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Tyrannosaurus rex v Ankylosaurus magniventris
Topic Started: Jan 28 2012, 10:08 PM (48,647 Views)
Taipan
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Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago. It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

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Ankylosaurus magniventris
Ankylosaurus is a genus of ankylosaurid dinosaur, containing one species, A. magniventris. Fossils of Ankylosaurus are found in geologic formations dating to the very end of the Cretaceous Period (about 66.5–65.5 Ma ago) in western North America. Although a complete skeleton has not been discovered and several other dinosaurs are represented by more extensive fossil material, Ankylosaurus is often considered the archetypal armored dinosaur. Other ankylosaurids shared its well-known features—the heavily-armored body and massive bony tail club—but Ankylosaurus was the largest known member of the family. In comparison with modern land animals the adult Ankylosaurus was very large. Some scientists have estimated a length of 9 meters (30 ft). Another reconstruction suggests a significantly smaller size, at 6.25 m (20.5 ft) long, up to 1.5 m (5 ft) wide and about 1.7 m (5.5 ft) high at the hip. Ankylosaurus may have weighed over 6,000 kilograms (13,000 lb), making it one of the heaviest armored dinosaurs yet discovered. The body shape was low-slung and quite wide. It was quadrupedal, with the hind limbs longer than the forelimbs. Although its feet are still unknown, comparisons with other ankylosaurids suggest Ankylosaurus probably had five toes on each foot. The skull was low and triangular in shape, wider than it was long. The largest known skull measures 64.5 centimeters (25 in) long and 74.5 cm (29 in) wide.

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Tyrannosaurus VS Ankylosaurus
Edited by Taipan, May 25 2018, 11:58 PM.
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Spartan
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It should be mentioned that this compares the largest known Tyrannosaurus to the smallest Ankylosaurus.
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spinosaurus rex
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true, i should of mentioned that, but at least it's clear that an ankylosaur of 5 meters is well within the means of predation from a large tyrannosaur
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LionClaws
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A bigger problem is that T-rex probably wouldn't be able to reach the flank, given the high rotational inertia of theropods. Tyrannosaurs generally had a little less than most, and often had other adaptations to increase agility (eg, the arctometatarsalian condition of the foot), but ankylosaurus would still be considerably more maneuverable. If anky wants his tail facing T-rex, that's how it'll be.
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spinosaurus rex
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to be honest, while i don't doubt the validity of ankylosaurus being able to out turn a tyrannosaurus, i question that it's to the degree that would completely negate a tyrannosaurs ability to get to it's sides if the chance comes up. he's a good video image that displays the probable turn radius of tyrannosaurus created by saurian



thats actually a pretty good turn radius for an animal of it's size and stature. this plus the fact that tyrannosurus is significantly taller and over twice the length. lts also worth mentioning that a tyrannosaurus would be arching it's head and neck within the confines of it's turn, while at the same time clearing the ankylosaurs tail. it is totally possible for a tyrannosaurus to manage to bite an ankylosaurus within it's turn. the tyrannosaur has to be dead set at doing it which realistically speaking by the confines of it's habitat, would of been a pretty rare occurrence. but it can be accomplish. this is still a predator/ dangerous prey relationship.
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Black Ice
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The armor wouldn't be too tough a problem, Tyrannosaurus evolved jaws to punch through tough hides.

The tail wouldn't be as big of a problem either I'd think. Because if I'm not mistaken one of the hypothesis on why tail weapons are almost nonexistent nowadays is because they were inefficient compared to facial weapons or just body armor.
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LionClaws
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spinosaurus rex
Sep 22 2016, 02:34 AM
to be honest, while i don't doubt the validity of ankylosaurus being able to out turn a tyrannosaurus, i question that it's to the degree that would completely negate a tyrannosaurs ability to get to it's sides if the chance comes up.
Actually, if anky can out turn t-rex at all, then the fact that Rex has to cover more distance in order to successfully out flank anky than anky has to pivot to keep his tail facing rex means that anky will get to control relative orientations. You don't just need an agility advantage to outflank another animal, there has to be no comparing the two for one to be able to get to one side without getting "tagged" in the process.

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he's a good video image that displays the probable turn radius of tyrannosaurus created by saurian


If that's how quickly Rex could turn, then one can only imagine how quickly anky could pivot!

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thats actually a pretty good turn radius for an animal of it's size and stature. this plus the fact that tyrannosurus is significantly taller and over twice the length. lts also worth mentioning that a tyrannosaurus would be arching it's head and neck within the confines of it's turn, while at the same time clearing the ankylosaurs tail. it is totally possible for a tyrannosaurus to manage to bite an ankylosaurus within it's turn.

