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Giganotosaurus carolinii v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Jan 31 2012, 05:48 PM (110,350 Views)
Taipan
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Giganotosaurus carolinii
Giganotosaurus ("giant southern lizard"), was a carcharodontosaurid dinosaur that lived 93 to 89 million years ago during the Turonian stage of the Late Cretaceous period. It is one of the longest known terrestrial carnivores, bigger than Tyrannosaurus, but in length and weight, smaller than Spinosaurus. Although longer than T. rex, G. carolinii was lighter and had a much smaller braincase that was the size and shape of a banana. A well-developed olfactory region means it probably had a good sense of smell. Titanosaur fossils have been recovered near the remains of Giganotosaurus, leading to speculation that these carnivores may have preyed on the giant herbivores. Fossils of related carcharodontosaurid fossils grouped closely together may indicate pack hunting, a behavior that could possibly extend to Giganotosaurus itself. he holotype specimen's (MUCPv-Ch1) skeleton was about 70% complete and included parts of the skull, a lower jaw, pelvis, hindlimbs and most of the backbone. The premaxillae, jugals, quadratojugals, the back of the lower jaws and the forelimbs are missing. Various estimates find that it measured somewhere between 12.2 and 13 m (40 and 43 ft) in length, and between 6.5 and 13.3 tons in weight. A second, more fragmentary, specimen (MUCPv-95) has also been identified, found in 1987 by Jorge Calvo. It is only known from the front part of the left dentary which is 8% larger than the equivalent bone from the holotype. This largest Giganotosaurus specimen is estimated to represent an individual with a skull length of 195 cm (6.40 ft), compared to the holotype's estimated at 1.80 m (5.9 ft) skull, making it likely that Giganotosaurus had the largest skull of any known theropod. Giganotosaurus surpassed Tyrannosaurus in mass by at least half a ton (the upper size estimate for T. rex is 9.1 t). Additionally several single teeth, discovered from 1987 onwards, have been referred to the species.

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Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago. It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

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Prehistoric Cat
Jan 31 2012, 04:53 PM
Giganotosaurus VS Tyrannosaurus
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Anomonyous
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ShadowPredator
Feb 5 2012, 11:38 PM
I'm not calling you a fanboy or anything, but ive noticed that in every "Tyrannosaurus vs ......" you always defend the Trex, against a 25 ton Hadrosaur, 3 against an Alamosaurus ect. Its weird, you need to quit criticizing Darkgricer for thinking of ways Giga can kill Rex; yes we all know Rex can kill Giga, but it's not invincible, I saw something recently that said Rex could only run 17.9 mph so if Giga ran 20 mph it'd be faster; yes Giga would have to be agile, even if the Juvinile was away from tge adults, the adults would still hear it's cries, and cOME to defend it's young, so Giga has to dodge the weapons of the Sauropod; but rex's prey was very agile too, so these two would probably be similar in terms of agility.
I do not remember ever supporting tyrannosaurus against alamosaurus. I have always voted for the latter in those threads.

We don't know if sauropods would have been particularly good parents, but if thewy did come to the youngster's aid, why, they're even slower.

The 18 mph tyrannosaurus has been disproved. That and there's no way giganotosaurus could have run faster. Just look at the skeleton and the legs.
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Anomonyous
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Feb 6 2012, 12:15 AM
1: I just said something, you know. Like that juvenile sauropods would've been on the menu, but only every now and then. It would be far to dangerous to hunt them all the time. There was more prey than just sauropods in its time, for example a species of Iguanodont (Who's name is to complicated for even me to spell.). Sauropods had a good time. But they weren't the only herbivores to have one.

Ok. While I agree with the massive biteforce intelligence and possibly binocular vision (As I have yet to see a Giganotosaurus skull from the front. I've searched for it over and over again, found nothing.). I disagree with the faster reflexes. The difference between Giga's and T.rex's main prey is that T.rex has the luxury of the fact that it's prey isn't able to hit it without putting a vunerable part of it's body near the threat (Like the head or the neck.). Giganotosaurus' main prey has a giant tail it can use to hit a predator before the predator can even come close. Giganotosaurus will have to take more risks to come close to its prey. This mens it would probably need the faster reflexes to dodge incoming tails and necks. Even a juvenile the weight of it's attacker would still have a pretty formidable reach. Also, those tails would move quicker than a cheetah can run. Some serious reflexes would be required to doge.

