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Why don't carnivores ever prey on each other?
Topic Started: Feb 1 2012, 04:59 AM (10,427 Views)
DinosaurMichael
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Ever notice when it comes to nature predators never prey on each other and mainly just on herbivores. For example. A Lion kills a Spotted Hyena but doesn't eat it. Why make it go to waste and not just eat it if starving. Is it because carnivores taste bad or is there any other reason? Could anyway explain why?
Edited by DinosaurMichael, Feb 1 2012, 05:33 AM.
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Taurus
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Actually carnivores do prey on other carnivores, just not often due to the herbivore populations are high compared to other carnivore populations which are low.

Coyotes regularly prey on domestic dogs/cats, mustelids, raccoons, oppossums and foxes. Leopards prey on hyenas, dholes, wild dogs, feral dogs, smaller cats, jackals, mongooses, foxes, civets, cheetahs, lion/tiger cubs and even other leopards. Wolves often prey on other canid species and young bears. Cougars do prey on wolverines, coyotes, wolves, domestic dogs, smaller cats and bear cubs.

Weasels regularly prey on shrews and moles in areas where there are no rodents existed. Bobcats often feed on smaller mustelids from weasels to fishers. Fishers often prey on other carnivores. Canids often prey on smaller carnivores as well. Tigers often included dogs and bears as part of their diet but they do sometimes feed on leopards. Male bears are highly cannibalistic and there is a record of a grizzly bear feeding on a wolf carcass. Also there is a record of a black bear killed and eaten a male wolverine.

The only carnivores that don't feed on other carnivores are cheetahs, jaguars, sloth bears, lions and of course panda bears.
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DinosaurMichael
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Taurus
Feb 1 2012, 07:02 AM
Actually carnivores do prey on other carnivores, just not often due to the herbivore populations are high compared to other carnivore populations which are low.

Coyotes regularly prey on domestic dogs/cats, mustelids, raccoons, oppossums and foxes. Leopards prey on hyenas, dholes, wild dogs, feral dogs, smaller cats, jackals, mongooses, foxes, civets, cheetahs, lion/tiger cubs and even other leopards. Wolves often prey on other canid species and young bears. Cougars do prey on wolverines, coyotes, wolves, domestic dogs, smaller cats and bear cubs.

Weasels regularly prey on shrews and moles in areas where there are no rodents existed. Bobcats often feed on smaller mustelids from weasels to fishers. Fishers often prey on other carnivores. Canids often prey on smaller carnivores as well. Tigers often included dogs and bears as part of their diet but they do sometimes feed on leopards. Male bears are highly cannibalistic and there is a record of a grizzly bear feeding on a wolf carcass. Also there is a record of a black bear killed and eaten a male wolverine.

The only carnivores that don't feed on other carnivores are cheetahs, jaguars, sloth bears, lions and of course panda bears.
Really? Because normally when Leopards and Hyenas interact they are just competing. Maybe I'm missing something about this.
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Taurus
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DinosaurMichael
Feb 1 2012, 07:11 AM
Taurus
Feb 1 2012, 07:02 AM
Actually carnivores do prey on other carnivores, just not often due to the herbivore populations are high compared to other carnivore populations which are low.

Coyotes regularly prey on domestic dogs/cats, mustelids, raccoons, oppossums and foxes. Leopards prey on hyenas, dholes, wild dogs, feral dogs, smaller cats, jackals, mongooses, foxes, civets, cheetahs, lion/tiger cubs and even other leopards. Wolves often prey on other canid species and young bears. Cougars do prey on wolverines, coyotes, wolves, domestic dogs, smaller cats and bear cubs.

Weasels regularly prey on shrews and moles in areas where there are no rodents existed. Bobcats often feed on smaller mustelids from weasels to fishers. Fishers often prey on other carnivores. Canids often prey on smaller carnivores as well. Tigers often included dogs and bears as part of their diet but they do sometimes feed on leopards. Male bears are highly cannibalistic and there is a record of a grizzly bear feeding on a wolf carcass. Also there is a record of a black bear killed and eaten a male wolverine.

