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White Rhinoceros v African Forest Elephant
Topic Started: Jan 28 2012, 01:31 PM (22,337 Views)
Taipan
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White Rhinoceros - Ceratotherium simum
The White Rhinoceros or Square-lipped rhinoceros (Ceratotherium simum) is one of the five species of rhinoceros that still exist. It has a wide mouth used for grazing and is the most social of all rhino species. White Rhinoceroses are found in grassland and savannah habitat. Herbivore grazers that eat grass, preferring the shortest grains, the White Rhinoceros is one of the largest pure grazers. White Rhinoceroses produce sounds which include a panting contact call, grunts and snorts during courtship, squeals of distress, and deep bellows or growls when threatened. Threat displays (in males mostly) include wiping its horn on the ground and a head-low posture with ears back, combined with snarl threats and shrieking if attacked. The White Rhinoceros is quick and agile and can run 50 km/h (31 mph). The White Rhinoceros is the world's largest land mammal after the three species of elephant. It has a massive body and large head, a short neck and broad chest. The head and body length is 3.4 to 4.2 m (11 to 14 ft), with the tail adding another 37 to 71 cm (15 to 28 in). Shoulder height is 1.5 to 2 m (4 ft 10 in to 6 ft 7 in). Weight in this animal typically ranges from 1,360 to 3,630 kg (3,000 to 8,000 lb). The male, averaging 2,300 kg (5,100 lb) is slightly heavier than the female, at an average of 1,700 kg (3,700 lb). The largest recorded White Rhinoceros was about 4,500 kg (9,900 lb). On its snout it has two horn-like growths, one behind the other. These are made of solid keratin, in which they differ from the horns of bovids (cattle and their relatives), which are keratin with a bony core, and deer antlers, which are solid bone. The front horn is larger and averages 90 cm (35 in) in length, reaching as much as 150 cm (59 in).

Posted Image

African Forest Elephant - Loxodonta cyclotis
The African Forest Elephant (Loxodonta cyclotis) is a forest dwelling elephant of the Congo Basin. Formerly considered either a synonym or a subspecies of the African Savanna Elephant (Loxodonta africana), a 2010 study established that the two are distinct species. These forest-dwelling elephants are smaller and darker than their savanna relatives and have smaller and characteristically rounded ears. The upper lip and nose are elongated into a trunk that is more hairy than that of the savanna elephants'. The male African Forest Elephant rarely exceed 2.5 metres (8 ft) in height, while the African Bush Elephant is usually over 3 meters (just under 10 feet) and sometimes almost 4 meters (13 ft) tall. With regard to the number of toenails: the African Bush Elephant normally has 4 toenails on the frontfoot and 3 on the hindfoot, the African Forest Elephant normally has 5 toenails on the frontfoot and 4 on the hindfoot (like the Asian elephant), but hybrids between the two species occur.
Male shoulder height: up to 2.5 m
Weight 2.7 - 6 tonnes

Posted Image

___________________________________________________________________

Gregoire
 
African Forest elephant vs White rhino
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Taipan
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Hash Slinging Slasher
Apr 9 2018, 06:37 PM
Edit: I just remembered, the tusks of the forest elephant are facing downwards and are not as effective, the rhino wins vast majority of the time.


Did you remember that Elephants have flexible necks allowing them to change the angles of the tusks??



Sam1
Apr 9 2018, 06:03 PM
The horn is obviously more dangerous because of how it is pointed. Rhino's whole body is built like one maximised thrust generator.
And it is just way more powerfully built than the elephant.


Really, which study stated rhinos are "way more powerfully built than the elephant" ?


Sam1
Apr 9 2018, 06:03 PM
Also, two spikes aren't more deadly than one, on contrary. One horn means all force is concentrated in one point; if there are two or more points, each one will have less force behind it.


I am assuming the force would not differ. Force = mass x acceleration:

http://zonalandeducation.com/mstm/physics/mechanics/forces/newton/mightyFEqMA/mightyFEqMA.html

Are you meaning pressure? or force per unit area?

Sam1
Apr 9 2018, 06:03 PM
Also, two spikes aren't more deadly than one, on contrary. .


Two 'spikes' seem to work quite effectively, and I have not seen elephants carry wounds from their attacks on Rhinos. Any examples of this?

The trunk of Elephants seems to negate the Rhino horns. Comment?

