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Who wins?
American Lion 22 (66.7%)
Homotherium crenatidens 11 (33.3%)
Total Votes: 33
American Lion v Homotherium crenatidens; Who wins?
Topic Started: Jan 25 2012, 05:52 PM (6,451 Views)
Taipan
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American Lion - Panthera leo atrox
The American lion (Panthera leo atrox or P. atrox) — also known as the North American lion, Naegele’s giant jaguar or American cave lion — is an extinct lion of the family Felidae, endemic to North America during the Pleistocene epoch (0.34 mya to 11,000 years ago), existing for approximately 0.33 million years. It has been shown by genetic analysis to be a sister lineage to the Eurasian cave lion (Panthera leo spelaea or P. spelaea). The American lion is an extinct animal which originated in North America and went on to colonize part of South America as part of the Great American Interchange. The head-body length of the American lion is estimated to have been 1.6–2.5 m (5 ft 3 in–8 ft 2 in) and it would have stood 1.2 metres (4 ft) at the shoulder.[4] Thus it was smaller than its contemporary competitor for prey, the giant short-faced bear, which was the largest carnivoran of North America at the time. The American lion was not as heavily built as the saber-toothed cat Smilodon populator, which may have weighed up to 360–470 kilograms (790–1,000 lb).[5] Sorkin (2008) estimated it to weigh roughly 420 kilograms (930 lb), but new estimations show a top weight of 351 kg (774lbs.) for the largest specimen and an average weight for males of 255.65 kg (563lbs.).

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Homotherium crenatidens
Homotherium is an extinct genus of machairodontine saber-toothed cats, often termed scimitar cats, endemic to North America, South America, Europe, Asia, and Africa during the Pliocene and Pleistocene epochs (5 mya–10 000 years ago), existing for approximately 5 million years. In 2008, the distal end of a huge left humerus was uncovered by the crew of the fishing vessel from the bottom of the North Sea. An extensive comparative study by Dr. Mol and Van Logchem led to the attribution of the bone to the late Pliocene to the early Pleistocene scimitar-toothed cat, Homotherium crenatidens, almost as heavy as a small thoroughbred horse, weighing around 400 kg. Compared to the skull of a tiger or a lion, Homotherium had a longer snout, a larger nasal opening, a longer sagittal crest at the back of the skull, narrower cheek-bones and a battery of upper incisor teeth which stuck out more prominently from the teeth behind it. Its dorsal profile was almost straight lined and the lower jaw exhibited flanges not as prominent as those of Megantereon. It had hind limbs of similar length to those of tigers and lions(Jordi Agusti) and proportionally longer and in some ways weaker forelimbs. Some features of the hind limb were once taken to indicate a partially plantigrade stance, but the interpretation is now recognized as incorrect(Alan Turner).The other species of scimitar-toothed cat that is known from the North Sea, is smaller Homotherium latidens which had a slender body design of typical Homotherium morpho-type.

Posted Image

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Panthera tigris soloensis
 
Would Homotherium crenatidens vs American lion be a mismatch in favor of the lion? What I've read the Homotherium could have weighed up to 400 kg, similar to that or a bit less than the weight of the American lion.
Edited by Taipan, Mar 14 2016, 03:05 PM.
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populator135
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I think it's 50/50.
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ShadowPredator
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I've got no idea who'd win this
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Wolf Eagle
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They are very even. I'm going to wait for more replies before I vote.
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Panthera tigris soloensis
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Was Homotherium less robust than Smilodon?
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ShadowPredator
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Yes
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Panthera tigris soloensis
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Was it still more robust than modern felines though?

Homotherium's teeth look more robust and less fragile though, which would be more useful in the fight.
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populator135
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The american Homotherium was on par with the modern lion when it comes to robustness. I don't know if this European subspecies had a different anatomy.
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Taipan
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The American Lion would win this, assuming P. leo atrox & P. leo spelaeus were similar builds and H. crenatidens was similar to H. latidens:

Quote:
 
Homotherium Latidens & Cave Lions:

The common large felid from the late Pleistocene of Europe is the cave lion (Panthera leo spelaea), which is supposed to have preyed upon nearly all of the available larger mammals in its vicinity, such as horse, deer, bison, aurochs, yak, musk ox, sheep, goat, saiga antelope, juvenile mammoth, and juvenile rhinoceros (Kahlke, 1999). Homotherium was of almost the same size as the cave lion, and it is supposed to have fed upon juvenile Mammuthus primigenius and other such large prey (Hooijer, 1962; Turner and Anto´n, 1997). The recovery of only a single dentary in the North Sea is obviously not enough to make suppositions about the geographical range of Homotherium in Europe during the late Pleistocene. Further investigations will be needed to determine if specimens of H. latidens can be found in existing collections of late Pleistocene postcranial fossils now attributed to P. leo spelaea. In this respect, it is finally worth stressing that the now established occurrence of this large predator as an element of the late Pleistocene large carnivore guild opens a new perspective, and necessitates a re-evaluation of the competitive relationship between large carnivorans and Homo in the late Pleistocene of Europe.
Evidence of cursorial adaptations in Homotherium suggests a hunting technique different from modern cats or smilodontine sabre-tooths. Some, like reduction of the claws, would have limited the ability of individual homotheres to bring down large prey, implying group action. Homotherium would also have been disadvantaged in direct confrontation with Pleistocene lions by smaller body mass, reduced forepaw muscle strength, smaller claws and more fragile dentition. Its hunting technique would have worked best in more open habitats, but competition from lions would have forced it to seek moderate cover.

(Exerpts from)
LATE PLEISTOCENE SURVIVAL OF THE SABER-TOOTHED CAT HOMOTHERIUM IN
NORTHWESTERN EUROPE

Co-existence of scimitar-toothed cats, lions and hominins in the European Pleistocene. Implications of the post-cranial anatomy of Homotherium latidens (Owen) for comparative palaeoecology


Also of note, some believe Homotherium crenatidens to simply be a larger Homotherium latidens.
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yigit05
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american lion wins
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Admantus
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yigit05
Jul 19 2012, 10:50 PM
american lion wins
vague reason is vague

i think this will be a close fight, but if the homotherium can out grapple the lion, it wins.
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Wolf Eagle
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Prehistoric Cat, could you make a size comparison of the two, if possible?
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Megafelis Fatalis
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Wolf Eagle
Jul 20 2012, 02:32 AM
Prehistoric Cat, could you make a size comparison of the two, if possible?
Unfortunately i can't, Because there isn't a lots of information about H.crenatidens height or length, also there isn't any good pictures .
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Wolf Eagle
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Ya, I tried looking it up and didn't find much. Oh well.
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yigit05
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Admantus
Jul 20 2012, 02:07 AM
yigit05
Jul 19 2012, 10:50 PM
american lion wins
vague reason is vague

i think this will be a close fight, but if the homotherium can out grapple the lion, it wins.
american lion 450kg
homotherium 400kg
american lion stronger bite,american lion 130cm,agility,speed
homotherium crenindaes can be up to 120 cm,more muscular,big dog teeth
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