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Giganotosaurus carolinii v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Jan 31 2012, 05:48 PM (110,348 Views)
Taipan
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Giganotosaurus carolinii
Giganotosaurus ("giant southern lizard"), was a carcharodontosaurid dinosaur that lived 93 to 89 million years ago during the Turonian stage of the Late Cretaceous period. It is one of the longest known terrestrial carnivores, bigger than Tyrannosaurus, but in length and weight, smaller than Spinosaurus. Although longer than T. rex, G. carolinii was lighter and had a much smaller braincase that was the size and shape of a banana. A well-developed olfactory region means it probably had a good sense of smell. Titanosaur fossils have been recovered near the remains of Giganotosaurus, leading to speculation that these carnivores may have preyed on the giant herbivores. Fossils of related carcharodontosaurid fossils grouped closely together may indicate pack hunting, a behavior that could possibly extend to Giganotosaurus itself. he holotype specimen's (MUCPv-Ch1) skeleton was about 70% complete and included parts of the skull, a lower jaw, pelvis, hindlimbs and most of the backbone. The premaxillae, jugals, quadratojugals, the back of the lower jaws and the forelimbs are missing. Various estimates find that it measured somewhere between 12.2 and 13 m (40 and 43 ft) in length, and between 6.5 and 13.3 tons in weight. A second, more fragmentary, specimen (MUCPv-95) has also been identified, found in 1987 by Jorge Calvo. It is only known from the front part of the left dentary which is 8% larger than the equivalent bone from the holotype. This largest Giganotosaurus specimen is estimated to represent an individual with a skull length of 195 cm (6.40 ft), compared to the holotype's estimated at 1.80 m (5.9 ft) skull, making it likely that Giganotosaurus had the largest skull of any known theropod. Giganotosaurus surpassed Tyrannosaurus in mass by at least half a ton (the upper size estimate for T. rex is 9.1 t). Additionally several single teeth, discovered from 1987 onwards, have been referred to the species.

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Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago. It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

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Prehistoric Cat
Jan 31 2012, 04:53 PM
Giganotosaurus VS Tyrannosaurus
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Replies:
SpinoInWonderland
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MysteryMeat
May 23 2013, 03:15 AM
Sue: 12.3m, 85000kg?, MUCPv-Ch1 12.4m, 72000kg, MUCPv-95 12.7-13.2m, 80000-87000kg?
Those mass estimates are wayyy beyond any sensible limit for bipeds.
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MysteryMeat
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brolyeuphyfusion
May 23 2013, 03:18 AM
MysteryMeat
May 23 2013, 03:15 AM
Sue: 12.3m, 85000kg?, MUCPv-Ch1 12.4m, 72000kg, MUCPv-95 12.7-13.2m, 80000-87000kg?
Those mass estimates are wayyy beyond any sensible limit for bipeds.
LOL what? Spino is much heavier, you think it is a quadruped or something?
Edited by MysteryMeat, May 23 2013, 03:28 AM.
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SpinoInWonderland
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MysteryMeat
May 23 2013, 03:27 AM
brolyeuphyfusion
May 23 2013, 03:18 AM
MysteryMeat
May 23 2013, 03:15 AM
Sue: 12.3m, 85000kg?, MUCPv-Ch1 12.4m, 72000kg, MUCPv-95 12.7-13.2m, 80000-87000kg?
Those mass estimates are wayyy beyond any sensible limit for bipeds.
LOL what? Spino is much heavier, you think it is a quadruped or something?
Spinosaurus is likely ~10,000-14,000 kilograms(10-14 tonnes) for the ~16-18 meter range, are you even reading your numbers right? Do you seriously believe that Sue could be as massive as a large Argentinosaurus?
Edited by SpinoInWonderland, May 23 2013, 03:43 AM.
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7Alx
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He meant 8500 kg, just he accidentally wrote 85000 kg.
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MysteryMeat
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oops, yeah deduct one zero from each estimate.
Sue: 12.3m, 8500kg?, MUCPv-Ch1 12.4m, 7200kg, MUCPv-95 12.7-13.2m, 8000-8700kg?
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Teratophoneus
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For me:

