| Welcome to Carnivora. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| White Rhinoceros v African Forest Elephant | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 28 2012, 01:31 PM (22,335 Views) | |
| Taipan | Jan 28 2012, 01:31 PM Post #1 |
![]()
Administrator
![]()
|
White Rhinoceros - Ceratotherium simum The White Rhinoceros or Square-lipped rhinoceros (Ceratotherium simum) is one of the five species of rhinoceros that still exist. It has a wide mouth used for grazing and is the most social of all rhino species. White Rhinoceroses are found in grassland and savannah habitat. Herbivore grazers that eat grass, preferring the shortest grains, the White Rhinoceros is one of the largest pure grazers. White Rhinoceroses produce sounds which include a panting contact call, grunts and snorts during courtship, squeals of distress, and deep bellows or growls when threatened. Threat displays (in males mostly) include wiping its horn on the ground and a head-low posture with ears back, combined with snarl threats and shrieking if attacked. The White Rhinoceros is quick and agile and can run 50 km/h (31 mph). The White Rhinoceros is the world's largest land mammal after the three species of elephant. It has a massive body and large head, a short neck and broad chest. The head and body length is 3.4 to 4.2 m (11 to 14 ft), with the tail adding another 37 to 71 cm (15 to 28 in). Shoulder height is 1.5 to 2 m (4 ft 10 in to 6 ft 7 in). Weight in this animal typically ranges from 1,360 to 3,630 kg (3,000 to 8,000 lb). The male, averaging 2,300 kg (5,100 lb) is slightly heavier than the female, at an average of 1,700 kg (3,700 lb). The largest recorded White Rhinoceros was about 4,500 kg (9,900 lb). On its snout it has two horn-like growths, one behind the other. These are made of solid keratin, in which they differ from the horns of bovids (cattle and their relatives), which are keratin with a bony core, and deer antlers, which are solid bone. The front horn is larger and averages 90 cm (35 in) in length, reaching as much as 150 cm (59 in). ![]() African Forest Elephant - Loxodonta cyclotis The African Forest Elephant (Loxodonta cyclotis) is a forest dwelling elephant of the Congo Basin. Formerly considered either a synonym or a subspecies of the African Savanna Elephant (Loxodonta africana), a 2010 study established that the two are distinct species. These forest-dwelling elephants are smaller and darker than their savanna relatives and have smaller and characteristically rounded ears. The upper lip and nose are elongated into a trunk that is more hairy than that of the savanna elephants'. The male African Forest Elephant rarely exceed 2.5 metres (8 ft) in height, while the African Bush Elephant is usually over 3 meters (just under 10 feet) and sometimes almost 4 meters (13 ft) tall. With regard to the number of toenails: the African Bush Elephant normally has 4 toenails on the frontfoot and 3 on the hindfoot, the African Forest Elephant normally has 5 toenails on the frontfoot and 4 on the hindfoot (like the Asian elephant), but hybrids between the two species occur. Male shoulder height: up to 2.5 m Weight 2.7 - 6 tonnes ![]() ___________________________________________________________________
|
![]() |
|
| Replies: | |
|---|---|
| Ursus 21 | Apr 11 2018, 04:40 PM Post #121 |
![]()
Herbivore
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Okay, I still believe that females are able to create a substantial amount of resistance forces, and they would have fought back with their bulk and their trunk. I wouldn't call them sitting ducks, and the fact that the bull killed 12 of them in such a short time period speaks well for how much damage those tusks can cause. Hence, I posted it. Remember that the elephant would make an effort to protect its vital organs and inner structures when fighting, as would any animal. It can lower its head to cover its throat. If the rhino tries to come from underneath the chin, that would put the rhino in range to be attacked by the elephant's downward-facing tusks. Even if the rhino's horn did make contact with the neck, I doubt it would go through the elephant's hide like a needle. Have a look at this fight between a white rhino and a cape buffalo much smaller than itself: Video: https://youtu.be/lppidNnV3qY As far as I could tell, the rhino's horn failed to pierce the skin of an opponent less than half its size. The rhino was getting underneath the buffalo with its horn and it failed to cause serious damage. Therefore, even if the rhino did get a throat shot on the elephant with its horn, I think that action is very unlikely to result in a fatality. Good videos. I am now convinced that the rhino could possibly go for the throat, but as I said earlier, this is very unlikely to be a decisive move. If that elephant were to be a lot shorter in that fight with the rhino, that attack wouldn't have killed it either. The horn didn't even pierce any part of the elephant's skin throughout that fight. Compounding that, the elephant would defend its vulnerable spots. The purpose for posting these photos and information was to correct you; when you insinuated that elephants were mostly crushing rhinos with their great size, but they were not. They were using their tusks to kill rhinos. Okay, so, what insight does this video give us about a fight to the death between two healthy and aggressive males? We've got a female elephant and a male rhino being a bit cautious towards one another. Okay. Furthermore, of course rhinos are a bigger threat to elephants than cape buffalo. Hence, elephants may be a little more cautious when attacking rhinos than cape buffalo. You've shown me that sometimes an elephant will act cautiously around a rhino, and that it may charge and kill a buffalo. What relevance does this have to this hypothetical? Btw, sorry if this comes off as 'repetition' but did you read this?
