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Giganotosaurus carolinii v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Jan 31 2012, 05:48 PM (110,325 Views)
Taipan
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Giganotosaurus carolinii
Giganotosaurus ("giant southern lizard"), was a carcharodontosaurid dinosaur that lived 93 to 89 million years ago during the Turonian stage of the Late Cretaceous period. It is one of the longest known terrestrial carnivores, bigger than Tyrannosaurus, but in length and weight, smaller than Spinosaurus. Although longer than T. rex, G. carolinii was lighter and had a much smaller braincase that was the size and shape of a banana. A well-developed olfactory region means it probably had a good sense of smell. Titanosaur fossils have been recovered near the remains of Giganotosaurus, leading to speculation that these carnivores may have preyed on the giant herbivores. Fossils of related carcharodontosaurid fossils grouped closely together may indicate pack hunting, a behavior that could possibly extend to Giganotosaurus itself. he holotype specimen's (MUCPv-Ch1) skeleton was about 70% complete and included parts of the skull, a lower jaw, pelvis, hindlimbs and most of the backbone. The premaxillae, jugals, quadratojugals, the back of the lower jaws and the forelimbs are missing. Various estimates find that it measured somewhere between 12.2 and 13 m (40 and 43 ft) in length, and between 6.5 and 13.3 tons in weight. A second, more fragmentary, specimen (MUCPv-95) has also been identified, found in 1987 by Jorge Calvo. It is only known from the front part of the left dentary which is 8% larger than the equivalent bone from the holotype. This largest Giganotosaurus specimen is estimated to represent an individual with a skull length of 195 cm (6.40 ft), compared to the holotype's estimated at 1.80 m (5.9 ft) skull, making it likely that Giganotosaurus had the largest skull of any known theropod. Giganotosaurus surpassed Tyrannosaurus in mass by at least half a ton (the upper size estimate for T. rex is 9.1 t). Additionally several single teeth, discovered from 1987 onwards, have been referred to the species.

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Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago. It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

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Prehistoric Cat
Jan 31 2012, 04:53 PM
Giganotosaurus VS Tyrannosaurus
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Ausar
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LordMax2222
 
I mean that I know trex [sic] was faster than an elephant and 90% of the time I reply to anything here nobody ever comments on it again. Also would make sense if you'd played CoD.
Then what was your statement that elephants had more cursorial adaptations than mega theropods did all about?
Ceratodromeus
 
To better show the point illustrated by theropod, hers a monitor lizard bite on a humans hand:
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I believe this was a crocodile monitor bite. Note how deep the wound is
Lace monitor bite:
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Obviously, these monitor are no where near where the weight of the human. Yet the damage caused by their bites were detrimental.
Looking at an Argentine tegu's bite on a human hand now:
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Worth noting that all three lizard species are roughly the same size at averages, note the difference?
Typically, animals with a crushing bite need to get their jaws around something small in order to break bone. Can you present evidence of animals with crushing dentition killing similarly sized animals with a singular bite? Please don't use the "no modern animals are built like T.rex" excuse, because there are no animals built like G. Carolinii today either. This kind of argument is entirely circular.
Are you seriously implying that the effects of an Argentine black & white tegu's bite on a larger animal would be roughly analogous to those of a Tyrannosaurus rex? Why don't you take a look at actual macropredators with raptorial puncturing/crushing dentition just like that of Tyrannosaurus, like the spotted hyena?

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And that's ignoring the fact that, unlike Tyrannosaurus rex, Crocuta crocuta lacks serrated carinae on its teeth and has a far shorter toothrow usable for actually killing other animals.

As for crushing-toothed animals killing similar-sized animals with a single bite:

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Typically, wolves that are killed in fights are not torn to shreds.

“They’re not all ripped apart, but if you skin them there’s all kinds of hemorrhaging (from bite marks),” Meier said.

Both Meier and Grangaard have found dead wolves with teeth holes in their skulls as a result of fights. Nearly all the male wolves Grangaard has found dead from fights have holes in their skulls from canine teeth.

“It’s always just one bite in the head and a skull fracture,”
he said. “There ain’t no bite marks on the necks or shoulders.
link

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(Granted, I don't know how large the caiman's killer was compared to it, but the caiman at least LOOKS mature).

These are all skull bites as you can see. And all of these bitten-through skulls are the solidly-constructed skulls of macrophagous crocodilians and mammals. This is in contrast to the not-so-solidly-built skulls most predatory theropods tended to have, Giganotosaurus among them; imagine what a Tyrannosaurus' bite would do to it.

theropod
 
The tyrannosaurid arctometatarsus is clearly an adaption for cursoriality, with the third metatarsal pinched between the other two, functionally unifying the structure when loaded (Snively & Russell 2002). The metatarsals of carnosaurs are not so-constrained in their movement, and would do a much better job at gripping, pinning and controlling prey.
I've seen the tyrannosaurid arctometatarsus described as "tightly locked". If anything, shouldn't that help in dealing with forces from pinned down prey and make the more kinetic, more autonomous metatarsals of an anarcometatarsalian theropod at greater risk of mechanical failure? The fact that Tyrannosaurus' metatarsals weren't absurdly long and gracile like those of much smaller cursorial theropods (its great size certainly has something to do with this) should help with this.
Edited by Ausar, Feb 2 2017, 11:30 AM.
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Ragnarr
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Back then, when Giganotosaurus was seen as a behemoth with a 2 meters long skull and a body mass up to 20-30% superior to the largest Tyrannosaurus, I would have favored it without a doubt.

