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| Giganotosaurus carolinii v Tyrannosaurus rex | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 31 2012, 05:48 PM (110,322 Views) | |
| Taipan | Jan 31 2012, 05:48 PM Post #1 |
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Giganotosaurus carolinii Giganotosaurus ("giant southern lizard"), was a carcharodontosaurid dinosaur that lived 93 to 89 million years ago during the Turonian stage of the Late Cretaceous period. It is one of the longest known terrestrial carnivores, bigger than Tyrannosaurus, but in length and weight, smaller than Spinosaurus. Although longer than T. rex, G. carolinii was lighter and had a much smaller braincase that was the size and shape of a banana. A well-developed olfactory region means it probably had a good sense of smell. Titanosaur fossils have been recovered near the remains of Giganotosaurus, leading to speculation that these carnivores may have preyed on the giant herbivores. Fossils of related carcharodontosaurid fossils grouped closely together may indicate pack hunting, a behavior that could possibly extend to Giganotosaurus itself. he holotype specimen's (MUCPv-Ch1) skeleton was about 70% complete and included parts of the skull, a lower jaw, pelvis, hindlimbs and most of the backbone. The premaxillae, jugals, quadratojugals, the back of the lower jaws and the forelimbs are missing. Various estimates find that it measured somewhere between 12.2 and 13 m (40 and 43 ft) in length, and between 6.5 and 13.3 tons in weight. A second, more fragmentary, specimen (MUCPv-95) has also been identified, found in 1987 by Jorge Calvo. It is only known from the front part of the left dentary which is 8% larger than the equivalent bone from the holotype. This largest Giganotosaurus specimen is estimated to represent an individual with a skull length of 195 cm (6.40 ft), compared to the holotype's estimated at 1.80 m (5.9 ft) skull, making it likely that Giganotosaurus had the largest skull of any known theropod. Giganotosaurus surpassed Tyrannosaurus in mass by at least half a ton (the upper size estimate for T. rex is 9.1 t). Additionally several single teeth, discovered from 1987 onwards, have been referred to the species. ![]() Tyrannosaurus rex Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago. It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes. ![]() ______________________________________________________________________________
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| HyperNova | Jul 28 2016, 10:45 AM Post #496 |
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Wild Animals Enthusiast
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What about mouth grappling capability? At weight parity, who would have the stronger neck and the more suited jaws for holding on struggling preys? |
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| Carcharadon | Jul 28 2016, 11:05 AM Post #497 |
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Shark Toothed Reptile
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^ 600 lb bite force komodo |
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| Ausar | Jul 28 2016, 11:35 AM Post #498 |
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Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can!
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First things first, I want to address the 600 pound bite force thing. In the video posted, the man says "600 pounds per square inch", which is a unit of pressure. I know you can determine actual force with a bit of simple math (pressure=force/area, thus force=pressure*area), but I don't think we know the 'area' part of the equation and therefore I don't think we know what the actual bite force is. Secondly, how heavy would a 40 foot ora be? If it's substantially heavier than a theropod of the same length, then a hypothetical 40 foot Komodo dragon wouldn't really say much about how hard a theropod that length could bite, as an animal not specialized for biting hard can still bite as hard, if not harder, than one that actually is if the former is sufficiently larger than the latter. Thirdly, I believe that superior mechanical advantage (btw, exactly how much of an advantage do carcharodontosaurs apparently have over Tyrannosaurus? Is it significant or insignificant?) can be overcome if the animal with inferior mechanical advantage has sufficiently stronger jaw adductors than the animal with superior mechanical advantage. It's to my understanding that tyrannosaurids had much more room for jaw adductors than other predatory theropods did. This, coupled with the fact that Tyrannosaurus seems to otherwise be much more adapted for biting hard than Giganotosaurus (I mean, it's got a more solidly-constructed skull and dental morphology ideally suited for withstanding high bite forces), leads me to believe that the tyrannosaur is going to bite harder. Tyrannosaurus definitely has the "mouth grappling" advantage. It's the one with a very solidly-constructed skull that's actually designed to withstand the forces incurred from violently struggling animals caught in the jaws, the more incrassate teeth that are a) designed to take stress from all directions b) more deeply rooted than those of typical theropods and c) have more obtuse and thus blunter edges that won't slice through flesh as easily and make it lose its grip, and a significantly stronger bite that would give its jaws a tighter grip. Edited by Ausar, Jul 28 2016, 11:56 AM.
