Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Carnivora. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
White Rhinoceros v African Forest Elephant
Topic Started: Jan 28 2012, 01:31 PM (22,338 Views)
Taipan
Member Avatar
Administrator

White Rhinoceros - Ceratotherium simum
The White Rhinoceros or Square-lipped rhinoceros (Ceratotherium simum) is one of the five species of rhinoceros that still exist. It has a wide mouth used for grazing and is the most social of all rhino species. White Rhinoceroses are found in grassland and savannah habitat. Herbivore grazers that eat grass, preferring the shortest grains, the White Rhinoceros is one of the largest pure grazers. White Rhinoceroses produce sounds which include a panting contact call, grunts and snorts during courtship, squeals of distress, and deep bellows or growls when threatened. Threat displays (in males mostly) include wiping its horn on the ground and a head-low posture with ears back, combined with snarl threats and shrieking if attacked. The White Rhinoceros is quick and agile and can run 50 km/h (31 mph). The White Rhinoceros is the world's largest land mammal after the three species of elephant. It has a massive body and large head, a short neck and broad chest. The head and body length is 3.4 to 4.2 m (11 to 14 ft), with the tail adding another 37 to 71 cm (15 to 28 in). Shoulder height is 1.5 to 2 m (4 ft 10 in to 6 ft 7 in). Weight in this animal typically ranges from 1,360 to 3,630 kg (3,000 to 8,000 lb). The male, averaging 2,300 kg (5,100 lb) is slightly heavier than the female, at an average of 1,700 kg (3,700 lb). The largest recorded White Rhinoceros was about 4,500 kg (9,900 lb). On its snout it has two horn-like growths, one behind the other. These are made of solid keratin, in which they differ from the horns of bovids (cattle and their relatives), which are keratin with a bony core, and deer antlers, which are solid bone. The front horn is larger and averages 90 cm (35 in) in length, reaching as much as 150 cm (59 in).

Posted Image

African Forest Elephant - Loxodonta cyclotis
The African Forest Elephant (Loxodonta cyclotis) is a forest dwelling elephant of the Congo Basin. Formerly considered either a synonym or a subspecies of the African Savanna Elephant (Loxodonta africana), a 2010 study established that the two are distinct species. These forest-dwelling elephants are smaller and darker than their savanna relatives and have smaller and characteristically rounded ears. The upper lip and nose are elongated into a trunk that is more hairy than that of the savanna elephants'. The male African Forest Elephant rarely exceed 2.5 metres (8 ft) in height, while the African Bush Elephant is usually over 3 meters (just under 10 feet) and sometimes almost 4 meters (13 ft) tall. With regard to the number of toenails: the African Bush Elephant normally has 4 toenails on the frontfoot and 3 on the hindfoot, the African Forest Elephant normally has 5 toenails on the frontfoot and 4 on the hindfoot (like the Asian elephant), but hybrids between the two species occur.
Male shoulder height: up to 2.5 m
Weight 2.7 - 6 tonnes

Posted Image

___________________________________________________________________

Gregoire
 
African Forest elephant vs White rhino
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Replies:
Mammuthus
Member Avatar
Proboscidean Enthusiast
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Hash Slinging Slasher
Mar 28 2018, 07:19 AM
Mammuthus
Mar 28 2018, 06:14 AM
Quote:
 
In the op, it says that the rhino is 1.3 to 3.6 tons and the elephant is 2.7 to 6 tons, so the elephant is larger...

Just a word of advice; don’t always trust the OPs just sayin’

Quote:
 
That is definitely inaccurate

I sense sarcasm, but it may be more accurate than you think. The average African bush elephant bull is some 0.45 metres taller at the shoulder than an Asian elephant bull and at least 1 metre taller than a Forest elephant bull. I will scale that out for you just to give you a sense on whah that would look like.
Can you post a source about the weight of the forest elephants pls?
Sure, here you go:

"No study has focused on the body mass of L. cyclotis, but an average African forest elephant male of 220 cm at the shoulders should be around 2000 kg as its body shape is very similar to that of L. africana."
https://www.app.pan.pl/archive/published/app61/app001362014.pdf

Also, I scaled out what they all 3 species of Elephant' should look like when compared to each other:
Posted Image
Worth noting that the Forest elephant should be taken with a grain of salt. So yeah, basically that comparison you commented on is definitely more accurate than one would think.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Lightning
Member Avatar
Omnivore
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Mammuthus
Mar 29 2018, 12:59 AM
Hash Slinging Slasher
Mar 28 2018, 07:19 AM
Mammuthus
Mar 28 2018, 06:14 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Can you post a source about the weight of the forest elephants pls?
Sure, here you go:

"No study has focused on the body mass of L. cyclotis, but an average African forest elephant male of 220 cm at the shoulders should be around 2000 kg as its body shape is very similar to that of L. africana."
https://www.app.pan.pl/archive/published/app61/app001362014.pdf

Also, I scaled out what they all 3 species of Elephant' should look like when compared to each other:
Posted Image
Worth noting that the Forest elephant should be taken with a grain of salt. So yeah, basically that comparison you commented on is definitely more accurate than one would think.
Ok thanks. Rhino wins at average weights.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Sam1
Herbivore
[ *  *  *  * ]
A ~ 2.2m tall elephant vs a ~1.80m tall rhino. At total averages the rhino should be slightly smaller than this but it really wouldn't make much difference.
Excuse the rough and sloppy job, I'm just exttemely short of time this week.

Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Mammuthus
Member Avatar
Proboscidean Enthusiast
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Cool comparison, but yeah the Rhino is winning this.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Maximus
Heterotrophic Organism
[ *  *  * ]
Whit rhino would win the fight.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Lightning
Member Avatar
Omnivore
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
221Extra
Jan 29 2012, 04:54 PM
Anyways the African bush elephant bull beats all rhinos the other three do not.
I know that this is a really old post and I'm not sure whether you still hold this opinion but an adult male Asian elephant would easily trounce all rhinos.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ausar
Member Avatar
Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can!
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
If that size comp. is correct then I definitely like the rhino's odds. Granted I think a shorter but much thicker horn than the one the size comp. rhino has will serve the odd toed ungulate better (such a horn would be stronger but obviously large and deadly enough to kill the elephant), but yeah, this is a good fight.
Edited by Ausar, Apr 9 2018, 08:02 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Taipan
Member Avatar
Administrator

Even if the two animals were a similar height/weight - the Elephant still has two stabbing weapons (and a trunk) compared to the Rhino's one.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Lightning
Member Avatar
Omnivore
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
When I read that the forest elephant is just 2 tons and, thus, smaller than the average male white rhino which is 2.7 tons, I thought the rhino would win.

However, if they're the same size or the elephant is slightly larger, then I'm not sure anymore.

The elephant's tusks are a tried and tested weapon:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/642731.stm

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-04-28/elephant-kills-12-females-over-spurned-advances/414282

On the other hand, a buffalo took several stabs from the rhino's horn but survived until the next day:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DH0B5pIX2B2o&ved=0ahUKEwip7J252KzaAhXsCMAKHeVMBEYQtwIIITAB&usg=AOvVaw2VZVN53DhSLff-iFry2pou

If a much smaller buffalo can take several stabs from a rhino's horn and survive until the next day, I'm not sure whether a rhino would be able to kill an equal sized or larger elephant without being killed first.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
221Extra
Member Avatar
Deny, deny, deny.
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Hash Slinging Slasher,

I suggest you read the white rhinoceros profile, their horns really are devastating weapons just as much as elephant tusks.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Sam1
Herbivore
[ *  *  *  * ]
The horn is obviously more dangerous because of how it is pointed. Rhino's whole body is built like one maximised thrust generator.
And it is just way more powerfully built than the elephant.

Also, two spikes aren't more deadly than one, on contrary. One horn means all force is concentrated in one point; if there are two or more points, each one will have less force behind it.
In this case, all the force from a rhino will go through one point targeting elephant's most vulnerable areas while the elephant will counter it with two lesser vectors pointed against rhino's upper and far more durable area.
Really basic and obvious stuff that anyone should see.
Edited by Sam1, Apr 9 2018, 06:49 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Taipan
Member Avatar
Administrator

Hash Slinging Slasher
Apr 9 2018, 05:16 PM


The elephant's tusks are a tried and tested weapon:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/642731.stm




Here:

Taipan
Jan 29 2012, 02:43 PM
Killing of black and white rhinoceroses by African elephants in
Hluhluwe-Umfolozi Park, South Africa


"An unusual, but not unique, situation
has arisen in HUP. African elephants, Loxodonta
africana Blumenbach, 1797, have been killing both
black (n = 5) and white rhinos (n = 58), mainly through
tusk wounds made to the shoulder and chest area."

Posted Image


Source: Killing of black and white rhinoceroses by African elephants in Hluhluwe-Umfolozi Park, South Africa

Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Lightning
Member Avatar
Omnivore
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Edit: I just remembered, the tusks of the forest elephant are facing downwards and are not as effective, the rhino wins vast majority of the time.


221Extra
Apr 9 2018, 05:43 PM
Hash Slinging Slasher,

I suggest you read the white rhinoceros profile, their horns really are devastating weapons just as much as elephant tusks.
Yes and I now favour the white rhino over a forest elephant.

However, the Bush elephant is still not the only elephant that can beat a white rhino. An adult male Asian elephant would also beat an adult male white rhino.
Edited by Lightning, Apr 9 2018, 10:54 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
221Extra
Member Avatar
Deny, deny, deny.
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Sam1
Apr 9 2018, 06:03 PM
The horn is obviously more dangerous because of how it is pointed. Rhino's whole body is built like one maximised thrust generator.
And it is just way more powerfully built than the elephant.

Also, two spikes aren't more deadly than one, on contrary. One horn means all force is concentrated in one point; if there are two or more points, each one will have less force behind it.
In this case, all the force from a rhino will go through one point targeting elephant's most vulnerable areas while the elephant will counter it with two lesser vectors pointed against rhino's upper and far more durable area.
Really basic and obvious stuff that anyone should see.

Correct, thats what kind of makes posting these accounts of the larger bush bull killing rhinos a bit absurd. The forest variety really lacks the size and strength to replicate what those bull bush elephants did. The point is perfectly illustrated by the scales.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ausar
Member Avatar
Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can!
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
To be fair, I do think one vs. two horns/tusks has some trade offs. What Sam1 said about pressure exertion is true, but I think having multiple goring weapons could potentially be better for interlocking/wrestling. Although, the rhino's somewhat lower position relative to the elephant and where its horn points to doesn't make me think this will be a big issue in this case.
Edited by Ausar, Apr 10 2018, 11:11 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Interspecific Conflict · Next Topic »
Add Reply