I still just can't see Rex getting around the tail. Attempting to grab it would have resulted in a crushed skull, and between anky's smaller size and quadrupedal stance, I just can't see Rex managing to approach from the flank.
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the tyrannosaur has to be dead set at doing it which realistically speaking by the confines of it's habitat, would of been a pretty rare occurrence. but it can be accomplish. this is still a predator/ dangerous prey relationship.

I'm assuming a WWD-type scenario where a mother Rex sees anky as a threat to her young. In cases where the female was/may have been larger, this is generally a fairly easy way to get a fight off the ground.

Black Ice
Sep 22 2016, 02:50 AM
The tail wouldn't be as big of a problem either I'd think. Because if I'm not mistaken one of the hypothesis on why tail weapons are almost nonexistent nowadays is because they were inefficient compared to facial weapons or just body armor.
The number of different taxa in which they have developed, from glyptodonts to various sauropods to at least two different clades of thyreophorans - in which the weapons took a panoply of forms that would make the most industrious of medieval armorers turn green with envy - makes me think that that hypothesis is kind of terrible. It's like saying that saber toothed predators are uncommon today because they weren't very good hunters, despite the huge number of mammals and other therapsids that appear to have independently evolved that sort of morphology.
Edited by LionClaws, Sep 27 2016, 11:32 AM.
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spinosaurus rex
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Quote:
 
Actually, if anky can out turn t-rex at all, then the fact that Rex has to cover more distance in order to successfully out flank anky than anky has to pivot to keep his tail facing rex means that anky will get to control relative orientations. You don't just need an agility advantage to outflank another animal, there has to be no comparing the two for one to be able to get to one side without getting "tagged" in the process.


i disagree with this. the greater distanced covered by the tyrannosaurus can transition it in a sideways ark above the ankylosaur. it's hips, body, neck, and head are all turning within the confines of what it's legs are accomplishing. this intern will allow a tyrannosaurus to git within an ankylosaurs pivoting motions and potentially accomplish a bite to the sides. ausar has provided plenty of viable evidence in support of this form of motion and it is also exploited in the upcoming scientific game, Saurian. strongly recommend checking out that game as it is bringing many scientific discoveries to new light.

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If that's how quickly Rex could turn, then one can only imagine how quickly anky could pivot!


no doubt there buddy. i don't think it would be to a degree where it would make it impervious to a tenacious circling tyrannosaur however

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I still just can't see Rex getting around the tail. Attempting to grab it would have resulted in a crushed skull, and between anky's smaller size and quadrupedal stance, I just can't see Rex managing to approach from the flank.


the tyrannosaur is above the ankylosaurus, it body is not inline, both the head, neck, and body are arching to the side in a near serpentine motion. being more the twice the length of the opponent here, the theropod can circle the opponent here whos weapons here would be entirely defensive in nature, until an opening can be exploited and the tyrannosaur can precisely lung and biting the side while either clearing the tail, or suffering from a non-lethal blow, or perhaps a crippling blow. all these are possible options in such situation and i favor the odds of a large, 8-9 ton 12+ meter tyrannosaurus in this outcome. anything smaller would likely have a bad time.

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I'm assuming a WWD-type scenario where a mother Rex sees anky as a threat to her young. In cases where the female was/may have been larger, this is generally a fairly easy way to get a fight off the ground.


no issue with this. big fan of wwd and see no problem with this hypothetical senerio. though, the anylosaurus in the documentary is way oversized.
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LionClaws
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I now think that I need to see some kind of diagram in order to understand your suggestion. Are you saying that Rex is too high for the tail to reach, and can thus come down from above? Because I seriously doubt that.

Constant circling probably wouldn't be useful against an opponent that can match your every move.

I've seen some of Ausar's suggestions on agility, and find them somewhat wanting.
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spinosaurus rex
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Quote:
 
Are you saying that Rex is too high for the tail to reach, and can thus come down from above? Because I seriously doubt that


ankylosaur tails actually are not that flexible in the vertical plane.
ankylosaur tails

they can swing their tails to nearly 100 degrees laterally, but the Caudal vertebrae have very limited flexion for dorsoventral motions. no hard number is given though, but it is a subject brought up. a large enough tyrannosaurus can potentially exploit this.

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I now think that I need to see some kind of diagram in order to understand your suggestion


i might try to conjure up something just for this point. would take a while though. it would be interesting to see the results. as of now, i can see that trying to describe to you of what i see is a mute point atm

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Constant circling probably wouldn't be useful against an opponent that can match your every move


which is why with a large enough tyrannosaur, i believe it can take the risk and initiate the attack and possible come out either unscathed if really lucky or with non- lethal trauma if lucky.


i had a buddy of mine make a comparison between the largest ankylosaurus specimen compared to sue. he used his own representation of sue, but the measurements still matches sue skeletal, though i did ask him to make another that compares the ankylosaurus here with sues skeletal, but he'll need more time for that. in the meantime this will do.