But such data appeared to have been poorly supported in later works.
Tyrannosaurus still represents the heaviest (yes by a small margin) theropod and the most powerfully built with its barrel-shaped torso.
Not to mention the volume of its jaws, I doubt any carcharodontosaurid known has a head as heavy as Tyrannosaurus. And the infamous power of its bite.

However, the horrific slashing bite of Giganotosaurus would let severe damages on the tyrant even victorious.
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moldovan0731
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Megafelis Fatalis
Jan 31 2012, 06:38 PM
Giganotosaurus wins 65% IMO
It was larger than Tyrannosaurus, at parity Tyrannosaurus wins 60% IMO.

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The largest known Tyrannosaurus rex skulls measure up to 5 feet (1.5 m) in length.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrannosaurus#Description



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This largest Giganotosaurus specimen is estimated to represent an individual with a skull length of 195 cm (6.40 ft).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giganotosaurus#Description



I made some changes, This one is more Accurate
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Hi! I know know the 195 cm figure is outdated for the skull of Giganotosaurus, but this picture is correct if we say the skull of Giganotosaurus is 195 cm long in the picture, and if I wanted the T. rex skull to be 145 cm long: http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/dinosaur-home/images/2/27/Gigatrex.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20160626095423 ?
Edited by moldovan0731, May 20 2017, 07:32 PM.
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Gyirin
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What is the best modern analogue for the T.rex. I was thinking Brown bear but..
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Black Panther
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Maybe hyena, they both have bone crushing bites, bulky builds, and fairly unusable arms.

For giga maybe a moniter lizard due to the thin blade like and serrated teeth and arms with large claws, and slightly more useable arms.

As for the fight I say it's a 50/50. The giga is more agile and has a much wider gape that can bute most places on rex. But the t.rex is bulkier and stronger and could inflict huge wounds in snaller parts of giga like the head or neck.
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Thalassophoneus
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Saurophaganax1
Jun 27 2016, 12:00 AM
As for the fight I say it's a 50/50. The giga is more agile and has a much wider gape that can bute most places on rex. But the t.rex is bulkier and stronger and could inflict huge wounds in snaller parts of giga like the head or neck.
I just came here so I don't know if you discussed about this matter previously in the thread, but I'm not sure that any of this is true.
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Black Ice
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I honestly see this something like Komodo Dragon vs Hyena.
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Black Panther
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I agree with black ice.

Thasslo, it's all true actually. Giga was a sauropod killer like most carnosaurs and had to have a larger gape to get a bigger bite while t.rex hunted "smaller" prey abd didn't need as large of a gape, along with the fact that animals with weaker bites seem to have larger gapes than their stronger bite counterparts(with odvious exeptions of course). And guga is lighter built so it is almost certainly more agile.
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Spartan
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T. rex gape isn't much smaller. The differences between a spotted hyena and a komodo dragon are much bigger than the differences between T. rex and Giganotosaurus.
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Black Panther
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The hyena also doesn't have 60 bone crushing railroad spike teeth and the Komodo dragon isn't a biped so the analogy is the best we got but not perfect.
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Thalassophoneus
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Saurophaganax1
Jun 27 2016, 01:58 AM
The hyena also doesn't have 60 bone crushing railroad spike teeth and the Komodo dragon isn't a biped so the analogy is the best we got but not perfect.
The main reason why this analogy isn't good is that those two animals are random and completely unrelated to each other.
Saurophaganax1
Jun 27 2016, 01:34 AM
I agree with black ice.

Thasslo, it's all true actually. Giga was a sauropod killer like most carnosaurs and had to have a larger gape to get a bigger bite while t.rex hunted "smaller" prey abd didn't need as large of a gape, along with the fact that animals with weaker bites seem to have larger gapes than their stronger bite counterparts(with odvious exeptions of course). And guga is lighter built so it is almost certainly more agile.
Also how do you know that Giganotosaurus was more lightly built? From what we know it was about as bulky as Tyrannosaurus. And you cannot determine whether it had a wider gape from whether it was a sauropod killer. An extinct animal's habits are judged from its morphology, not the opposite.
Edited by Thalassophoneus, Jun 27 2016, 02:38 AM.
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Black Ice
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Judging by that logic morphologically Panda Bears are powerful predators.
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Black Panther
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How about you take a gander at their skeletons. Skeletals done by Scott Hartman.

I don't say giga is weak or anything, just a bit less bulky.
Black ice who are you talking to?
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Edited by Black Panther, Jun 27 2016, 06:47 AM.
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Ausar
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Black Ice
Jun 27 2016, 05:58 AM
Judging by that logic morphologically Panda Bears are powerful predators.
A guy who knows what he's talking about should be able to deduce pandas for what they really are, even going by morphology. For example, he'd be able to recognize that the panda's reduced and not very sharp canines are more suggestive of herbivory than raptorial tendencies, and that the powerfully-built skull, large room for jaw muscles, and the morphology of the postcanine teeth suggest the consumption of tough plant matter. He may also note that the large gut region is also indicative of herbivory.

Even animals that look superficially suited for one lifestyle have to be morphologically designed for the one they truly live.
Edited by Ausar, Jun 30 2016, 08:31 AM.
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Thalassophoneus
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But did Giganotosaurus indeed have a huge gape?
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