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Giganotosaurus carolinii v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Jan 31 2012, 05:48 PM (110,326 Views)
Taipan
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Giganotosaurus carolinii
Giganotosaurus ("giant southern lizard"), was a carcharodontosaurid dinosaur that lived 93 to 89 million years ago during the Turonian stage of the Late Cretaceous period. It is one of the longest known terrestrial carnivores, bigger than Tyrannosaurus, but in length and weight, smaller than Spinosaurus. Although longer than T. rex, G. carolinii was lighter and had a much smaller braincase that was the size and shape of a banana. A well-developed olfactory region means it probably had a good sense of smell. Titanosaur fossils have been recovered near the remains of Giganotosaurus, leading to speculation that these carnivores may have preyed on the giant herbivores. Fossils of related carcharodontosaurid fossils grouped closely together may indicate pack hunting, a behavior that could possibly extend to Giganotosaurus itself. he holotype specimen's (MUCPv-Ch1) skeleton was about 70% complete and included parts of the skull, a lower jaw, pelvis, hindlimbs and most of the backbone. The premaxillae, jugals, quadratojugals, the back of the lower jaws and the forelimbs are missing. Various estimates find that it measured somewhere between 12.2 and 13 m (40 and 43 ft) in length, and between 6.5 and 13.3 tons in weight. A second, more fragmentary, specimen (MUCPv-95) has also been identified, found in 1987 by Jorge Calvo. It is only known from the front part of the left dentary which is 8% larger than the equivalent bone from the holotype. This largest Giganotosaurus specimen is estimated to represent an individual with a skull length of 195 cm (6.40 ft), compared to the holotype's estimated at 1.80 m (5.9 ft) skull, making it likely that Giganotosaurus had the largest skull of any known theropod. Giganotosaurus surpassed Tyrannosaurus in mass by at least half a ton (the upper size estimate for T. rex is 9.1 t). Additionally several single teeth, discovered from 1987 onwards, have been referred to the species.

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Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago. It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

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Prehistoric Cat
Jan 31 2012, 04:53 PM
Giganotosaurus VS Tyrannosaurus
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Ausar
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Snow Leopard
 
I can see a couple of fanboys in the two posts above me...
Accuses people of favoritism.

Thinks Giganotosaurus will win 80% of the time.

Ironic situation is ironic.
Edited by Ausar, Feb 17 2016, 11:36 AM.
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Ceratodromeus
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there's no need for name calling.

Ausar, perhaps he means longer skull= longer reach. though imo this argument doesn't go very far
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DarkGricer
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Snow Leopard
Feb 17 2016, 11:13 AM
I can see a couple of fanboys in the two posts above me...
Fanboy-ism has nothing to do with what they are saying. Both combatants are pretty much equal in size as far as we can tell. And even if they were not, it's unlikely that either contestant would have a win rate above 60%. Believe me, Giganotosaurus is my all time favorite dinosaur, so it's not like I'm trying to downplay it.
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LordMax2222
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Blanco and Mazzetta (2001) estimated that for Giganotosaurus a growing imbalance when increasing its velocity would pose an upper limit of 14 metres per second (50 km/h; 31 mph) to its running speed, after which minimal stability would have been lost.- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giganotosaurus
Tyrannosaurus rex could have reached speeds of 18 miles per hour (29 km/h).- www.livescience.com/9519-rex-outrun-humans.html
Not the best sources, but first ones that popped up.
It also has a longer neck and skull http://www.mrugala.net/Nature/Animaux/Dinosaures/Giganotosaurus%20&%20Tyrannosaurus%20(02).jpg This is from you forums. Wouldn't have made a huge difference but still enough to get a first bite in most of the time.
Snow leopard, you said gigonatosaurus would beat spino 95% of the time go fanboy yourself.
Sorry had to replace something else that might have gotten me banned.

Edited by LordMax2222, Feb 18 2016, 02:04 AM.
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Ausar
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LordMax2222
Feb 18 2016, 02:03 AM
Blanco and Mazzetta (2001) estimated that for Giganotosaurus a growing imbalance when increasing its velocity would pose an upper limit of 14 metres per second (50 km/h; 31 mph) to its running speed, after which minimal stability would have been lost.- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giganotosaurus
Tyrannosaurus rex could have reached speeds of 18 miles per hour (29 km/h).- www.livescience.com/9519-rex-outrun-humans.html
Not the best sources, but first ones that popped up.
It also has a longer neck and skull http://www.mrugala.net/Nature/Animaux/Dinosaures/Giganotosaurus%20&%20Tyrannosaurus%20(02).jpg This is from you forums. Wouldn't have made a huge difference but still enough to get a first bite in most of the time.
Snow leopard, you said gigonatosaurus would beat spino 95% of the time go fanboy yourself.
Sorry had to replace something else that might have gotten me banned.