Sam1
Apr 9 2018, 06:03 PM
Really basic and obvious stuff that anyone should see.


Well you sucked 221 in., and other points eg. "rhinos are way more powerfully built than the elephant" remain baseless claims. As requested, please substantiate them.

Posted Image

Here is more info on the age/maturity of the young Elephants that killed adult Rhinos with impunity:

"The culprit elephants were young
males (17–25 years old) who were entering
a state of musth (heightened aggression from
elevated hormones associated with reproductive
competition—Poole and Moss 1981)
well ahead of schedule—from 18 years of
age as opposed to a normal age of 28 years
(Poole 1987)—and were doing so because
of the absence of an older male hierarchy
(Slotow et al. 2000)."


Physically they are very likely to be undersized and not filled out like mature Bulls, and may represent a size closer to that of a large Forest Bull Elephant.

Either way, they appear to have totally decimated adult White Rhinos in that study.
Edited by Taipan, Apr 10 2018, 04:29 PM.
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Ursus 21
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Admin, random question, this image here:

Posted Image

Did you happen to get it from this answer here? Answer to who would win in a fight between a rhino and an elephant

If you did, you'd be surprised to know that I wrote that answer.

Here's my quora profile:

Regardless, I agree with you.

The elephant should win here.
Edited by Taipan, Apr 10 2018, 06:04 PM.
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Taipan
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Ursus 21
Apr 10 2018, 05:45 PM
Admin, random question, this image here:

Posted Image

Did you happen to get it from this answer here? Answer to who would win in a fight between a rhino and an elephant

If you did, you'd be surprised to know that I wrote that answer.

Here's my quora profile:

Regardless, I agree with you.

The elephant should win here.


I saw that and used it, because back in 2012 I posted it on Carnivora, and then it was posted on all the kiddie copy cat forums. Unfortunately Photobucket now has mine copy, although I dod restore it: http://carnivoraforum.com/single/?p=8231904&t=9328797





BTW, I removed your Quora profile link as it may be your real name. We have stalkers, that would seek out your facebook etc, and cyberbully you. rolleyes
Edited by Taipan, Apr 10 2018, 06:06 PM.
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Lightning
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I'm again unsure who would win.

I know there's an eyewitness testimony of a rhino killing a bull hippo with 2 stabs.

But then there's a video of a buffalo taking multiple stabs from a rhino and the buffalo was still alive at the end of the video (though the person who filmed the event said it did die the next day).

Video >>>>>>>>>>> eyewitness testimony

But a rhino just seems more formidable than an equal sized elephant from the way it is built, with tough skin, more stable, built like a tank.

But the Bush elephants who killed white rhinos were young only 15 to 20 years old, much smaller than a fully grown Bush elephant.

I think I support the elephant again.
Edited by Lightning, Apr 10 2018, 07:16 PM.
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Ursus 21
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Quote:
 
BTW, I removed your Quora profile link as it may be your real name. We have stalkers, that would seek out your facebook etc, and cyberbully you. rolleyes

Thank-you, I appreciate your concern.

Compounding the study you have posted, I can provide this source:

36 endangered rhinos killed by young elephants

Posted Image
Clashes between elephants and rhinos are not uncommon.

Aggressive young orphaned elephants are reported to have killed 36 rhinos, including rare black ones, in a game park in eastern South Africa.

According to conservationists, the young elephants have been provoking confrontations with the rhinos since they were introduced to Hluhluwe-Umofolozi Park in KwaZulu-Natal.

The elephants were orphaned when their parents were culled in the early 1990s in an effort to control the elephant population in Kruger National Park.

As they have matured, so they have become more aggressive.

Attacks on rhinos have been growing over the past two years, with 13 killed, including two black rhino, in the last five months of 1999, South African newspapers report.

Spate of killings

A park ranger said he had witnessed an elephant knocking a rhino over, trampling it and driving a tusk through its chest.

Conservation vet Dave Cooper said: "There was a spate of killings, and it was as if they were purposeful. The rhinos were ripped to pieces."

An endangered species - especially in Hluhluwe-Umofolozi Park
He said that elephant and rhino routinely clash in nature "but this sort of behaviour, when elephant actively go out and chase rhino, is totally abnormal".

Fellow conservationist Tony Conway said similarly aggressive behaviour had also been seen in Pilanesberg National Park in Northwest Province - another home for the Kruger Park orphaned elephants.

