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Super strong men, are we underestimating humans?
Topic Started: Jan 12 2012, 02:56 AM (5,321 Views)
TheWho
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Bright Nights
Feb 1 2012, 03:41 PM
TheWho! I'm glad you're back sticking up for the humans again.

GreenDragon is right though. It would be difficult to apply the same amount of force in a tense standoff as in a controlled environment. Even if the person was totally collected, the moving animals would be difficult targets to hit. Hell, even human versus human combat reveals the impracticality of concentrated blows and brick-breaking set ups.

The morphological differences could perhaps be another obstacle, although this is precisely why I think apes/monkeys may be easier opponents than many other wild animals.

first of all the boxers probably perform their best in a real fight and not in the gym.. that is what they train for.. which probably means they throw the most powerful strikes in a street fight or in a ring.. so what are you talking about? lol. you must not know how invigorating it is to feel yourself in danger? i only break personaly records when i find myself in danger, friend..

about moving targets.. the animal come toward us to attack.. which puts them in perfect striking range.

this ain't a dance..

listen, when you talk about human v human combat.. then you're talking about the possibility of dodging, parrying and blocking punches with the guard and shoulder rolling etc etc.

but NEWSFLASH.. the chimp is no Ali.. are you joking or are you serious?

the reason why KOs aren't amazingly common in human combat is because humans are very proficient at dodging, parrying and blocking punches.

we also have amazing reaction times with which to react to fast strikes. in fact, i highly doubt even the best chimp would have anywhere near the same reaction time as even an average professional boxer who engages in sparring and practices with the speed ball regularly.



Edited by TheWho, Feb 2 2012, 10:56 AM.
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TheWho
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GreenDragon
Jan 30 2012, 12:03 PM

I think your missing my point

All I was saying is that by focusing/concentrating, martial artists of even average size are capable of delivering precise strikes which are far stronger then that of an untrained man of average size (or even large size).

focusing and concentrating? lol you mean twisting the hips and body into a punch.. which is the first thing they teach you in boxing to generate massive power and takes minimal effort.

what is so hard about basic punching mechanics..? this is not dbz where you have to power up for 10 minutes to deliver one punch, my friend.

as i said, i am not even a professional fighter.. i have trained boxing for only 4 years yet i can deliver nearly 20 powerful left hooks in much less than a second.

a professional boxer/fighter would be able to throw massive punches with little effort. look at any highlight reels of any decent power puncher..

GreenDragon
Jan 30 2012, 12:03 PM
I'm certain that many of these experiments which showed the capabilities of some of these fighters, like delivering blows of such force that they may very well be able to shatter a wolfs skull, where done in optimum conditions which allowed the man to focus and deliver a perfect strike. The human wasn't frightened or being attacked by a vicious animal, and was thus able to use his training skill to the fullest.

again.. throwing a fast, powerful punch for a real fighter can be done in one fifth of a second and with minimal effort mental/physical..

you know they measured the MERE jab of Chad Dawson on Sports Science and it was five times faster than the strike of a rattle snake.. and jabs are really nothing lol.. i myself could probably throw several dozens of jabs in under 5 seconds. then there was that other test of the wushu guy striking at four times the speed of the average snake strike.

it is just a matter of shifting the body. this is a very easy thing to do for a fighter who have a very heavily muscled body, especially around the hip and core area which is crucial to turning the body into a punch.

GreenDragon
Jan 30 2012, 12:03 PM
In a fight with an deadly animal such as a leopard or a chimp, a human who lacks exceptional fortitude would likely be intimidated and flustered, and delivering one of those incredible blows would be much tougher, along with other factors, like the opponents resistance, body shape, ect.

Psychological aspects are a big part of combat, and having a bad mindset could certainly affect technique and, by extension, overall strength.

your posts tell me that a) you don't know any real fighters yourself. b) you yourself are not a real fighter or athlete.

i think you should hang out with some real fighters sometime and then maybe you'll know a little something about fortitude and combat ferocity.

join a mma gym or something, lol.

you have to be shitting me if Tyson is going to panic against a alpha chimp.. what disrespect.





Edited by TheWho, Feb 2 2012, 09:30 AM.
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TheWho
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Vita
Feb 1 2012, 05:31 PM
What about kicking? Could a 200lb human muster up enough force to fracture a chimp's jaw?

absolutely.. a well placed shin kick from someone like Daniel Ghita would probably break a chimp's face.

i guess they did some measurements on Sports Science with some pretty good fighters.. those were some brutal amount of forces generated.

and no, you don't need to power up for a minute before you throw a powerful kick.. a powerful kick can be thrown in less than a second and with minimal effort. watch any Muay Thai or kickboxing fight.