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| HyperNova | Jul 28 2016, 12:24 PM Post #499 |
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Wild Animals Enthusiast
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Does t-rex had serreted teeths? |
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| LeonardosHeir | Jul 28 2016, 12:29 PM Post #500 |
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Herbivore
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Does the Giganotosaurus have a bigger bite? This photo dosent exactly explain it very well. Edited by LeonardosHeir, Jul 28 2016, 12:30 PM.
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| TheROC | Jul 28 2016, 01:51 PM Post #501 |
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Herbivore
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-No. It was not actually 600 lbs 'per square inch'. That same guy measured croc bite forces using the same units. 'Per square inch' is just a common miss-usage for total bite force recordings that still happens on tv for some reason. It was a Lbs of force rating. Afterall, he directly reference it being about 5 times more than a human bite force, which we know is in the low 100 lbs of force. So yes, it was a Lbs of force reading. -A 40 foot Komodo would be about 8 tons. So within the same range as a theropod. On top of this, komodo dragons have a tiny skull relative to their lengths compared to carcharodontosaurs. -If I recall correctly, the mechanical advantage was significantly higher in the back of the tooth row for the Carcharodontosaurus than the T.Rex. In the front of the tooth row the difference was more moderate but I believe it still had the advantage there too. I will double check. Mechanical advantage isn't the be-all-end all obviously. A lion has a better mechanical advantage along its tooth row than a crocodile, but the crocodile makes up for it with sheer musculature. Giant theropod musculature isn't going to vary as much as the difference between a lion and a crocodile of course. Those animals are built much differently from each other. Again, my statement was simply that it would not surprise me if Giga could bite comparably as hard at equal weights. At equal weights, it skull would tend to be bigger from my recollection. I should still have a pdf of the study from Dr. Sakamoto. If anyone wants it please PM me your email and I will send it. Edited by TheROC, Jul 28 2016, 01:56 PM.
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| bone crusher | Jul 28 2016, 07:34 PM Post #502 |
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Heterotrophic Organism
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I'm not saying this should strictly play out like a wrestling match, they're both trying to kill each other as quickly as possible so they'll do it by any means necessary. And having a stronger build would definitely help to overpower your enemy such as knocking it down or wrestling it down first and deliver that final blow. Giga could nip, slash all it wants to the sides of t-rex but what good is it if you ultimately fail at reaching that critical bite? T-rex is gonna be the first one to get that critical hit more often than not by using its superior strength while sustaining bites from giga along the way. Priority folks, it's really that simple. Apart from the obvious difference in jaws mechanics, t-rex simply is superior physically and that's the key factor in its victory. I'm not saying it's a 20/80 slaughter but more of a tangible advantage so 40/60 or 45/55 at weight parity. |
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| Black Panther | Jul 28 2016, 07:58 PM Post #503 |
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Omnivore
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"Giga could nip, slash all it wants to the sides of t-rex but what good is it if you ultimately fail at reaching that Critical bite" generally when you wrestle something down you are in very close contact with your opponent, and that's when the giga will get to place it's critical bite. It will surely get more then a "nip" when this is happening, added to the fact that it has 5 foot jaws and is fighting for it's life. A single bite from a giga would easily be just as deadly as a T.rex's bite.