However, the killings at Pilanesberg stopped when six adult elephant bulls were introduced to the park. The young ones' behaviour patterns returned to normal under their influence.

Officials at Hluhluwe-Umfolozi Park have asked Kruger Park to send it 10 adult bulls in the hope that their presence will have the same effect on the young elephants there.

The park's top attractions are its rhino - both the white or square-lipped rhino and the rarer black or hooked-lipped rhino.

There are only about 1,000 black rhino left in South Africa.


Source: Elephants kill the endangered rhinos

These elephants were young bulls, and they were killing rhinos with confidence.

Taipan is right, a mature forest elephant can rival a young bush elephant in size, and young elephants are not properly filled out or at their physical prime in a way that adult elephants are.

The elephant wins here.




After looking at a misleading size comparison posted by Sam1, people have suddenly deduced that the rhino would win, accounting for its horn.

The evidence that I have provided below argues otherwise.

The elephant's tusks are just as fearsome and deadly, if not more so.

Elephant bull kills 12 sexually mature elephant cows by goring them to death with his tusks

Wildlife experts in southern India are hunting a rogue bull elephant who is thought to have gored 12 female tuskers to death because they spurned his sexual advances.

The Times in India says a 15-member task force has been set up to catch the aggressive male.

The elephant, called Alpha, has been on the run in the jungles of Kerala for the past three years.

Kerala's chief wildlife warden, KK Srivastava, said eight female elephants were found dead in the vast Periyar reserve last year and that two more had been found in recent weeks.

"Post-mortem reports and other evidence suggested that these were caused by the same tusker," he said.

"Two more females were found dead on March 12 and 21 this year [and] the nature of injuries point to the same culprit."

Two other deaths have been blamed on the 25-year-old Alpha, he added, without specifying when the females were found.

Alpha's behaviour has been blamed on "musth", a surge in the male reproductive hormone testosterone in bull elephants that leads to aggressive behaviour.

Forensic tests have shown that all the victims had puncture marks, indicating that they resisted a male who tried to force himself on them.

The wounds matched the dimensions of Alpha's tusks, the newspaper said.

The former deputy director of the Periyar Tiger Reserve, PP Pramod, says Alpha needs to have his tusks trimmed but they have to catch and tranquillise him first, which is risky.


"If it fell flat on its chest it would die instantly," he said.

"So we need to follow it and lift it as soon as he collapses."


Source: 12 elephant cows gored to death by the tusks of an aggressive bull

Have a look at these trophy hunts:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

I'm still very dubious about this new belief that the rhino's horn is a better weapon than both of the elephant's tusks (and its trunk).

Frankly, I'm inclined to believe the opposite.


Edited by Ursus 21, Apr 10 2018, 07:59 PM.
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Lightning
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Elephants are really strong.

https://youtu.be/oPdn-jK-MqM

I don't know who'd be stronger between an equal sized elephant and rhino, I'd need to see a study to know that.
Ursus 21
Apr 10 2018, 07:45 PM
a mature forest elephant can rival a young bush elephant in size,
If that's true, then the forest elephant destroys the rhino, it's not even a contest.

I just found this source but I'm not sure about it's reliability:

http://www.arkive.org/forest-elephant/loxodonta-cyclotis/image-G4461.html

It suggests that the forest elephant can indeed get much bigger than the white rhino.

Here is more about this website:

http://www.arkive.org/about/
Edited by Lightning, Apr 11 2018, 01:04 AM.
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I had the opinion of the rhino winning long before the scales, it just confirmed something I already knew the forest elephant's size advantage is not adequate to gurantee victory.

Tho I'm honesly not sure what relevance a tusker killing tuskless cows has in this match up? Yes, elephant tusks are devastating weapons, but killing essentially defenseless cows does not prove much. This elephants height against a rhino with a decent horn puts it's throat and chest at risk of getting gored.

Those elephants may not have filled out or been as big as fully mature bulls but some of the rhinos died being knocked over and seemingly crushed (internal injuries quite severe), that could only be caused by a "much larger animal" which the forest elephant is not.

A better case can be made for forest elephant winning using examples of maybe a matriarch killing rhinos. Interesting how cautious this matriarch was with rhino:

https://youtu.be/xQt5stPFyOw

Given that case of a matriarch killing a resting cape buffalo.
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Mammuthus
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Quote:
 
Quote:
 
a mature forest elephant can rival a young bush elephant in size,

If that's true, then the forest elephant destroys the rhino, it's not even a contest.