Young, orphaned bush elephants were killing rhinos with impunity. A mature forest elephant can definitely rival a young bush elephant in size, and I am therefore heavily inclined to favour the elephant here. Any counterarguments? Edited by Ursus 21, Apr 11 2018, 04:45 PM.
|
![]() |
|
| 221Extra | Apr 12 2018, 12:20 AM Post #122 |
![]()
Deny, deny, deny.
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Ursus 21, did you miss the account I referenced of a white rhino bull killing a hippo bull? I decided to screenshot that way you and others may see it easier:![]() (Credit goes to Kifaru) http://www.rhinoresourcecenter.com/ref_files/1181457023.pdf As you can see these horns are also devastating weapons. Also as I let Hash Singing Slasher know earlier read these profiles, they're filled with great info (esp from Kifaru on white rhino), going around tying to pass this cape buffalo vid still even after I referenced account and profile makes him look disingenuous IMO. The rest of your post I will address either later today or tomorrow. Edited by 221Extra, Apr 12 2018, 12:23 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| Ursus 21 | Apr 12 2018, 12:54 AM Post #123 |
![]()
Herbivore
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Interesting account. Do you have any idea why one rhino can gore a hippo to death with just a couple of charges but another rhino, even after repeated tossing and goring, can't even pierce the skin of a cape buffalo? Is it up to circumstance? Are some rhinos much better at goring or have much sharper horns than other rhinos? Personally, I'm leaning towards the latter, there must be quite a bit of intraspecific variation going on here. Either way, I did miss that account earlier, so cheers for re-posting it. Edited by Ursus 21, Apr 12 2018, 12:55 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| Lightning | Apr 12 2018, 01:17 AM Post #124 |
![]()
Omnivore
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
While I did say that I won't post on this thread anymore, I'm going to have to respond to this. Like I said many times before, I consider videos far more reliable than eye witness accounts. With the rhino vs buffalo videos, both the one I posted earlier on and also the one Ursus posted later, we know for sure that it happened since we saw it with our own eyes. However, in regards to the rhino killing the hippo, it's just an eye witness account, we cannot see it ourselves and, hence, we cannot know for sure whether it really happened or not. Rhino failing to quickly kill buffalo: we know for sure it happened and happened twice. Rhino killing hippo: we don't know for sure whether it really happened or not. It's up to the readers whether they want to believe it or not. |
![]() |
|
| Sam1 | Apr 12 2018, 04:53 AM Post #125 |
|
Herbivore
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
..I wasn't paying much attention to this thread, as I feel it is beyond debate for me. But since responses have piled up, I'll just give a brief sum ups: - the rhino is obviously way more powerfully built pound for pound - I hope this doesn't need further explanation - and since these two are in the same size ballpark, the Rhino is a more powerful and durable animal. - the horn tip is more deadly than two tusk tips, kinda like a spear is more deadly than a fork. 221Extra gave a valid point about wrestling/controlling the opponent though. In that respect the tusks are more effective As for all the accounts of bush elephants killing rhinos..I just don't get it..trolling or what? A bush elephant is almost 3x the size of forest elephant and would absolutely smash it with ease in a fight. Edited by Sam1, Apr 12 2018, 04:55 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| 221Extra | Apr 12 2018, 02:22 PM Post #126 |
![]()
Deny, deny, deny.
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
It depends on the rhino's horn & the aggression with with it attacks. An upward's thrust powered by the white rhino's ridiculous neck muscles to the throat of the forest elephant would be devastating. Ala the attack on the hippo which has even thicker skin than elephants. And to each other, where "Fighting between territorial bulls accounts for 50% of mortalities." http://www.rhinoresourcecenter.com/pdf_files/125/1250327632.pdf
The elephant's height was a little too great & the rhino's horn not long enough. A mature bull with a decent horn would have the the advantage against a forest elephant bull. I hate to sound like a broken record here, but forest elephants are significantly smaller than bush elephant bulls.
Yes, I never stated all these rhinos were killed by internal injuries via crushing, but the point is clear, they were attacked by a much larger bush elephant, again which the forest elephant is not.
You & other's supporting the forest elephant would do better to use accounts of cow bush elephants besting white rhinos, as there size is definitely much closer to that of a 'mature forest elephant bull'. Do you now see the correlation?
Please read what I highlighted in yellow, does that sound like an animal of similar size to a forest elephant? You & Taipan are mistaken to use accounts of larger bush elephant bulls killing white rhino as some smoking gun for forest elephant superiority over the rhinoceros. This does not look like a forest elephant sized bush elephant: Per Mammuthus's source:
Edited by 221Extra, Apr 12 2018, 02:59 PM.
|
![]() |
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| « Previous Topic · Interspecific Conflict · Next Topic » |













![]](http://b2.ifrm.com/28122/87/0/p701956/pipright.png)






9:53 AM Jul 11