The only carnivores that don't feed on other carnivores are cheetahs, jaguars, sloth bears, lions and of course panda bears.
Really? Because normally when Leopards and Hyenas interact they are just competing. Maybe I'm missing something about this.
Leopards do prey on hyenas but not often. Hyenas rarely prey on the leopards, however the hyenas are readily feed on dead carnivores. Also it is well-known fact that jackals and feral dogs are leopard's main prey sources.
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DinosaurMichael
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Taurus
Feb 1 2012, 07:15 AM
DinosaurMichael
Feb 1 2012, 07:11 AM
Taurus
Feb 1 2012, 07:02 AM
Actually carnivores do prey on other carnivores, just not often due to the herbivore populations are high compared to other carnivore populations which are low.

Coyotes regularly prey on domestic dogs/cats, mustelids, raccoons, oppossums and foxes. Leopards prey on hyenas, dholes, wild dogs, feral dogs, smaller cats, jackals, mongooses, foxes, civets, cheetahs, lion/tiger cubs and even other leopards. Wolves often prey on other canid species and young bears. Cougars do prey on wolverines, coyotes, wolves, domestic dogs, smaller cats and bear cubs.

Weasels regularly prey on shrews and moles in areas where there are no rodents existed. Bobcats often feed on smaller mustelids from weasels to fishers. Fishers often prey on other carnivores. Canids often prey on smaller carnivores as well. Tigers often included dogs and bears as part of their diet but they do sometimes feed on leopards. Male bears are highly cannibalistic and there is a record of a grizzly bear feeding on a wolf carcass. Also there is a record of a black bear killed and eaten a male wolverine.

The only carnivores that don't feed on other carnivores are cheetahs, jaguars, sloth bears, lions and of course panda bears.
Really? Because normally when Leopards and Hyenas interact they are just competing. Maybe I'm missing something about this.
Leopards do prey on hyenas but not often. Hyenas rarely prey on the leopards, however the hyenas are readily feed on dead carnivores. Also it is well-known fact that jackals and feral dogs are leopard's main prey sources.
Oh.
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Rodentsofunusualsize
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As Taurus said, nearly any carnivore can be driven to eat other carnivores, but most herbivores are easier to kill and more abundant. In the Lion pictorial on the old forum there were several pictures of Lions eating animals such as Baboons, AWDs and I think there was even a small Hyena in there. It is not common, but it does happen.
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Wolf Eagle
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They probably don't want to risk injury. You see this with Shark/Seal encounters. If the Shark is hunting a large Seal, it will come up from the bottom, breach with the Seal in it's mouth, bite, and then circle below until the Seal dies. This would an encounter between two carnivores where one is cautious while hunting the other.
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Taurus
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Rodentsofunusualsize
Feb 1 2012, 07:22 AM
As Taurus said, nearly any carnivore can be driven to eat other carnivores, but most herbivores are easier to kill and more abundant. In the Lion pictorial on the old forum there were several pictures of Lions eating animals such as Baboons, AWDs and I think there was even a small Hyena in there. It is not common, but it does happen.
Also lions are known to feeding on crocodiles but reptillian carnivores were quite different from mammalian carnivores based on colors of meat. Reptiles are white meat while most mammalian carnivores are red meat. I forget about the lioness feeding on an adult wild dog, it is very unusual case since this lioness wasn't starved but perfectly healthy. However lions predated on baboons are common and there are few lion prides specialized into baboon hunts.

Carnivores do eat dead carnivores under conditions. Wolverines often feeding on frozen wolves, foxes etc. Coyotes are known to feeding on roadkill/winterkill coyotes! There is a case of a wolf pack stole a hunter's black bear and leave the hunter half-eaten bear carcass.
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Bright Nights
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Carnivores DO prey on each other sometimes. But I think a more relevant question would be "Why don't similarly-sized carnivores regularly hunt/eat each other?"

