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Giganotosaurus carolinii v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Jan 31 2012, 05:48 PM (110,319 Views)
Taipan
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Giganotosaurus carolinii
Giganotosaurus ("giant southern lizard"), was a carcharodontosaurid dinosaur that lived 93 to 89 million years ago during the Turonian stage of the Late Cretaceous period. It is one of the longest known terrestrial carnivores, bigger than Tyrannosaurus, but in length and weight, smaller than Spinosaurus. Although longer than T. rex, G. carolinii was lighter and had a much smaller braincase that was the size and shape of a banana. A well-developed olfactory region means it probably had a good sense of smell. Titanosaur fossils have been recovered near the remains of Giganotosaurus, leading to speculation that these carnivores may have preyed on the giant herbivores. Fossils of related carcharodontosaurid fossils grouped closely together may indicate pack hunting, a behavior that could possibly extend to Giganotosaurus itself. he holotype specimen's (MUCPv-Ch1) skeleton was about 70% complete and included parts of the skull, a lower jaw, pelvis, hindlimbs and most of the backbone. The premaxillae, jugals, quadratojugals, the back of the lower jaws and the forelimbs are missing. Various estimates find that it measured somewhere between 12.2 and 13 m (40 and 43 ft) in length, and between 6.5 and 13.3 tons in weight. A second, more fragmentary, specimen (MUCPv-95) has also been identified, found in 1987 by Jorge Calvo. It is only known from the front part of the left dentary which is 8% larger than the equivalent bone from the holotype. This largest Giganotosaurus specimen is estimated to represent an individual with a skull length of 195 cm (6.40 ft), compared to the holotype's estimated at 1.80 m (5.9 ft) skull, making it likely that Giganotosaurus had the largest skull of any known theropod. Giganotosaurus surpassed Tyrannosaurus in mass by at least half a ton (the upper size estimate for T. rex is 9.1 t). Additionally several single teeth, discovered from 1987 onwards, have been referred to the species.

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Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago. It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

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Prehistoric Cat
Jan 31 2012, 04:53 PM
Giganotosaurus VS Tyrannosaurus
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bone crusher
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Ceratodromeus
Jul 29 2016, 05:44 AM
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Their results are far lower than what was measured in the video.
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OK, you just weren't very clear in your initial post. thanks
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You gotta stop putting words in my mouth man, I only said it would be hard for giga to bite if it's pinned down on the ground,

im not putting words in your mouth and the assertion i have is so laughably ridiculous, i mean its evident you're grasping at straws here with this. c'mon now.
your reply to black panther
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Black Panther
Jul 28 2016, 07:58 PM
"Giga could nip, slash all it wants to the sides of t-rex but what good is it if you ultimately fail at reaching that Critical bite" rolleyes generally when you wrestle something down you are in very close contact with your opponent, and that's when the giga will get to place it's critical bite. It will surely get more then a "nip" when this is happening, added to the fact that it has 5 foot jaws and is fighting for it's life. A single bite from a giga would easily be just as deadly as a T.rex's bite.
Er not necessarily. By pinning it down basically you put a foot on your opponent's head so that you're restraining the head from moving about while you're going for a neck bite. Not to mention when you're pinned down your head movement would be very limited thus your bite wouldn't be nearly as effective as in optimal head position. See a predator always try to avoid dangers such as horns and hooves when the prey is subdued, sure their heads are in close proximity but when was the last time a downed buffalo was able to gore a lion when the latter was performing a throat bite?

But i guess you want to play with being vague and contradicting yourself within your comments so that's nice for you.

at any rate you are rather wrong, there is no "not necessarily" when being in close proximity in wrestling down another animal -- you are always always always going to be in contact with the animal you are trying to get to the ground -- that's an unarguable facet i'm afraid.
I suppose I wasn't being too specific with my comments and I apologize in advance. When I said not being in close proximity I meant the t-rex' throat to giga's mouth. Imagine a scenario when t-rex rams straight into giga's belly and knocks it over, or get under its belly and topples it over. Then t-rex would use a foot to pin the head down and go for a neck bite. T-rex may not succeed every time but there's always one try that it may. Putting superior strength into the equation will tip the odds sooner or later.
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Black Panther
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Theropods didn't and couldn't ram effectively due to there skulls not being adapted for it and the neck having poor structure and resistance need to ram(not saying theropod necks were weak). So unless t.rex wants to knock over giga and break its neck it won't ram. And I don't see how it even could outflank the giga and ram it with out the carnosaur keeping the tyrant in front of it.