Edited by TheWho, Feb 2 2012, 09:29 AM.
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Ursus arctos
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TheWho
Feb 2 2012, 09:24 AM
i have trained boxing for only 4 years yet i can deliver nearly 20 powerful left hooks in much less than a second.


*2?
Edited by Ursus arctos, Feb 2 2012, 09:34 AM.
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TheWho
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Ursus arctos
Feb 2 2012, 09:32 AM
TheWho
Feb 2 2012, 09:24 AM
i have trained boxing for only 4 years yet i can deliver nearly 20 powerful left hooks in much less than a second.
20 left hooks in how long?

lol wait.. did i just type that.. not a less than a second, that's impossible.

more like much less than a minute.. probably like 10-15 seconds by my estimation.

EDIT:
just threw a couple.. i underestimate myself. i can probably get off 20 decent left hooks in slightly less than 10 seconds. don't really know for sure if i don't record it, though.
Edited by TheWho, Feb 2 2012, 09:42 AM.
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populator135
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TheWho, human fighting is a lot different than animal fighting. Tyson may be a tough guy, but being intimidated by an animal is not cowardly. When an animal looks at you, you don't know what it's thinking. In a fight with a human, you can pretty much tell. You keep mentioning proper punching and kicking. It's impossible to perform a proper punch to an animal that's less than a meter tall. Martial arts are based on human morphology and physiology. They do not work as effectively against an animal; especially a quadruped. You also seem to underestimate the power animals possess.. As well as the weaponry. Claws and jaws pretty much eliminate anything we bring to the game.
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TheWho
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populator135
Feb 2 2012, 10:05 AM
TheWhoYou keep mentioning proper punching and kicking. It's impossible to perform a proper punch to an animal that's less than a meter tall. Martial arts are based on human morphology and physiology. They do not work as effectively against an animal; especially a quadruped. You also seem to underestimate the power animals possess.. As well as the weaponry. Claws and jaws pretty much eliminate anything we bring to the game.

and obviously you know nothing about proper punching.

it can be broken down into two things:

a) proper base (whether it's on two feet, two knees, one feet and two knees crouching -- it doesn't matter as long as you have a solid base) from which to turn the body

b) the ability to shift and turn the hips to throw the whole body into the punch

this is the basic punching mechanics.. if you have this, you're all set to throw fairly powerful strikes.

a professional fighter can pretty much crouch down and throw powerful strikes with relatively ease since they have a base and the ability to turn intact.. or strike while on both knees.. or strike crouching on one knee and foot. or even strike while laying down (solid base although hip rotation is somewhat limited).

trust me.. i'm not even a professional and i can easily throw strikes from these positions.. humans are amazingly flexible (probably as flexible as cats? lol maybe).

populator135
Feb 2 2012, 10:05 AM
TheWho, human fighting is a lot different than animal fighting. Tyson may be a tough guy, but being intimidated by an animal is not cowardly. When an animal looks at you, you don't know what it's thinking. In a fight with a human, you can pretty much tell.

lol, animals are so simple you don't even need to read them. if they attack, they attack. bring it. Tyson will fight for his life like he did in the ring with killers.

regardless, human beings, even young little girls, rarely ever panic under extreme duress.. we have already gone through this in the older forum and posted many accounts.

you guys just need to witness these warriors go to work.. you got to talk to them and be around them then you'll grasp just how much of an indomitable will and confidence these guys have. they could probably talk themselves into thinking they could take on a 1000lb spanish fighting bull..

they exercise the kill or be killed mentality with regularity.. every time they step in the cage/ring there's a chance they never come back the same.. and if they lose, they forfeit their livelihood. if you think their going to panic because of a wild animal on the loose in the zoo then your insane.

populator135
Feb 2 2012, 10:05 AM
Martial arts are based on human morphology and physiology. They do not work as effectively against an animal; especially a quadruped. You also seem to underestimate the power animals possess.. As well as the weaponry. Claws and jaws pretty much eliminate anything we bring to the game.

i don't think their gonna take massive blunt trauma inflicted on the on fragile facial bones packed with highly sensitive nerve endings very well.

or a few solid kicks and punches to the exposed ribs, neck and throat area.

not to mention the possibility of a concussion.. although i agree that a) the shape of their skulls means that they can probably distribute the force of the blow much better than a human skull b) their massive neck will stabilize the head and prevent as excessive shaking of the brain case as in humans.

i am far less sure of the efficacy of choking, joint locks and arm bars though.
Edited by TheWho, Feb 2 2012, 10:48 AM.
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GreenDragon
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TheWho, its going to take alot more then "20 left hooks" to take out a chimp. For one thing if a human gets too close to the chimp at such an early stage, hes going to get ripped apart. They are stronger and more durable then you are making them out to be.