Sorry, but there's no way Tyrannosaurus, a theropod with actual cursorial adaptations, was slower than Giganotosaurus, a theropod with a lack thereof (and by 13 miles per hour at that!). And you know, if I didn't know any better, I would have thought you cherry-picked your sources.

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In examining absolute limb lengths in theropods, it is found that both the tibia and metatarsus increase as femur length increases. These elements both grow with negative allometry (allometric slopes of 0.91 and 0.93 when the log of tibia length or log metatarsal III length are plotted against log femur length, respectively), so that as femur size increases, the relative size of the tibia and metatarsus decreases. This phenomenon is common to many groups of animals, including ungulate, carniverous [sic], and marsupial mammals, and many groups of flightless birds (Holtz, 1995). For a given femur length, however, tyrannosaurids and ornithomimids have a longer absolute (and thus relative) tibia and metatarsus length than those of other theropods.

In other words, for a given femur length, tyrannosaurids have a longer distal limb length than those of most other theropods. Similarly, tyrannosaurids and ornithomimids of the same femur length have comparable tibia and metatarsus lengths. Thus, for a given angle of motion of the femur, a tyrannosaur could cover more distance than an allosauroid, ceratosaur, or other large-bodied theropod of the same femur length. Because distance covered per unit of time is the definition of speed, all other things being equal, tyrannosaurids should have been faster than any other comparably-sized theropod.
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The arctometatarsus is a modified metatarsal form that has been linked to fast linear locomotion and enhanced agility.
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Energy was transferred from the wedge-like middle metatarsal to the outer elements of the foot, where it was absorbed by ligaments, functionally unifying the metapodials and thus reducing loads on the middle metatarsal during locomotion (Snively & Russell 2002: p. 40). The Tyrannosauroid ilium is very long, often exceeding the femur length (Holtz 2004: p. 124) and the thigh muscles were massive (Hutchinson et al. 2011: p. 14).
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Tracy L. Ford
 
Fact, Tyrannosaurs rex's ilia are tightly oppressed, almost to a point where the sacral neural spines are crushed, more than any other theropod; meaning large muscles. Giganotosaurus doesn't have this. The cnemial crest on the tibia is HUGE. If the animal didn't move fast why have such a huge cnemial crest?
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I'd also like to state that I think it's HIGHLY unlikely that Giganotosaurus could move at speeds of up to 31 miles per hour. Somewhere between the speed of Tyrannosaurus and an equivalent sized elephant (though closer to its fellow theropod) is about right.
Particularly fast, subadult Asian elephant bulls have been reliably clocked at up to 6.8 meters per second (a little over 15mph), and so a 6,000 kilogram elephant in the size range of an adult Tyrannosaurus or Giganotosaurus would be a lot slower than that.

But, as I said before, not that speed really matters in a situation like this.

As for the longer neck/skull, that's an outdated image. This comparison is more accurate. If there really is a range discrepancy, it's negligible.
Edited by Ausar, Dec 20 2017, 08:47 AM.
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LordMax2222
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giganotosaurus
http://www.livescience.com/24642-giganotosaurus.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3120106/Usain-Bolt-outrun-T-Rex-yes-velociraptors-Jurassic-World-feathers-10-facts-didn-t-know-dinosaurs.html
http://www.livescience.com/9519-rex-outrun-humans.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cursorial elephants seem to have more cursorial adaptations that any large theropods.
http://dinoanimals.pl/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Giganotosaurus-vs-T.-rex-vs-spinosaurus.jpg would still have a longer skull.
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Spartan
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What's posting links to outdated pictures and general wikipedia pages supposed to tell us?
Edited by Spartan, Feb 19 2016, 05:01 AM.
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LordMax2222
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The speed of giganotosaurus
And how is this outdated? It's later that what other people have given
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Spartan
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It says Sue is 4m at the hips, 12.8m long and weighed 5.4-6.8t. All of this is wrong. And why do people bring running speed even up? It's a fight, not a race.
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Ausar
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LordMax2222
Feb 19 2016, 04:13 AM
Oh? Let's look to the literature to see how well supported your claim is.

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Columnar, unflexed legs with inflexible ankles and short feet prevent elephants from reaching a full run, thus limiting them to a top speed of about 25 km/h (Paul 2000; Hutchinson et al. 2003). Elephants are not slow because they are gigantic-even juvenile elephants are no faster than the adults-but because they are anatomically adapted to be slow, a result of having descended from semiaquatic herbivores and living in a world free of gigantic predators. A major portion of the mass of mammalian megaherbivores (sensu Owen-Smith 1988) is concentrated in the plant-fermenting gut. About 10 to 20% of a large, healthy herbivore's mass consists of forage and feces (Robertson-Bullock 1962; Short 1963). Because rhino legs are so short, the small locomotor muscle mass is apparently a large portion of total mass. The limited available data suggest [sic] that elephants do not have large leg muscles (Robertson-Bullock 1962), and their limb anatomy is not able to effectively convert their power into speed.

