophic Organism
[ *  *  * ]
A human cannot perform a takedown on an animal that is sooo low to the ground. Hooks and uppercuts work very nicely on human skulls, but animal skulls, even those of other primates, are denser than ours, and require a lot more force for a concusion to be caused (which leads to a knockout).
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Bright Nights
Member Avatar
Heterotrophic Organism
[ *  *  * ]
populator135
Jan 28 2012, 02:40 PM
A human cannot perform a takedown on an animal that is sooo low to the ground. Hooks and uppercuts work very nicely on human skulls, but animal skulls, even those of other primates, are denser than ours, and require a lot more force for a concusion to be caused (which leads to a knockout).
If the animal isn't solidly standing, it's not as hard as it sounds. If we have a semi-crouched/hunched "default" position, like that of chimps and other primates, a powerful fighter can apply the same principles as he would against a human--try to get at the neck directly (rear choke, body lock).

Now, any complementing blows will be nullified somewhat by denser animal skulls, that's certainly true. But I figure the most powerful human fighters would be able to generate more than enough force for a human knockout, probably into the range of knocking out animals with thicker skulls. No other animals beside humans can deliver such precision blows by modifying an otherwise relatively weak appendage (fist). Of course it's fairly easy to break a bone when punching, so a hypothetical human opponent would need gloves.

We certainly require a lot of strength training and know-how to defeat most animals half our size, but I don't think it's necessary to exacerbate the pessimism.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
populator135
Member Avatar
Heterotrophic Organism
[ *  *  * ]
Martial arts were ment to work on human antomy. Animal anatomy is a bit different. An animal that is naturally in a crouched position, would be a lot more capable in fighting in that position than a human. About the stricking, I agree that without some sort of padding, our hand bones would be fractured.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
GreenDragon
Member Avatar
Autotrophic Organism
[ *  * ]
While the ability for men to break concrete blocks and generate great force with their fists (up to 5,000 newtons I believe) is very impressive, most of those feats would not be able to be applied when fighting against an animal.

It often takes an immense amout of physical and mental concentration to deliver such amazing force, and it would rarely, if ever, be able to be achieved when fighting against a rabid animal.
The great forces were also in tests against dummies or flat objects. Against an animal those numbers would greatly diminish, both because animals are living, moving objectss generating resistance, and also because animals are asymmetrical (force is greatest on a flat surface).

The fact that a strong man can put another man in the hospital or even kill them with a well placed blow has more to do with the unique anatomy (and fragility) of the human body, rather then the immense strength of the blow. Our bones and muscles have atrophied greatly when we began using our intelligence to rise above nature. Even though a conditioned human can improve his overall strength, there is an anatomical limit as to how much.
Edited by GreenDragon, Jan 30 2012, 11:24 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
TheWho
Autotrophic Organism
[ *  * ]
also.. its not just massive blunt force trauma causing KOs that you need to worry about...

but also fracturing and breakage of the fragile facial bones from a heavily calcified fist traveling at four times the speed of a striking snake impacting them with tremendous brutal force.. remember, this is a street fight.. there are no boxing gloves, it's bare knuckle. and no, for a professional fighter that applies Wolff's law in his training, the fist isn't a weak structure..

just look at Buakaw cutting down a banana tree with his shins.



Edited by TheWho, Jan 30 2012, 11:39 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
TheWho
Autotrophic Organism
[ *  * ]
GreenDragon
Jan 30 2012, 11:23 AM
While the ability for men to break concrete blocks and generate great force with their fists (up to 5,000 newtons I believe) is very impressive, most of those feats would not be able to be applied when fighting against an animal.

It often takes an immense amout of physical and mental concentration to deliver such amazing force, and it would rarely, if ever, be able to be achieved when fighting against a rabid animal.

false.. i can assure you that Tyson can deliver 20 hooks in less than a second all with relatively similar power levels behind them..

have you ever thrown a punch in your life?

for an experienced pugilist, throwing a powerful left hook is really nothing, lol..
Edited by TheWho, Jan 30 2012, 11:41 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
GreenDragon
Member Avatar
Autotrophic Organism
[ *  * ]
TheWho
Jan 30 2012, 11:40 AM
GreenDragon
Jan 30 2012, 11:23 AM
While the ability for men to break concrete blocks and generate great force with their fists (up to 5,000 newtons I believe) is very impressive, most of those feats would not be able to be applied when fighting against an animal.

It often takes an immense amout of physical and mental concentration to deliver such amazing force, and it would rarely, if ever, be able to be achieved when fighting against a rabid animal.

false.. i can assure you that Tyson can deliver 20 hooks in less than a second all with relatively similar power levels behind them..

have you ever thrown a punch in your life?

for an experienced pugilist, throwing a powerful left hook is really nothing, lol..


I think your missing my point

All I was saying is that by focusing/concentrating, martial artists of even average size are capable of delivering precise strikes which are far stronger then that of an untrained man of average size (or even large size).

I'm certain that many of these experiments which showed the capabilities of some of these fighters, like delivering blows of such force that they may very well be able to shatter a wolfs skull, where done in optimum conditions which allowed the man to focus and deliver a perfect strike. The human wasn't frightened or being attacked by a vicious animal, and was thus able to use his training skill to the fullest.

In a fight with an deadly animal such as a leopard or a chimp, a human who lacks exceptional fortitude would likely be intimidated and flustered, and delivering one of those incredible blows would be much tougher, along with other factors, like the opponents resistance, body shape, ect.

Psychological aspects are a big part of combat, and having a bad mindset could certainly affect technique and, by extension, overall strength.
Edited by GreenDragon, Jan 30 2012, 03:09 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Bright Nights
Member Avatar
Heterotrophic Organism
[ *  *  * ]
TheWho! I'm glad you're back sticking up for the humans again.

GreenDragon is right though. It would be difficult to apply the same amount of force in a tense standoff as in a controlled environment. Even if the person was totally collected, the moving animals would be difficult targets to hit. Hell, even human versus human combat reveals the impracticality of concentrated blows and brick-breaking set ups.

The morphological differences could perhaps be another obstacle, although this is precisely why I think apes/monkeys may be easier opponents than many other wild animals.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Vita
Member Avatar
Cave Canem
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
What about kicking? Could a 200lb human muster up enough force to fracture a chimp's jaw?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
DarkGricer
Member Avatar
Omnivore
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
No. We don't underestimate ourselves. Most animals the size of a real body builder are stronger than one, and they don't even need to train! Animals are naturaly muscled. Humans need to train, use drugs, ect, ect, ect.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Zoological Debate & Discussion · Next Topic »
Add Reply