Youre also discounting how a well-placed, focused, strike could do far more then an unfocused barrage of hits. I never said it takes 20 minutes to "charge up" like you think I did; it can take a second, but if the person is flustered its going to be hard to achieve.

Once again, my point was that many of these experiments showing the immense power of martial artists and other fighters were done in controlled environments, where they were able to concentrate and use their technique to the fullest, and weren't fighting an active, living creature that will put in its own resistance.

In the right circumstances, martial artists can deliver precise strikes far stronger then even heavyweight boxers can. I wouldn't be surprised if boxers themselves would be able to deliver a stronger punch in a practice situation then in an actual fight.

If you think some random strikes from even a very strong man is going to take out a chimp, a small leopard, or even a large wolf, you clearly don't know the anatomy of these animals, and you don't know much about martial arts.

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TheWho
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GreenDragon
Feb 2 2012, 10:24 AM
Youre also discounting how a well-placed, focused, strike could do far more then an unfocused barrage of hits. I never said it takes 20 minutes to "charge up" like you think I did; it can take a second, but if the person is flustered its going to be hard to achieve.

when you talk about punching you should really take the word "focus" out of your vocabulary.

have you heard of this thing called muscle memory? have you pursued any form of athletic endeavour..

throwing a power punch is more like a reflex action than anything else. like lifting a finger...

what part of throwing a powerful punch is easy do you NOT UNDERSTAND? honestly i wish you would go to a fight gym and meet some fighters and let them demonstrate how easy it is to throw a powerful straight right. masturbation takes more concentration than throwing a power punch...

GreenDragon
Feb 2 2012, 10:24 AM
TheWho, its going to take alot more then "20 left hooks" to take out a chimp. For one thing if a human gets too close to the chimp at such an early stage, hes going to get ripped apart. They are stronger and more durable then you are making them out to be.

typically when two animals are of similar strength, it is hard for either one of them to "rip the other apart".

as for the number of strikes.. i guess it depends on how well placed they are..

i mean one well placed punch would probably break the far smaller chimp's face.

GreenDragon
Feb 2 2012, 10:24 AM
Once again, my point was that many of these experiments showing the immense power of martial artists and other fighters were done in controlled environments, where they were able to concentrate and use their technique to the fullest, and weren't fighting an active, living creature that will put in its own resistance.

the ring and cage isn't really a controlled environment..

as for the experiments, they were asked to throw a punch and the machine recorded it.. the numbers don't lie.

pro fighters replicate these results regularly on PPV.. you should go watch it.

GreenDragon
Feb 2 2012, 10:24 AM
In the right circumstances, martial artists can deliver precise strikes far stronger then even heavyweight boxers can. I wouldn't be surprised if boxers themselves would be able to deliver a stronger punch in a practice situation then in an actual fight.

If you think some random strikes from even a very strong man is going to take out a chimp, a small leopard, or even a large wolf, you clearly don't know the anatomy of these animals, and you don't know much about martial arts.

boxers on average probably have the most powerful punches in the world.

its a myth that some skinny, wisp of a man chinese wushu guy has a more powerful punch than a boxer.

they did that test in that Nat Geo documentary.. the HW boxer (some nobody) had the most powerful punch.



Edited by TheWho, Feb 2 2012, 10:47 AM.
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populator135
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TheWho, you take yourself a little too seriously. You are talking to me like I just came out of confinement into the world, and have no knoledge of anything. I have more than 3 times the number of years of experience than you have, and been in situations and done things that you have only done in Call of Duty. Back to the topic, You mentioned that a chimp and a man are of equal strength. What on earth has given you that impression ? You also said that a cage is not a controlled situation. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be many UFC fighters left... You claim you know everything about Fighter vs Animal because you interact with fighters. Have you interacted with aggressive animals ? Have you trained in fighting other species ? I have. And I tell you this: An 80 pound Belgian Malnois, the most common military attack dog, will put highly trained commandos through hell. In order to kill one of these dogs bare-handed, you have to come to terms with the fact that you will get injured pretty badly. And that is just a domestic dog...
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TheWho
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populator135
Feb 2 2012, 11:57 AM
Back to the topic, You mentioned that a chimp and a man are of equal strength. What on earth has given you that impression ?