2: Agility, speed, taking advantage of a vunerable moment of T.rex. Sure it would be tough to get past, but every animal will sometimes need to make themselves vunerable by attacking. This counts foor both T.rex AND Giga.

Hmmmm... Looking at those skeletons, I'd say it does

Giga still has enough to be a relativly fast and agile (Especialy agile) creature. There's more to speed and agility than hips.

3: I know you're argueing, it's mainly Taurus who's mean to me, like when he called me dumb IN PUBLIC and noone even reacted. You, you're not to bad, but it mainly seems like you can't accept the fact that others have another opinion and that you must, oh so must change thier minds. But since you apoligysed (Not that it was a serious apoligy, tough.) I can forgive you... A bit.


@ 7Alx: Oh, come on! Now you're just being anti Giga! The holotype was not much smaller than Sue, meanign it was still in the large T.rex area. A large Giganotosaurus would be larger than Sue for sure.
1. Sauropods would likely kill themselves by using their necks as weapons. The tail, while extremely powerful, wouldn't be able to move as fast as a cheetah as you put it, or the sauropod would smash its own tail to bits.

Triceratops is a relatively fast and agile opponent. If you were locked in a battle with one, you'd have to do some weaving and dodging, providing that triceratops doesn't act like a rhino and keep charging. Speaking of which, triceratops probably did not charge anyway. It'd be a tough, fierce, fast fight.

No matter how un-agile giganotosaurus is, it's still going to be able to run circles around a sauropod.

2. Looking at the skeletons, you can see that:

1. Tyrannosaurus has much more room than giganotosaurus for muscle attachment on the hips.

2. Tyrannosaurus' tibia and femur are closer in size. The is a mark of a cursorial animal.

Giganotosaurus doesn't have anything that would seem to help it to be faster than tyrannosaurus.

http://news.discovery.com/animals/t-rex-tail-built-for-speed.html

Thomas Holtz has remarked upon the speed and large leg muscles of tyrannosaurus. This, along with the crushing bite, is why he believes T. Rex was a predator that chased its prey down, rather than ambushing them.

3. I am sorry. However, this is what I believe and this here's a forum for arguing.

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DarkGricer
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Anomonyous
Feb 6 2012, 12:47 AM
DarkGricer
Feb 6 2012, 12:15 AM
1: I just said something, you know. Like that juvenile sauropods would've been on the menu, but only every now and then. It would be far to dangerous to hunt them all the time. There was more prey than just sauropods in its time, for example a species of Iguanodont (Who's name is to complicated for even me to spell.). Sauropods had a good time. But they weren't the only herbivores to have one.

Ok. While I agree with the massive biteforce intelligence and possibly binocular vision (As I have yet to see a Giganotosaurus skull from the front. I've searched for it over and over again, found nothing.). I disagree with the faster reflexes. The difference between Giga's and T.rex's main prey is that T.rex has the luxury of the fact that it's prey isn't able to hit it without putting a vunerable part of it's body near the threat (Like the head or the neck.). Giganotosaurus' main prey has a giant tail it can use to hit a predator before the predator can even come close. Giganotosaurus will have to take more risks to come close to its prey. This mens it would probably need the faster reflexes to dodge incoming tails and necks. Even a juvenile the weight of it's attacker would still have a pretty formidable reach. Also, those tails would move quicker than a cheetah can run. Some serious reflexes would be required to doge.

2: Agility, speed, taking advantage of a vunerable moment of T.rex. Sure it would be tough to get past, but every animal will sometimes need to make themselves vunerable by attacking. This counts foor both T.rex AND Giga.

Hmmmm... Looking at those skeletons, I'd say it does

Giga still has enough to be a relativly fast and agile (Especialy agile) creature. There's more to speed and agility than hips.

3: I know you're argueing, it's mainly Taurus who's mean to me, like when he called me dumb IN PUBLIC and noone even reacted. You, you're not to bad, but it mainly seems like you can't accept the fact that others have another opinion and that you must, oh so must change thier minds. But since you apoligysed (Not that it was a serious apoligy, tough.) I can forgive you... A bit.