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| bone crusher | Jul 28 2016, 08:21 PM Post #504 |
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Heterotrophic Organism
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Er not necessarily. By pinning it down basically you put a foot on your opponent's head so that you're restraining the head from moving about while you're going for a neck bite. Not to mention when you're pinned down your head movement would be very limited thus your bite wouldn't be nearly as effective as in optimal head position. See a predator always try to avoid dangers such as horns and hooves when the prey is subdued, sure their heads are in close proximity but when was the last time a downed buffalo was able to gore a lion when the latter was performing a throat bite? Look I don't doubt Giga's bite is super effective at killing but the whole point of t-rex subduing giga to the ground is to avoid the bite while delivering its own bone crunching bite. Edited by bone crusher, Jul 28 2016, 08:23 PM.
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| Black Panther | Jul 28 2016, 09:11 PM Post #505 |
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Omnivore
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Why should the giga just be pushed to the ground so quickly? It's a very large and powerful animal as well. It's not going to just fall over. It's going to bite whatever it can and most likely that's going to be the skull, and when it bites the skull it will tear up all the tendins and tissue in the facial regions and lacerate jaw muscule attachments and probably take out an eye. Point is, that the giga won't be pushed down nearly as easily as you make it seem. And don't conpare a herbivore to a carnivore. A water buffalo is not a giganotosaurus and besides, getting a bite in on something that is biting your neck is a whole lot easier and more effective then trying to gore the animal. Why couldn't the giga just kick if it is in the ground? The t.rex is pinning it down and biting it's throat. it will kick that thrash as if it's life depends on it, because it does. A kick from the giga would be incredibly powerful and damaging due to its muscular legs and three huge toe claws. Those small but very powerful arms will come in handy and will do work in the tyrannosaur's neck and jaw once they find the mark. Edited by Black Panther, Jul 28 2016, 09:15 PM.
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| Spartan | Jul 28 2016, 09:25 PM Post #506 |
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Kleptoparasite
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What's with this study? http://www.pnas.org/content/106/22/8969.full
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| Ceratodromeus | Jul 28 2016, 09:37 PM Post #507 |
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Aspiring herpetologist
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so apparently you don't need to be in close proximity to wrestle something down, because you know that makes so much sense. @Spartan, what do you mean whats with the study? |
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| bone crusher | Jul 28 2016, 09:38 PM Post #508 |
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Heterotrophic Organism
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Never said it could pin giga down so easily, but t-rex does have the edge in strength here. I'm sure giga would struggle once it's down on the ground but a downed theropod is always at a disadvantage than a stood up one. The whole point is t-rex has more advantages thus increasing the chance of winning. |
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| Spartan | Jul 28 2016, 09:47 PM Post #509 |
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Kleptoparasite
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Their results are far lower than what was measured in the video. If the video is correct and in-vivo measurements in lizards and crocodiles are far higher than what biomechanical studies predict, we could assume the same for theropods, so comparing the predicted bite force for T. rex with the actual measured bite force of a komodo dragon is rather misleading. Biomechanical studies have estimated the bite force of T. rex to be higher than that of a similar sized Allosaurus. |
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| Black Panther | Jul 28 2016, 09:50 PM Post #510 |
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Omnivore
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I just don't know why you think the giga won't bite the rex. It WILL. The rex will have to get close if it wants to wrestle the giganotosaurs to the ground. It's just joe it works, They have to be in close physical contact. In which the giga will bite the t.rex multiple times with each bite creating more and more bloodloss, shock, and injuries. A theropod thrashing around biting, slashing with its claws and kicking frantically will break loose from the grip, that is if the tyrannosaur could even bring down the giga in a quick enough time. |
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generally when you wrestle something down you are in very close contact with your opponent, and that's when the giga will get to place it's critical bite. It will surely get more then a "nip" when this is happening, added to the fact that it has 5 foot jaws and is fighting for it's life. A single bite from a giga would easily be just as deadly as a T.rex's bite.

2:24 AM Jul 14