Well, a mature forest elephant is around 2 tonnes, as for a young/subadult Bush elephant I don't know, I will probably research into it later. But yeah, 2 tonnes against a White rhino that is around the same (several sources say they may actually be larger) that is defiantly not "not even a contest".

Does anyone have any other credible sources about the weight of the Rhino by the way?

Edited by Mammuthus, Apr 11 2018, 03:46 AM.
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Lightning
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Mammuthus
Apr 11 2018, 03:46 AM
But yeah, 2 tonnes against a White rhino that is around the same (several sources say they may actually be larger) that is defiantly not "not even a contest".

Does anyone have any other credible sources about the weight of the Rhino by the way?

I said that 'it's not even a contest' if the mature forest elephant is really the size of young 15 to 20 year old bush elephants who go around mass murdering white rhinos, not if the forest elephant is actually just 2 tonnes.
Hash Slinging Slasher
Apr 11 2018, 12:28 AM
Elephants are really strong.

https://youtu.be/oPdn-jK-MqM

I don't know who'd be stronger between an equal sized elephant and rhino, I'd need to see a study to know that.
Ursus 21
Apr 10 2018, 07:45 PM
a mature forest elephant can rival a young bush elephant in size,
If that's true, then the forest elephant destroys the rhino, it's not even a contest.

I just found this source but I'm not sure about it's reliability:

http://www.arkive.org/forest-elephant/loxodonta-cyclotis/image-G4461.html

It suggests that the forest elephant can indeed get much bigger than the white rhino.

Here is more about this website:

http://www.arkive.org/about/
This website says that male forest elelphants range from 2.7 tons to up to 6 tons but I'm not sure if it is reliable or not.
Edited by Lightning, Apr 11 2018, 04:17 AM.
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Mammuthus
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Quote:
 
I said that 'it's not even a contest' if the mature forest elephant is really the size of young 15 to 20 year old bush elephants who go around mass murdering white rhinos, not if the forest elephant is actually just 2 tonnes

Ah, I see, my bad then.

Quote:
 
This website says that male forest elelphants range from 2.7 tons to up to 6 tons but I'm not sure if it is reliable or not.

I don’t know about that source honestly. I would much rather trust the word of the source I posted saying they are around 2 tonnes.
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Lightning
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Mammuthus
Apr 11 2018, 04:49 AM
I would much rather trust the word of the source I posted saying they are around 2 tonnes.
The source you posted is 38 pages and talks about many different elephants and mammoth species lol , so it's hard to find the weight of the forest elephant. Will you tell me which page it's on?

I think the average male white rhino is something between 2.1 tons to 2.7 tons but I'm not sure.

Edit: Nevermind, I found the weight of the forest elephant on the source you posted. It ranges from 1.7 tons to 3.5 tons, with 2 tons being average.
Edited by Lightning, Apr 11 2018, 05:16 AM.
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Mammuthus
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Yeah it also talks about the weights of the other extant Proboscideans. As for the weight of the Rhino a couple sources say males are around 2.3 tonnes, if this is accurate that gives the Rhino weight advantage of 300kg.
Edited by Mammuthus, Apr 11 2018, 05:48 AM.
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Lightning
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Mammuthus
Apr 11 2018, 05:47 AM
Yeah it also talks about the weights of the other extant Proboscideans. As for the weight of the Rhino a couple sources say males are around 2.3 tonnes, if this is accurate that gives the Rhino weight advantage of 300kg.
Yeah, I guess it does. I changed my opinion so many times in this match that I'm not even going to post on it anymore. Enjoy your day.
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Ursus 21
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Tho I'm honesly not sure what relevance a tusker killing tuskless cows has in this match up? Yes, elephant tusks are devastating weapons, but killing essentially defenseless cows does not prove much.
Well, you figured it out.

The idea behind that post was to show how devastating the elephant's tusks are as weapons. Although, I wouldn't go as far as to call those cows 'defenceless.'

Also, any proof that they were tuskless?

Quote:
 
This elephants height against a rhino with a decent horn puts it's throat and chest at risk of getting gored.
The elephant's trunk, as well as its downward facing tusks would be its defence.

The elephant would lower its head and it wouldn't allow its throat to be targeted.