@ 7Alx: Oh, come on! Now you're just being anti Giga! The holotype was not much smaller than Sue, meanign it was still in the large T.rex area. A large Giganotosaurus would be larger than Sue for sure.
1. Sauropods would likely kill themselves by using their necks as weapons. The tail, while extremely powerful, wouldn't be able to move as fast as a cheetah as you put it, or the sauropod would smash its own tail to bits.

Triceratops is a relatively fast and agile opponent. If you were locked in a battle with one, you'd have to do some weaving and dodging, providing that triceratops doesn't act like a rhino and keep charging. Speaking of which, triceratops probably did not charge anyway. It'd be a tough, fierce, fast fight.

No matter how un-agile giganotosaurus is, it's still going to be able to run circles around a sauropod.

2. Looking at the skeletons, you can see that:

1. Tyrannosaurus has much more room than giganotosaurus for muscle attachment on the hips.

2. Tyrannosaurus' tibia and femur are closer in size. The is a mark of a cursorial animal.

Giganotosaurus doesn't have anything that would seem to help it to be faster than tyrannosaurus.

http://news.discovery.com/animals/t-rex-tail-built-for-speed.html

Thomas Holtz has remarked upon the speed and large leg muscles of tyrannosaurus. This, along with the crushing bite, is why he believes T. Rex was a predator that chased its prey down, rather than ambushing them.

3. I am sorry. However, this is what I believe and this here's a forum for arguing.

1: Oh, yeah? Even if you're right, an Argentiosaurus would still need only 1 blow to potentialy kill a Giganotosaurus. A Triceratops can kill a T.rex in one blow to, but only if it's in the right place. A sauropod can just swing it's tail, if hit, you're toast.

Fast? No. Agile? Well, only in the turning kind of way. But I'm pretty sure a Rhino is both faste and more agile. Also, I never said it charged. In fact, I already knew it didn't.

Yes, but not without risking it's very own life. Agility would seriously help its chances of survival.

2: Yes.

You're wrong there. Looking at the skeletons, Giganotosaurus lower leg bone (I'm not sure which one is which. So I'm just calling it a lower leg bone, deal with it.) seems to be longer than its upper leg bone in comparising to T.rex. This is a trait for fast animals. Sure T.rex might have bigger muscle attachment, but Giga is more well desinged to runn. I'll take back that I said it was faster, but thanks to anatomy, they should be around as fast.

That's just not right. If a T.rex falls while running, its dead. Ambushing prey would greatly reduce the chance of there being an object in its path that can make it trip (Because you won't have to run as long.). + prey like Triceratops likely didn't run for long, it just wasn't made to run for great distances. + if it would chase it and the Triceratops would decide to fight, the T.rex could forget it's meal. Ambush is basicly the only way it could take down an adult Triceratops, let alone Eotriceratops.

@You against SP: He's got a point there. T.rex VS Lambeosaurus. T.rex winz! T.rex VS Spinosaurus. T.rex winz! T.rex VS Giganotosaurus. T.rex winz! Olololololol!
Edited by DarkGricer, Feb 6 2012, 01:47 AM.
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Anomonyous
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1. The only place a triceratops couldn't kill a tyrannosaurus is if it struck the tail or legs. Same goes for a sauropod.

Some have theorized that ceratopsians could attain rhino-like speeds.

I'm not saying it's literally going to be running around the sauropod, I'm saying that regardless of how unagile giganotosaurus is, it's still going to be 20 times more so than the sauropod it's hunting.

2. The tibia? You may be confusing part of it with the ankle. Look at the left leg and it's more clear.

Anyways, I think that animals with femurs and tibias of about equal size are faster.

If any theropod over 3 tons fell over, it'd be dead. Thus, saying tyrannosaurus was an ambush predator doesn't count for much. However, I'll refute that anyway and bring you here:

http://dml.cmnh.org/1995Feb/msg00327.html
Edited by Anomonyous, Feb 6 2012, 02:54 AM.
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Taurus
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I'm so sick of Darkgricer being childish here as usual....I don't say you were dumb in any post but you have huge issues with anyone who's disagreed with you and correct you in few points. It's called debate.

I just don't see how the agility helps Giganotosaurus against a similar sized theropod?
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Anomonyous
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Problem is that giganotosaurus isn't any more agile in the first place.