First of all, predators tend to avoid each other to prevent injury as much as possible. In Ecology 101, if you're an injured predator, your chance of survival goes down.

With that, it becomes apparent that when predators (especially apex predators and competitors of similar niches) kill each other, they are not in a natural situation anymore. A predator likely did not mean to kill his opponent to consume its flesh, so he may leave it be. Certainly there are animals that eat their dead opponents, but it seems that as a general rule, large carnivores occupying similar niches don't see each other as food, so they treat them (or don't treat them) accordingly.
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Taurus
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Bright Nights
Feb 1 2012, 03:33 PM
Carnivores DO prey on each other sometimes. But I think a more relevant question would be "Why don't similarly-sized carnivores regularly hunt/eat each other?"

First of all, predators tend to avoid each other to prevent injury as much as possible. In Ecology 101, if you're an injured predator, your chance of survival goes down.

With that, it becomes apparent that when predators (especially apex predators and competitors of similar niches) kill each other, they are not in a natural situation anymore. A predator likely did not mean to kill his opponent to consume its flesh, so he may leave it be. Certainly there are animals that eat their dead opponents, but it seems that as a general rule, large carnivores occupying similar niches don't see each other as food, so they treat them (or don't treat them) accordingly.
Seems that the general rule don't applied to the predators who regularly prey on similar-sized domestic/feral dogs. Indian leopards regularly prey on feral dogs. Wolves and Cougars prey on dogs which isn't uncommon events.
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M4A2E4
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It should also be pointed out that most reptiles will eat anything that they can overpower, regardless of whether or not its a predator or an herbivore.
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Bright Nights
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Taurus
Feb 2 2012, 01:40 AM
Bright Nights
Feb 1 2012, 03:33 PM
Carnivores DO prey on each other sometimes. But I think a more relevant question would be "Why don't similarly-sized carnivores regularly hunt/eat each other?"

First of all, predators tend to avoid each other to prevent injury as much as possible. In Ecology 101, if you're an injured predator, your chance of survival goes down.

With that, it becomes apparent that when predators (especially apex predators and competitors of similar niches) kill each other, they are not in a natural situation anymore. A predator likely did not mean to kill his opponent to consume its flesh, so he may leave it be. Certainly there are animals that eat their dead opponents, but it seems that as a general rule, large carnivores occupying similar niches don't see each other as food, so they treat them (or don't treat them) accordingly.
Seems that the general rule don't applied to the predators who regularly prey on similar-sized domestic/feral dogs. Indian leopards regularly prey on feral dogs. Wolves and Cougars prey on dogs which isn't uncommon events.
Indian Leopards have learned that domestic dogs make tasty meals from conditioning essentially. As humans encroach in leopard territory, small dogs become easy prey. I honestly don't know if we should count this, as it's a bit like house cats killing and eating rats/weasels. A significant twist is domestication, which softened these wild wolves into dependent pets who basically eat out of our hands.
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Ursus arctos
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Here is a journal article focusing on the exact question posed in this thread.
Lions killing cheetahs is also a particular focus.

A brief summary:
While the default is that one species with a reproductive advantage will eventually out-compete the other, that this doesn't happen is obviously often the case, despite extensive niche overlaps.
The article focuses on systems with a top and intermediate predator.
The intermediate predator is assumed to be the more effective predator of the modeled prey. In fact, the model of a system in which it isn't, if the top predator has any tendency to kill the intermediate predator the latter will go extinct.
They made models considering there being only one, or two, prey species. The second expectedly predicted results much closer to what is observed.
The models either considered dynamic prey or intermediate predator vigilance-how much effort the animals do to avoid getting killed (by either predator, or the top predator, respectively). It was assumed that prey vigilance is more detrimental to the top predator than the more specialized, smaller, predators (consider: hyenas less dependent on ambush than lions, while small predators like leopards and cheetahs are harder to spot, with the cheetah also being a predator obviously very highly specialized to successful predation).
Vigilance hurts the prey and intermediate predator's ability to feed and reproduce, but reduces risk of being killed. The phenomena is very well observed (easy examples are great whites fleeing the feeding area after an orca killed one, or moose calving near roads which are both dangerous and unproductive but help protect against bears-the article provided others). The optimum level of vigilance varies based on threat from predators.