"Sue"
12.29 (~ 12.3 meters)
6400-7500 kg

MUPCv-ch1
12.4 meters
6000 kg

MUPCv-95
12.5-13.7 meters
8000 kg

The size of MUPCv-95 was made according to the maximum and minimum possible estimate.
Edited by Teratophoneus, May 23 2013, 04:47 AM.
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MysteryMeat
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Gryposaurus notabilis
May 23 2013, 04:19 AM
For me:

"Sue"
12.29 (~ 12.3 meters)
6400-7500 kg

MUPCv-ch1
12.4 meters
6000-8000 kg

MUPCv-95
12.5-13.7 meters
8000 kg

The size of MUPCv-95 was made according to the maximum and minimum possible estimate.
sorry grypo but MUPCv-ch1 clearly has less volume than Sue, whether if it works for you or not. If you think rex is 7500kg max, then MUPCv-ch1 cannot possibly be more than that.
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Teratophoneus
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Yes, in fact I realized after I overdid it. More like 6000 kg.
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Carcharadon
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Giganotosaurus wins 55/45 imo
Edited by Carcharadon, Jul 16 2013, 04:13 AM.
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Godzillasaurus
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MysteryMeat
May 23 2013, 03:16 AM
Godzillasaurus
May 23 2013, 03:01 AM
Spinodontosaurus
May 23 2013, 02:05 AM
Tyrannosaurus wins. It was at least as large, if not larger than Giganotosaurus, and holds most of the advantages imho, besides height (which is still pretty comparable) and probably jaw gape.
Tyrannosaurus was smaller than giganotosaurus at around 6-7 tons (correct me if I am wrong). Giganotosaurus weighed around 8-9 tons. I would agree that giganotosaurus was less heavily built, but it still had superior weaponry (excluding the obvious advantage that t-rex had bite-force wise); knife-like teeth, more powerful forearms, and a wider gape.
not true, MUCPv-Ch1 clearly has overall volume less than Sue.
if you think largest rex only weighs 7t, then MUCPv-Ch1 would weigh 6t, not 8.
I could care less about the holotypes and all that garbage. I have no clue how all of you know the difference between MUCPv-Ch1 and and MUCPv-Ch3, specifically those who have not even entered high school yet. Can we please get back to talking about dinosaurs and not plaster structures? I feel like an absolute retard on this forum now because it has been overrun by tons of middle schoolers (not saying that you are a middle schooler MysteryMeat) who know more about holotypes than me. I'm sorry to be sort of rude, but this is the reason why I left this forum for a few months in the first place.

My main point is that it is alot more enjoyable for us all if we don't have to take into account a difference of a couple centimeters between two of those holotypes.
Edited by Godzillasaurus, May 23 2013, 11:46 AM.
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MysteryMeat
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Godzillasaurus
May 23 2013, 11:38 AM
MysteryMeat
May 23 2013, 03:16 AM
Godzillasaurus
May 23 2013, 03:01 AM
Spinodontosaurus
May 23 2013, 02:05 AM
Tyrannosaurus wins. It was at least as large, if not larger than Giganotosaurus, and holds most of the advantages imho, besides height (which is still pretty comparable) and probably jaw gape.
Tyrannosaurus was smaller than giganotosaurus at around 6-7 tons (correct me if I am wrong). Giganotosaurus weighed around 8-9 tons. I would agree that giganotosaurus was less heavily built, but it still had superior weaponry (excluding the obvious advantage that t-rex had bite-force wise); knife-like teeth, more powerful forearms, and a wider gape.
not true, MUCPv-Ch1 clearly has overall volume less than Sue.
if you think largest rex only weighs 7t, then MUCPv-Ch1 would weigh 6t, not 8.
I could care less about the holotypes and all that garbage. I have no clue how all of you know the difference between MUCPv-Ch1 and and MUCPv-Ch3, specifically those who have not even entered high school yet. Can we please get back to talking about dinosaurs and not plaster structures? I feel like an absolute retard on this forum now because it has been overrun by tons of middle schoolers (not saying that you are a middle schooler MysteryMeat) who know more about holotypes than me. I'm sorry to be sort of rude, but this is the reason why I left this forum for a few months in the first place.