During intraspecific conflict as well, rhinos typically gore through the chest, shoulder and ribs, not at the throat.

Quote:
 
Those elephants may not have filled out or been as big as fully mature bulls but some of the rhinos died being knocked over and seemingly crushed (internal injuries quite severe), that could only be caused by a "much larger animal" which the forest elephant is not.
Some of them probably got crushed rather than gored, yes.

But not these ones:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Furthermore, the study says that elephants were mainly killing rhinos through tusks wounds made at the shoulder and chest area:

Posted Image

If that wasn't enough, here's an image of an elephant using its tusks to attack a rhino:

Posted Image

Clearly, elephants mostly use their tusks, not their crushing body weight, to kill rhinos.

Quote:
 
A better case can be made for forest elephant winning using examples of maybe a matriarch killing rhinos. Interesting how cautious this matriarch was with rhino:

https://youtu.be/xQt5stPFyOw
I clearly saw the rhino backing away the whole time.

He clearly turned his back and hastily retreated from the approaching matriarch.

Regardless, I fail to see this video's relevance to this topic.

Edited by Ursus 21, Apr 11 2018, 06:33 AM.
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Ursus 21
Apr 11 2018, 06:23 AM
Quote:
 
Tho I'm honesly not sure what relevance a tusker killing tuskless cows has in this match up? Yes, elephant tusks are devastating weapons, but killing essentially defenseless cows does not prove much.
Well, you figured it out.

The idea behind that post was to show how devastating the elephant's tusks are as weapons. Although, I wouldn't go as far as to call those cows 'defenceless.'

Also, any proof that they were tuskless?

Female asian elephants can have tusks, but they're tiny, so essentially for combat & or defense against a bull tusker, they're sitting ducks.

Ursus 21
Apr 11 2018, 06:23 AM
Quote:
 
This elephants height against a rhino with a decent horn puts it's throat and chest at risk of getting gored.
The elephant's trunk, as well as its downward facing tusks would be its defence.

The elephant would lower its head and it wouldn't allow its throat to be targeted.

The trunk is impressive & much stronger then one would think, but against a tank of a rhinoceros of a similar body mass & with a pedestrian height advantage compared to it's savanna cousin, I'm not so sure.

Ursus 21
Apr 11 2018, 06:23 AM
During intraspecific conflict as well, rhinos typically gore through the chest, shoulder and ribs, not at the throat.

They do not discriminate where they gore:




And in an interspecific account in which a bull white rhino killed a bull hippo, he gored the hippo's throat & in this instance here:



The cow rhino went for the bull elephant's throat, but due to the height advantage she could not reach, again a height advantage that the forest elephant does not enjoy to the extent of the bush elephant.
Ursus 21
Apr 11 2018, 06:23 AM

Quote:
 
Those elephants may not have filled out or been as big as fully mature bulls but some of the rhinos died being knocked over and seemingly crushed (internal injuries quite severe), that could only be caused by a "much larger animal" which the forest elephant is not.
Some of them probably got crushed rather than gored, yes.

But not these ones:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Furthermore, the study says that elephants were mainly killing rhinos through tusks wounds made at the shoulder and chest area:

Posted Image

If that wasn't enough, here's an image of an elephant using its tusks to attack a rhino:

Posted Image

Clearly, elephants mostly use their tusks, not their crushing body weight, to kill rhinos.

These postings are repetition at best, the point is that some of these rhinos as I noted suffered internal injuries that could only be "caused by a much larger animal". Now tell me what's the physical differences between the bush & forest varieties?

Ursus 21
Apr 11 2018, 06:23 AM
Quote:
 
A better case can be made for forest elephant winning using examples of maybe a matriarch killing rhinos. Interesting how cautious this matriarch was with rhino:

https://youtu.be/xQt5stPFyOw
I clearly saw the rhino backing away the whole time.

He clearly turned his back and hastily retreated from the approaching matriarch.

Regardless, I fail to see this video's relevance to this topic.


The rhino stood his ground against a group of elephants, I saw no "hastily retreat", I saw mutual respect.

The relevance is we've seen instances where matriarch's go nuts, here for exmaple:

Posted Image
http://www.viralthread.com/elephants-attack-on-a-buffalo-reminds-us-of-the-brutality-of-nature/?all

Also the major point is cow bush elephant & forest bull elephant's sizes overlap, with the cow bush elephant generally still being larger.
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