The two prey models showed:
1) Killing the intermediate predator reduces prey vigilance, making them easier for the top predator to kill increasing the top predator population.
2) Killing the intermediate predator increases their vigilance, reducing their hunting efficiency and thus increasing the top predator's ability to compete.

A graph showed also showed that at low encounter rates between the top and intermediate predator the top predator benefited more from increased intermediate prey vigilance resulting from the remains of the body, versus the benefits of eating the kill.
Basically, leaving the body as an example to the others can outweigh the more obvious benefit of eating it.

Thus it is extremely beneficial for top predators to kill intermediate predators whether or not they eat them, and some factors actually favoring not eating them.
-To add to the ideas expressed at the end, leaving carcasses of intermediate predators may also increase the intermediate predator's perceived encounter rates with the top predator and the areas which are likely to have top predators present.

Not mentioned is that perhaps predators are more likely to carry parasites that can infect other predators-I know that undercooked bear meat often causes serious parasitic infections in people (although the more acidic stomachs of predators may protect them-I don't know).

I admit readily that I don't follow how the models work (and only gave it a cursory read).
I may eventually go through and try to understand it all (likely having to dig up all the prior works it is based on) as the entire idea is interesting, but that would take a lot of time (that I don't currently have) and there are so many other projects related to posting on this forum that I would like to get on...

On a final note, here is a record of a mother brown bear killing a wild boar in defense of her cubs and not eating it, despite the fact that wild boar are regular prey for brown bears in some other regions (such as Estonia, Ukraine, and North-West Russia).
Perhaps what was discussed above also applies to wild boar-brown bear interactions in Spain?
Encounter rates are low, and the European brown bears are mostly herbivorous.
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coherentsheaf
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If someone is interested in the model used in the study above, I can try explain it.
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Taurus
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Bright Nights
Feb 2 2012, 01:17 PM
Taurus
Feb 2 2012, 01:40 AM
Bright Nights
Feb 1 2012, 03:33 PM
Carnivores DO prey on each other sometimes. But I think a more relevant question would be "Why don't similarly-sized carnivores regularly hunt/eat each other?"

First of all, predators tend to avoid each other to prevent injury as much as possible. In Ecology 101, if you're an injured predator, your chance of survival goes down.

With that, it becomes apparent that when predators (especially apex predators and competitors of similar niches) kill each other, they are not in a natural situation anymore. A predator likely did not mean to kill his opponent to consume its flesh, so he may leave it be. Certainly there are animals that eat their dead opponents, but it seems that as a general rule, large carnivores occupying similar niches don't see each other as food, so they treat them (or don't treat them) accordingly.
Seems that the general rule don't applied to the predators who regularly prey on similar-sized domestic/feral dogs. Indian leopards regularly prey on feral dogs. Wolves and Cougars prey on dogs which isn't uncommon events.
Indian Leopards have learned that domestic dogs make tasty meals from conditioning essentially. As humans encroach in leopard territory, small dogs become easy prey. I honestly don't know if we should count this, as it's a bit like house cats killing and eating rats/weasels. A significant twist is domestication, which softened these wild wolves into dependent pets who basically eat out of our hands.
However, these domestic dogs are not raised by humans as they are on their own and are fully capable to hunting ungulates on their own. Most dogs in India are not someone's pets as Indian leopards targetted the feral dogs.
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