EDIT: too many typos.
Edited by Black Panther, Jul 29 2016, 11:43 PM.
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bone crusher
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Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it wont happen in the wild. Many things could happen in a fight scenario, perhaps when giga looses a footing, slips on wet terrain or when stars are aligned for the t-rex. All I'm saying is t-rex has more advantages in its disposal and being stronger is always more ideal in a fight.
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Ausar
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But now you will keep in mind that Tyrannosaurus wasn't designed for ramming things, right?
Edited by Ausar, Jul 29 2016, 10:57 PM.
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Black Panther
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bone crusher
42 minutes ago
Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it wont happen in the wild. Many things could happen in a fight scenario, perhaps when giga looses a footing, slips on wet terrain or when stars are aligned for the t-rex. All I'm saying is t-rex has more advantages in its disposal and being stronger is always more ideal in a fight.

rolleyes you are starting to grasp at straws here. Just cause you don't see something dosent mean it can happen. By your flawed logic the giganotosaus will win cause it can breathe fire, you know, since we don't see them and we don't know for sure. And we do know theropods didn't ram. Just look at the skulls and necks of modern animals that do ram, they are dramatically different! And why should the giga loose its footing ? Why not rex? And this is a fight where there are no outside forces like repoing over a rock. You have not named any advantages for tyrannosaurus that hasn't already been counterd.
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bone crusher
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Well the whole ramming thing was actually portrayed in the docu Dinosaur Revolution, episode 4 where two t-rexes rammed each other both using the skull and the shoulder.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCtZCi-OIBU
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Black Panther
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That documentary is full of inaccuracies. It also depicts a dinherasaurus and an allosaur working together to fight and kill a vastly oversized torvosaurus. Dinosaur Revolution is meant for entertainment. Not true education. And if I recall I don't think they even butt heads or anything even close to that. They just body bumped eachother, which the giga could counter by getting out if the way or biting. It dosent matter since theropod didn't ram. Don't use documentaries as sources.
Edited by Black Panther, Jul 29 2016, 11:54 PM.
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bone crusher
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Black Panther
Jul 29 2016, 11:39 PM
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bone crusher
42 minutes ago
Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it wont happen in the wild. Many things could happen in a fight scenario, perhaps when giga looses a footing, slips on wet terrain or when stars are aligned for the t-rex. All I'm saying is t-rex has more advantages in its disposal and being stronger is always more ideal in a fight.

rolleyes you are starting to grasp at straws here. Just cause you don't see something dosent mean it can happen. By your flawed logic the giganotosaus will win cause it can breathe fire, you know, since we don't see them and we don't know for sure. And we do know theropods didn't ram. Just look at the skulls and necks of modern animals that do ram, they are dramatically different! And why should the giga loose its footing ? Why not rex? And this is a fight where there are no outside forces like repoing over a rock. You have not named any advantages for tyrannosaurus that hasn't already been counterd.
Way to take it out of the context, I was merely stating the fact how tiny variation in a fight could drastically change the outcome such as accidents, unmindful to the surrounding etc, logically speaking, thus creating opportunity for your opponent to succeed. Obviously the stronger foe would have a better chance at harness the opportunity.
And how am I grasping at straw when t-rex is physically stronger, heavier, has the same efficient killing bite if not more and smarter? It just doesn't make sense statistically for it to lose.
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Black Panther
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Way to take it out of the context, I was merely stating the fact how tiny variation in a fight could drastically change the outcome such as accidents, unmindful to the surrounding etc, logically speaking, thus creating opportunity for your opponent to succeed. Obviously the stronger foe would have a better chance at harness the opportunity.
And how am I grasping at straw when t-rex is physically stronger, heavier, has the same efficient killing bite if not more and smarter? It just doesn't make sense statistically for it to lose.


Ok I guess I musunderstood you. It seems like you were using that as a part of your argument. You are grasping for straws by saying its bite could be more effective and its smarter. The bites of both theropodd are vastly different so it's no use even comparing them, added it the fact that both bites are equally deadly and devastating. There is absolutely no proof for a tyrannosaur to have a superior bite to a carnosaur(not talking about bite force) and vice versa. and intellegence. It dosent play a role in a fight. And why would rex be smarter? Cause it evolved slighty later? If that were true modern cows would be ridiculously snarter then any Mesozoic creature, but it's not true. evolution is a tree, not a ladder. Or do you think its smarter because it's brain:body ratio is higher? That's a flawed way of determining intelligence. If ur were true then song birds and monkeys would be far smarter then humans and other creatures renowned for there intellect cause there Brain: body ratio is considerably higher then ours and ither highly intellegent creatures. But they are not(generally).
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bone crusher
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Let's break it down shall we? You keep saying Giga has equally devastating bite, well it's true to an extent. By placing the bite on the throat it could manage to slice it open and kill the rex in that fashion. But where else could it kill the rex in such an efficient way? I can't see any. Whereas for t-rex it can also kill giga by biting on the throat, in which case it simply crushes the throat and puncture right through it. Now the usefulness of a bone crushing bite goes further beyond. By biting on giga's neck it could crush its spine and resulting an instant kill. It could also go for a skull bite for an instant kill just like how jaguar does to its prey. Since Giga's skull is relatively fragile looking and much narrower than rex's I can see it happen.
So I'm saying t-rex's bite could instant or near instant kill giga in multiple ways while giga has only one option.
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Black Panther
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Let's break it down shall we? You keep saying Giga has equally devastating bite, well it's true to an extent. By placing the bite on the throat it could manage to slice it open and kill the rex in that fashion. But where else could it kill the rex in such an efficient way? I can't see any. Whereas for t-rex it can also kill giga by biting on the throat, in which case it simply crushes the throat and puncture right through it. Now the usefulness of a bone crushing bite goes further beyond. By biting on giga's neck it could crush its spine and resulting an instant kill. It could also go for a skull bite for an instant kill just like how jaguar does to its prey. Since Giga's skull is relatively fragile looking and much narrower than rex's I can see it happen.
So I'm saying t-rex's bite could instant or near instant kill giga in multiple ways while giga has only one option.