Please don't call Darkgricer childish, he certainly does not appreciate that.
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DarkGricer
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Anomonyous
Feb 6 2012, 02:50 AM
1. The only place a triceratops couldn't kill a tyrannosaurus is if it struck the tail or legs. Same goes for a sauropod.

Some have theorized that ceratopsians could attain rhino-like speeds.

I'm not saying it's literally going to be running around the sauropod, I'm saying that regardless of how unagile giganotosaurus is, it's still going to be 20 times more so than the sauropod it's hunting.

2. The tibia? You may be confusing part of it with the ankle. Look at the left leg and it's more clear.

Anyways, I think that animals with femurs and tibias of about equal size are faster.

If any theropod over 3 tons fell over, it'd be dead. Thus, saying tyrannosaurus was an ambush predator doesn't count for much. However, I'll refute that anyway and bring you here:

http://dml.cmnh.org/1995Feb/msg00327.html
1: Not exactly. The thing with a Triceratops is, it has all the damage focused on a small area. A sauropod hits more than 25% of you, Giganotosaurus sized or not.

Oh, realy? Seems highly unlikely to me.

So? A sauropod doesn't need agility to hit its target.

2: Hmmmm... Nope. I'm not. Left or right, it still looks longer.

Actualy, no. That is the exact reason why Jack came up with the scavenger theory. T.rex's very own legs didn't make it a speedster.

I never said they wouldn't be. ;) I also never said Giganotosaurus, Spinosaurus, Carcharodontosaurus, Acrocanthosaurus, ect where chase predators. In fact, I believe that most, if not all Theropods where ambush predators. Of course, when hunting Sauropods, they would've put some of the chasign element in thier tactics, as you can't just suprize and overwhelm a Sauropod. That's pretty imposible.



@Taurus: Not this again. Yes, you insulted me. Do you even remember every post you made on the old forum? I even said that I found your post insulting on the very same threat.
And, no. I don't have issues with that. I have issues with people who ignore things I have said. Oh, and I also have an isue with people who threathen me. Lets just forget all this ever happend and go our own ways.
And if you realy want to continue this discusion, do it over PM. Right now, focus on the thing we're discussing right here, T.rex VS Giganotosaurus.

DG, over and out.

Edit: You know what? I'm leaving the debate. Neither of us can convince the other, and as logn as one of you breathes, I'll be stuck in this threat unless I quit myself. So that's it. I'm leavign thr debate. Goodbye. It was nice to argue against you.
Edited by DarkGricer, Feb 6 2012, 04:53 AM.
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Anomonyous
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Ok, so be it.
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Taurus
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Maybe only if you use right information and know about dinosaur function, we don't have to disagree with you.
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ShadowPredator: a T-rex killing a 25 ton hadrosaur would IMO be less impressive than killing a triceratops.

As I see, this is a very good matchup b/c it matches two very powerful theropods of about same weight but with two different anatomies and (presumably) hunting strategies. Looking at the image of the two skulls as posted here, I'm tempted to give the edge to giga. It would be too simplistic however, so for the moment I'm not voting (the more time I'm on this forum, the more I'm getting cautious :) ).

I suspect that the best chances for T-rex would be to deliver a crushing bite on the neck fairly early in the fight. Otherwise the meat slicing teeth in those big gaped jaws would likely cause huge blood loss and turn the tables to the giga advantage.
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AlphaPredator
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I believe that the Tyrannosaurus will become the victor of this conflict more likely than not, as it seems to me that the T-rex simply has more advantages than the Giga and is just well suited to battling other therapods, more so than giganatosaurus.

So it has come to my attention that some believe "slicing" is more efficient in battle than "crushing", but this isn't necessarily the case for example, the strength of a Hyena's jaws have been recorded to kill animals similar to them in size (Dogs for example) with a single bite without even breaking the skin, a feat that would be even more emphasized in Tyrannosaurus. I suggest you guys check this out:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070518105742.htm

You've probably seen this article before on the Tyrannosaurus' animal profile, but it just demonstrates the incredible strength this animal had with the combination of these fused nasal bones aiding them to apply huge bites and the enlarged attachment and expansion of jaw muscles fueling those bites. Furthermore, we must consider the neck muscles of this titan, with the high bite forces and large muscle attachments it's suggested that the neck was a powerful component in this superweapon (so no necks are going to be getting snapped here DarkGricer) , check this study out done by Eric Snively who also did the study above:

http://www.bio.ucalgary.ca/contact/faculty/pdf/russell/305.pdf

The majority of it is complex stuff but just read the abstract and you'll get the idea.