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he did it here it is compared to the skeletal
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Edited by spinosaurus rex, Sep 27 2016, 01:22 PM.
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LionClaws
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If Rex approaches at an angle, turns her torso, and brings her head down to bite Anky from the side, the torso is exposed to the tail, which probably ends badly for the theropod, and that's assuming Anky constantly aims for the center of mass and isn't hardwired to track the head. If Anky is hardwired to track the head, then in order for Rex to bite him, she has to expose her head to an impact more or less equivalent to that a projectile from a medium-sized siege weapon.
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spinosaurus rex
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let me start off by saying that sue is not confirmed to be a she and odds are, . just refer to the theropod by it's assigned skeletal designation or just "it"

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brings her head down to bite Anky from the side, the torso is exposed to the tail, which probably ends badly for the theropod

no, if lucky the ankylosaurus would only be able to hit the ankles in that senerio. ankylosaurus likely does not have the Caudal flexibility to reach a large tyrannosaurs torso. the torso is meters above ankylosaurus body. i posted an abstract on ankylosaurus tail flexibility in my prior post and vertical motions were not its strong suit. with that in mind, it can just as easily be called out that a large enough theropod would have the necessary body length and height to cut in within the ankylosaurus turn and bite the sides. these are two possible outcomes


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If Anky is hardwired to track the head, then in order for Rex to bite him, she has to expose her head to an impact more or less equivalent to that a projectile from a medium-sized siege weapon

or, the tyrannosaurs manages to clear said tail by having it's head above it's striking range untill a proper moment can be exploited. i'll come off the back and say that i don't see any reason to be thinking that this 5 ton animal turning in ways that makes it completely impervious from a large tyrannosaurus on clamping down with the brute force of of a full grown African bush elephant standing on 60 railroad spikes onto it's sides. ankylosaurus were rather stiff in every section of the body aside from the tail and neck. what it can do is accomplish quick pivoting motions i believe that tyrannosaurus irl would continue this circling act untill such a moment can be attempted in which case only odds will tell




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Soopairik
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First, the Rex needs to get past the swinging tail. If it gets past the tail, it should be smooth sailing from there. But I don't think it has a good chance of passing the tail.
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Spartan
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https://www.researchgate.net/publication/320349340_Unusual_cranial_and_postcranial_anatomy_in_the_archetypal_ankylosaur_Ankylosaurus_magniventris

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To calculate the mass of Ankylosaurus, we used the QE function in the MASSTIMATE v. 1.3 package of Campione (2016) in R version 3.2.3 (R Core Team 2015). This package estimates body mass from combined stylopodial shaft circumferences using a scaling equation described by Campione and Evans (2012). For AMNH 5214, the smallest known Ankylosaurus (humeral shaft circumference = 315 mm, femoral shaft circumference = 363 mm), the estimated mass is 4.78 ± 1.22 t. For comparison, the estimated mass of AMNH 5404, a large specimen of Euoplocephalus (humeral shaft circumference = 244 mm, femoral shaft circumference = 278 mm), is 2.33 ± 0.60 t. Thus, Ankylosaurus appears to have been a substantially bulkier animal, even if its total body length did not greatly exceed those of its closest relatives (which is consistent with standard allometric scaling relationships of the vertebrate skeleton).

How heavy was the largest known Ankylosaurus, CMN 8880? With only an isolated skull available, it is difficult to be certain. However, it is possible to hazard a first approximation by isometrically scaling up stylopodial shaft circumferences from AMNH 5214 using width between the supraorbitals as a common reference. (Stylopodial shaft circumference very likely scaled allometrically in the genus, but there are too few specimens to determine a scaling coefficient.) In this way, we estimate that CMN 8880 might have weighed approximately 7.95 ± 2.04 t—about as massive as a large male African elephant (Loxodonta africana) (Colbert 1993)—but these values must obviously be regarded with due scepticism. Other published mass estimates for Ankylosaurus (Paul 1997), presumably using the smaller and more complete AMNH 5214 as reference, place the animal at approximately 6 t, although methodological details in these studies are lacking. Seebacher (2001) estimated a mass of just ∼1.7 t using his polynomial technique, which strikes us as excessively small for an animal of otherwise elephantine proportions.


If this is accurate I give this comfortably to Ankylosaurus, even against something like Sue or Trix.


Edited by Spartan, Nov 24 2017, 02:33 AM.
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blaze
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I have yet to verify if Greg Paul's skeletal fits 100% the actual measurements but I made a GDI of its skeletal a while back and it came out not much over 5 tonnes for the largest specimen.

Which means that, unless Paul's skeletal needs serious update, Ankylosaurus is like Dreadnoughtus in having limb bones way more robust than expected for its actual overall body dimensions.
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Spartan
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Wasn't that without its armour, though? How much do you think would it add?
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