My main point is that it is alot more enjoyable for us all if we don't have to take into account a difference of a couple centimeters between two of those holotypes.
well then, just look at this image:
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Jinfengopteryx
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Godzillasaurus
May 23 2013, 11:38 AM
I could care less about the holotypes and all that garbage. I have no clue how all of you know the difference between MUCPv-Ch1 and and MUCPv-Ch3, specifically those who have not even entered high school yet. Can we please get back to talking about dinosaurs and not plaster structures? I feel like an absolute retard on this forum now because it has been overrun by tons of middle schoolers (not saying that you are a middle schooler MysteryMeat) who know more about holotypes than me. I'm sorry to be sort of rude, but this is the reason why I left this forum for a few months in the first place.

My main point is that it is alot more enjoyable for us all if we don't have to take into account a difference of a couple centimeters between two of those holotypes.
I will keep that reply simple, witht the a bit more complexpart being hidden for those, who don't want to read it

I would say the easiest thing would be to assume similar mass.
argumentation can be found here.
Now you can start the debate, for what the therad was made for (the fight).
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Shaochilong
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Spinodontosaurus
May 23 2013, 02:05 AM
Tyrannosaurus wins. It was at least as large, if not larger than Giganotosaurus, and holds most of the advantages imho, besides height (which is still pretty comparable) and probably jaw gape.
Roughly this. I'm not sure about the round-up to 14 m for Giga; it's not much of a speculation to say that they reached 13.5 or 14 m, but the same applies to Tyrannosaurus. With the evidence that Spinodont has provided, I'm becoming convinced that, for all intents and purposes the giant theropods with the exception of Spinosaurus were the same size- about 6-7 t, and 12-13.5 m long. So Tyrannosaurus would hold an advantage as they are effectively at parity in nature.

@Anonymous, while I agree that Tyrannosaurus wins, saying Giganotosaurus has no advantage apart from a larger gape is sort of fanboyish. It is longer, slightly taller, and arguably heavier than Tyrannosaurus. As I have said numerous times, we cannot possibly hope to accurately estimate the intelligence of animals that have been extinct for 65 and 97 million years...and in any case, even if Tyrannosaurus was more intelligent, then that would not make much of a difference, either. Unless the difference in intelligence is vast (on the level of a spider crab against a Pacific giant octopus) then it is a meaningless asset in a fight.
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Jinfengopteryx
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As said by 7Alx (although it was about Taurus, but it aswell applies to Anonymus), these guys are inactive. He very likely won't read your post.
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theropod
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Just a short tought on the myth of T. rex being taller than Giganotosaurus or vice versa:
The holotype of G. carolinii should be about the same height as FMNH PR 2081 at the acetabulum, possibly a little taller but not dramatically;
mean femur lenght+tibial lenght+(extrapolated) metatarsals basing on Acrocanthosaurus MOU 8-0-S8 in which the Femur/Metatarsal ratio is 2,13)

Sue has a 131-138cm femur (the lower end is more easily verifiable but let's take the mean which is ~135cm), a 114cm tibia and the longest metatarsal is 67cm .
Mean femur lenght for MUCPv-CH1 would be 140cm (range is 137-143cm), tibial lenght is 112cm and metatarsals based on mean femur lenght 66cm.

In sum the lenght of the three major leg bones combined is 318cm in the MUCPv-Ch1 and 316cm in FMNH PR 2081, hence pretty much the same in both considering the overall size. The largest Giganotosaurus would be 2-8% bigger tough.

The leg lenght with all bones included would be a bit higher for both of them, while I daresay acetabular height wouldn't because in reality all the bones are not forming a straight line. The height above the ilium would be a bit higher, as would the height of the head.

How did the myth of Sue having longer legs emerge? Anyway, that's BS. Dimensionally, just about everything about MUCPV-CH1 is bigger, except for the pectoral area and probably some ribs.

Is it just me or is MUCPv-95's dentary less concave in Hartmans drawing? He might be accounting for that thing being pretty heavily eroded...
And that's only 6,5%, 8% would put the animal at ~13,5m.

For the torso, keep in mind FMNH PR 2081 probably has a significantly lower density. That in Acrocanthosaurus atokensis NCSM 14345 was about 15% higher than in Sue (Bates et al., 2009, Hutchinson et al., 2011).




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