we have already discussed this in the old forum.. more or less the latest scientific study that improved and corrected Bauman's indicates that super humans would be as strong if not stronger than a wild alpha chimps due to massive size advantage and tougher explosive strength training...

i mean the 190lb employee out pulled all the much smaller chimps who were motivated by food after fasting shortly before and given repeated pulls till they hit a plateau..

populator135
Feb 2 2012, 11:57 AM
You also said that a cage is not a controlled situation. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be many UFC fighters left...

well that is because referees save fighters when they are on the verge of being killed by stopping the fight..

it is the duty of the referee to stop the fight if the fighter's has been seriously concussed (or have his face broken) or when the fighter taps.. if not the fighter would likely die from brain damage from further strikes or if the submission is allowed to be completed, get his arm bone and joints totally shattered..

populator135
Feb 2 2012, 11:57 AM
TheWhoYou claim you know everything about Fighter vs Animal because you interact with fighters. Have you interacted with aggressive animals ? Have you trained in fighting other species ? I have. And I tell you this: An 80 pound Belgian Malnois, the most common military attack dog, will put highly trained commandos through hell. In order to kill one of these dogs bare-handed, you have to come to terms with the fact that you will get injured pretty badly. And that is just a domestic dog...

lol an 80lb dog?

Alexander karelin was famous for body slamming 280-300lb Olympic level wrestlers into the ground with amazing power and force..

as i often say, Karelin would pick up the pup by the scruff of its neck and slam it onto the concrete, literally breaking every bone in it's body..

you can't compare guys like Fedor to a commando, lol.


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TheWho
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also.. for the discussion about crouching to punch shorter opponents..

well fighters often crouch down very low and then punch upwards when they bob and weave.. Tyson often did an exaggerated version of this... with a alpha chimp of say 5'5 in height a very, for a very tall fighter the difference is instead of punching upwards, one must punch downwards with the aid of gravity (although more stress on the back from bending) or punch right in front of themselves.. no big deal

regardless for tall fighters, i believe kicking or kneeing the body and face shouldn't be put off the table..

the guy in the documentary Gato linked us too also has a very nasty headbutt, lol..


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populator135
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I would like to see that study. The latest study that I was aware of, stated that a chimp is as powerful as a man 2,5 times it's own weight. I also thought an 80 pound dog was not sufficient against very fit powerful men. I was wrong, and I was humbled.

P.S. The next time a supersoldier is requiered to conduct Alpine warfare in -20 C, and survive for days in these conditions while fighting and carrying 55-60 pounds worth of equipment for miles every single day, we shall call for Fedor..
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populator135
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Chimps don't stand upright. Even a 1.70m chimp, is a lot shorter in a crouched position.
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TheWho
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populator135
Feb 2 2012, 12:37 PM
I would like to see that study. The latest study that I was aware of, stated that a chimp is as powerful as a man 2,5 times it's own weight. I also thought an 80 pound dog was not sufficient against very fit powerful men. I was wrong, and I was humbled.

unfortunately i did not save the study.. it was posted very recently on the old Carnivora in the chimp v Pudianowski thread.. maybe you can ask the mods to post it if they in fact saved it..

also you can't compare even a fit man to Karelin.. he would toss him about like you would a little girl.. until you grapple with even a decent wrestler then you won't know their insane strength and ability to manipulate bodies..

populator135
Feb 2 2012, 12:37 PM
P.S. The next time a supersoldier is requiered to conduct Alpine warfare in -20 C, and survive for days in these conditions while fighting and carrying 55-60 pounds worth of equipment for miles every single day, we shall call for Fedor..

precisely.. a solider has to train for so many things.. weather training, survival skills, weapon training, rifle training, cardio training..

it leaves very little time to devote purely toward crucial aspects of hand to hand combat like a real fighter such as Fedor..

populator135
Feb 2 2012, 12:39 PM
Chimps don't stand upright. Even a 1.70m chimp, is a lot shorter in a crouched position.

chimps do not really crouch so much as they lean forward to bite, grapple and strike.. so yes, slightly less than 5'6.. regardless, whatever it is, the height will be that of a short man.

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