Adult tyrannosaurids descended from and grew up from fast runners, and they were probably empty-bellied, flexed-limbed predators with mobile ankles that emphasized nonlocomotor weight reduction in favor of expanded leg muscles.
The 1- to 3-tonne Albertosaurus and Daspletosaurus had much longer, more distally gracile, birdlike legs than similar-sized rhinos, and they were the most speed adapted tetrapods in their size class. It is improbable that they were slower, and may have been actually faster, than rhinos. T. bataar and T. rex were only two or three times heavier than Albertosaurus and Daspletosaurus, and they possessed the same ratitelike running adaptations. Hence, the speed potential of giant tyrannosaurids was not lower than [that of] their lesser relatives on a morphological basis, and they were uniquely speed adapted for their size class. The anatomy of T. rex was adapted to exploit the maximum practical power production of its enormous leg muscles, weighing between 1.2 and 2.4 tonnes, to produce speed. There is simply no comparison between the locomotor apparatus of the similar-sized giants.
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Big gallopers today possess strong knee muscles that attach to the kneecap and shank in such a way that the knee joint opens and closes under tremendous muscular power. A bony ridge, the cnemial (silent c here: "nee-mee-al") crest, marks the point of attachment for the knee tendons, and one can directly gauge the muscle power of a knee from the size of a cnemial crest. Elephants, turtles, and salamanders are all slowpokes in their body-size classes and all have puny knee muscles and low cnemial crests on the shank bone. Rhinos have big cnemial crests, as do other large-bodied gallopers, such as water buffalo, giraffe, bison, and gaur. Big crests would also mean big calf muscles. All dinosaurs had bigger cnemial crests than do elephants, even those groups with relatively straight hind legs—the giant horned dinosaurs, stegosaurs, and brontosaurs. When these systems of oversized knee muscles contracted, the power exerted on the hind paw would have had no equal today. The biggest meat-eater, three ton-plus Tyrannosaurus, had an absolutely huge cnemial crest, even by dinosaurian standards.


Elephants are graviportal, which means that everything about their appendicular anatomy is designed for weight bearing. As a trade-off, they are lack a lot of fundamental traits associated with fast running. It's clear from the literature I cited above that even the giant theropods are more adapted for running than elephants are. So...you're clearly talking out of your ass.

As I said before, there is no way a cursorial giant theropod will be slower than a (seemingly) subcursorial giant theropod. Don't pretend the scholarly sources I've cited haven't proven you wrong by posting random links.

As for the relevance of speed in this topic and the size comparison you posted: I and/or Spartan already addressed those.
Edited by Ausar, Dec 20 2017, 08:49 AM.
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LordMax2222
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An average trex was that large, and yes we are of topic
I know tyrannosaurs were faster but cursorial adaptations mostly mean relatively smaller feet, less digits, more bendable spine basically more horse like
Also I believe I have effectively slaughtered every other dinosaur conflict thread
So somthing here deserves a killstreak and I am voting for that somthing
Edited by LordMax2222, Feb 19 2016, 06:05 AM.
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Spartan
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The average T. rex wasn't 4m tall and 12.8m long nor did it weigh below 6t. Your chart also said it was Sue, not some random average T. rex.
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LordMax2222
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Weighed about 6 tons
Lets get back on the topic train
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Ausar
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Quote:
 
I know tyrannosaurs were faster
Then why did we have to get into a discussion about which animal was faster?
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but cursorial adaptations mostly mean relatively smaller feet, less digits, more bendable spine basically more horse like
They also include more elongated and gracile distal limb segments, increased muscle mass in the proximal limb elements, and metatarsals that are better for energy storage, all of which were in the possession of tyrannosaurids. As for the ones you mentioned:


  • proportionally smaller feet: this provides the advantage of smaller contact surface and thus steps in quicker succession. Large theropods in general had pretty small contact surface with the ground.
  • less digits: Tyrannosaurus only has three weight-bearing digits on each foot.
  • vertebral flexibility (namely that in the sagittal plane): doesn't apply to bipeds. The point of vertebral flexibility is to increase effective stride length between the fore- and hindlimbs with extensive flexion and extension of the muscles located in the lumbar region. This makes total sense if you use both the fore- and hindlimbs for locomotion (i.e. if you're a quadruped). When your forelimbs are completely useless for locomotion, what use is this?


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Also I believe I have effectively slaughtered every other dinosaur conflict thread
What do you mean by that?
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So somthing [sic] here deserves a killstreak and I am voting for that somthing [sic]
So, are you saying that you're betting your cash on Giganotosaurus because it "deserves a killstreak" in the topics of this subforum?
Edited by Ausar, Aug 29 2016, 01:22 AM.
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LordMax2222
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I mean that I know trex was faster than an elephant and 90% of the time I reply to anything here nobody ever comments on it again. Also would make sense if you'd played CoD.
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