So that is just one point in favour of Tyrannosaurus I will state my full thoughts on the matter tomorrow as I've been a complete idiot and started listing my thoughts late at night, how typical of me rolleyes .
Edited by AlphaPredator, Feb 6 2012, 09:06 AM.
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Rodentsofunusualsize
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Taurus, shut up. DG, shut up. DG your coming up with fantasy theories that could never work, and you need to develop a thicker skin, this is a debating forum. Taurus, stop deliberately antagonising a kid, he can't possibly know as much as you on topics like this, because he's just a kid. He has an excuse to be acting immaturely, you don't. Your acting like a spoilt child.

On topic, Rex wins, but only very slightly. And only because of the jaws, I feel that crushing jaws are more useful here than ripping jaws.
Edited by Rodentsofunusualsize, Feb 6 2012, 10:21 AM.
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Anomonyous
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Feb 6 2012, 06:55 AM
ShadowPredator: a T-rex killing a 25 ton hadrosaur would IMO be less impressive than killing a triceratops.

As I see, this is a very good matchup b/c it matches two very powerful theropods of about same weight but with two different anatomies and (presumably) hunting strategies. Looking at the image of the two skulls as posted here, I'm tempted to give the edge to giga. It would be too simplistic however, so for the moment I'm not voting (the more time I'm on this forum, the more I'm getting cautious :) ).

I suspect that the best chances for T-rex would be to deliver a crushing bite on the neck fairly early in the fight. Otherwise the meat slicing teeth in those big gaped jaws would likely cause huge blood loss and turn the tables to the giga advantage.
The skeleton pictures I posted were not to scale.

Tyrannosaurus' jaws are deadly weapons when used against another theropod. There's not many areas where they wouldn't cripple or kill. Also, (and I'm hoping everyone remembers this) the teeth can both slice and crush, compared to giganotosaurus' which can only slice.
Edited by Anomonyous, Feb 6 2012, 09:51 AM.
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DarkGricer
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Rodentsofunusualsize
Feb 6 2012, 09:42 AM
Taurus, shut up. DG, shut up. DG your coming up with fantasy theories that could never work, and you need to develop a thicker skin, this is a debating forum. Taurus, stop deliberately antagonising a kid, he can't possibly know as much as you on topics like this, because he's just a kid. He has an excuse to be acting immaturely, you don't. Your acting like a spoilt child.
Just coming to see if anyone had commented something I wouldn't like about my leaving. Then I find this.
All I have to say is:

With a sarcastic voice: Thank you.

I may be only 12 years old, but I search for the newest and most accurate information about Dinosaurs all the time. I have suprizing anatomical knowledge (Even if I say so myself.) and don't go around twisting Dinosaurs into impossible poses. It's possible that you guys think I am because you're imagining it differently than I am. It can be difficould to imagine these things when you can't see what's going on in others minds. I admit, I was wrong about Giga being able to use both jaws and claws on a T.rex, but there are other things you deny that would be entirely possible. Some might not come without risks, but they're possible.
I know it's all about debating. I do it all the time with my sister. I don't get all angry because of it, or anything. Sometimes I have to face the fact that I'm wrong. Sometimes she has to as well. I'm not leaving this threat because no one agrees with me. I'm leaving because I won't give in. Taurus won't give in. Anomonyous won't give in. taht would mean this would never, ever end. Unless the forum would die and eventualy close, but it will probably take another few years before that happens. Now, I'm not planning to spend years debating on a single threat, a week is more than enough for me!

I'm not childish. I'm stating things I see, belive or know and that others might not see or know. It's possible that I'm wrong and have outdated information pumped into my head, but then I won't come crying at you.

Personaly I find what you said slightly offending towards me. And towards Taurus to. As far as I know, telling others to shut up is NOT nice.
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Rodentsofunusualsize
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It's the god damn internet, not the playground. Grow a thicker skin. You have been insulting Taurus and Anom just as much as they have you. I don't like them, and I find ganging up on a kid extremely unfair and uncalled for, but you need to take it in to your stride and realize that people can be arseholes. That is how it is, this is a debate. People will insult each other and you need to learn to deal with it.
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