The giganotosaurus has more then enough jaw strength to break the spinal cord and neck of the rex. A bite to the side would take out huge chunks of flesh and cause immediate and massive bloodloss, it might not kill it instantly but neither will the t.rex bite. So both have multiple ways of killing eachother. I doubt the rex will land a bite on the skull of giga. And most often when biting big bodied beasts having teeth like knives is more effective abd causing damage. Though both wiłl certainly inflict serious wounds.
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bone crusher
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How exactly can giga's thin blade like teeth and non bone crushing jaws break t-rex's neck? The girth of t-rex neck is way thicker and armored by heavily built muscles, giga's teeth aren't even long enough to penetrate to the cord. And why wouldn't t rex land a bite on giga's skull? In fact it's the easiest target to land a bite on since it's a face to face fight. Giga sure has multiple ways of killing the rex but just not as many for instant kill.
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Black Panther
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Gigas jaws are meant to tear through massive amounts of flesh and muscle. And t.rex's neck isn't pure steel, it can and will be broken since the giganotosaurus, despite having a weaker bute still had enough strength to crush the neck. Look at sharks, thre teeth are very thin, shallow rooted, serrated, and recurved and it still can break bone. Why couldn't a carnosaurs? Why would one rex bite to the side Indra kill a giga?
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Ceratodromeus
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Yeah no just because it has blade like dentition doesn't mean it can't damage the spinal column of another animal as illustrated by this in Auffenberg's book
Benko2015
 
"As in other carnivores, cannibalism is most common during the periods of high population density. The usual ecological separation of size groups in V. komodoensis tends to keep densities uniform over fairly large areas. However, this density uniformity breaks down during feeding aggregations, when various-sized individuals are crowded together in rather small areas. At these times aggression is common (Chap. 12). Though such aggregations provide opportunities for cannibalism, we have never observed it under those circumstances. However, 19W killed two smaller oras (18W and 27W) and undoubtedly would have eaten both if he had not been frightened off. In both instances the smaller lizard was in Trap 1 when 19W entered it. Tracks on the ground in both cases suggested that the smaller lizards tried to get away but were apparently cornered, seized, and killed. In both cases a dead bait was available to 19W, but it was ignored in favor of the smaller, live lizard. In one instance 19W was frightened while he was still in the trap, and he left the dead lizard immediately and tried to scramble out of the trap. In the other case, 19W trapped 18W in the trap release box. The struggle there was so fierce that a hinge of the release door was sprung and the 4-mm nylon cords holding the door closed were torn loose. The larger ora then apparently dragged the smaller one through the box and out of the trap. There the widely splattered blood indicated he had thrown the lizard from side to side very violently. (The same technique is also used on smaller prey by other varanid species [Loop, 1974].) It was at this time that the vertebral column was apparently severed and the abdominal cavity opened by a massive wound extending across the belly from side to side. The carcass was being dragged into the brush as we approached the trap. While we spent a few minutes reconstructing the events on the basis of the tracks and signs, the large ora had eaten the viscera. He left the carcass when he saw us as we trailed him into the brush. Lizard 27W also had its vertebral column severed, probably by the same technique. It is clear that under certain circumstances a large ora will attack and eat any smaller ora it can manage to corner. This probably happens most often in ora burrows and along earth and rock cliffs. Overall density of oras and other potential food resources in the general area are obviously important factors. Cannibalism is largely restricted to both the very young and the old. The former are captured alive and eaten, but remains of large monitors are probably the result of scavenging (see Chap. 11). The pattern of cannibalistic activity being largely restricted to larger specimens is identical to that found in Crocodylus niloticus by Cott (1960)."
W. Auffenberg.
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Ausar
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bone crusher
Jul 29 2016, 11:47 PM
Well the whole ramming thing was actually portrayed in the docu Dinosaur Revolution, episode 4 where two t-rexes rammed each other both using the skull and the shoulder.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCtZCi-OIBU
The story writers of Dinosaur Revolution must not have been aware of the fact that S-shaped necks aren't the best absorbers of horizontal force impacting the head. Or the fact that there are no real headbutting adaptations in tyrannosaurids. Or any "shoulder checking" adaptations in them either.
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