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| Steppe Rhinoceros v Tyrannosaurus rex | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 10 2012, 06:44 PM (33,458 Views) | |
| Taipan | Feb 10 2012, 06:44 PM Post #1 |
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Steppe Rhinoceros - Elasmotherium caucasicum Elasmotherium ("Thin Plate Beast") is an extinct genus of giant rhinoceros endemic to Eurasia during the Late Pliocene through the Pleistocene, documented from 2.6 mya to as late as 50,000 years ago, possibly later, in the Late Pleistocene, an approximate span of slightly less than 2.6 million years. Three species are recognised. The best known, E. sibiricum was the size of a mammoth and is thought to have borne a large, thick horn on its forehead which was used for defense, attracting mates, driving away competitors, sweeping snow from the grass in winter and digging for water and plant roots. Like all rhinoceroses, elasmotheres were herbivorous. Unlike any others, its high-crowned molars were ever-growing. Its legs were longer than those of other rhinos and were designed for galloping, giving it a horse-like gait. The Russian paleontologists of the 19th century who discovered and named the initial fossils were influenced by ancient legends of a huge unicorn roaming the steppes of Siberia. To date no evidence either contradicts or confirms the possibility that Elasmotherium survived into legendary times. The most reconstructed species is perhaps E. sibiricum by generations of scientists working at the Paleontological Museum in Moscow and elsewhere in Russia. The majority of the fossils fall or have fallen within their national jurisdiction. The dimensions and morphology of the various reconstructions vary considerably. They are for the most part estimating the gross details from the minutiae. However, they all agree on the general order of magnitude, that sibiricum was comparable to a Mammoth and was rather larger than the contemporary Woolly Rhinoceros. E. sibiricum had a measured shoulder height of approximately 2 metres (6.6 ft). To it, however, must be added the height of a massive hump anchored on the fin-like transverse processes extending from the top of the cervical vertebrae, a maximum of 53 centimetres (1.74 ft). The total height then was in excess of 253 centimetres (8.30 ft). The measured length of sibiricum (from a nearly complete skeleton found at Gaevskaya) is 4.5 metres (15 ft). Extrapolation from the greater size of caucasicum molars obtains a length of 5 metres (16 ft)—5.2 metres (17 ft) for caucasicum. According to Legendre's formula, E. sibiricum had a mass of over 4,000 kilograms (3.9 long tons; 4.4 short tons); E. caucasicum, 5,000 kilograms (4.9 long tons; 5.5 short tons). These weights place Elasmotherium in the "really huge" category of all Rhinocerotidae and therefore the animal was "strongly brachyopodial;" that is, they required feet of large contact area to prevent sinking into the soil. The feet were unguligrade, the front larger than the rear: purely tridactyl on Digits II-IV in the rear, but with an extra vestigial digit, I, in the front. ![]() Tyrannosaurus rex Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago. It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes. ![]() _____________________________________________________________
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| Spartan | May 10 2016, 04:41 AM Post #136 |
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Kleptoparasite
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^Yes, but T. rex is still a good deal heavier, so I'm not sure it's more agile. |
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| Ausar | May 10 2016, 04:55 AM Post #137 |
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Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can!
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^Oh, uhh, right. Forgot about that. But whether through greater mobility or greater weight, a certain tyrannosaur is having the rhino for dinner. To be fair though, the smallest adult Tyrannosaurus specimens are in the range of >4,000 kilograms and <5,000 kilograms. If Wikipedia's citation for E. caucasium being ~3,600-4,500kg is accurate, then they can overlap in size, and in a parity scenario, THEN Tyrannosaurus' anatomical characteristics allowing for overall superior mobility will DEFINITELY come into play. Edited by Ausar, May 10 2016, 04:58 AM.
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| buteo | May 10 2016, 05:29 AM Post #138 |
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Herbivore
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i didnt mention it would be an instant kill, i said t-rex end but probably horn would badly injure t-rex and when it fall rhino keep gore and kill t-rex, it is not made of steel yes but be sure it would slip through t-rex, even its skin so thick like an armor,rhinos horn would pierce it without much trouble |
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| Carcharadon | May 10 2016, 06:31 AM Post #139 |
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Shark Toothed Reptile
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Well, assuming it would even easily get the chance to effectively gore it in the first place more times than not. Tyrannosaurus can probably just bite onto the horn (like it was suspected to do so with Triceratops). And if Elasmotherium's horn looks rather thin, then it should seem rather easy to bite it off, then it would be pretty much hopeless afterwards. I see this as a predator-prey scenario. Edited by Carcharadon, May 10 2016, 06:32 AM.
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| Ausar | May 10 2016, 09:19 AM Post #140 |
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Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can!
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Tyrannosaurus either has a seeming size advantage to use against Elasmotherium or a mobility advantage at parity. Either of these things, plus its specialization for more or less similar prey items, and its devastating weapons should allow it to win more often than not. |
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| Grimace | May 10 2016, 10:24 AM Post #141 |
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Kleptoparasite
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My question is, if rex could apparently hunt triceratops why wouldn't this just be even easier for it? |
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| Nergigante | May 10 2016, 02:55 PM Post #142 |
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Carnivore
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I have a question myself, how did the t rex stand up if it was pushed to the floor? |
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| Gyirin | May 10 2016, 05:51 PM Post #143 |
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Omnivore
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I think it would roll over so its legs and arms are touching the ground and push itself up. I think it would take a while. Enough time for opponent like giant elephant to gore its side or belly. T.rex probably won't fare well with similar sized opponent with good durability, endurance and strenght to knock it over. Its only weapon is its size and jaws. I know T.rex bite is strong but seeing how Edmontosaurus survived a T.rex bite, and Stan the T.rex survived a fellow T.rex's bite to the skull, I'd say it won't be one bite instant kill like many people seems to think. Foe with good durability and strenght would be able to shook off the T.rex and knock it over. |
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| buteo | May 10 2016, 06:23 PM Post #144 |
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Herbivore
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rhinoceros are more fast and agile than triceratops and probably elasmotherium was more fast and agile than triceratops, can t-rex avoid charge by elasmotherium ? of course it can but it wouldnt have a chance to attack efficiently during this charge- i compare to modern rhinoceros and assume elasmotherium can run at 40-50 km/h , t-rex wouldnt do much against this fast moving robust beast, if elasmotherium couldnt move then t-rex would shred it to pieces without doubt but i think "momentum" is the most important advantage for elasmotherium here and a thick fur and thick skin would help, once elasmotheriums horn slipped through t-rex, t-rex would die afterwards, no animal can stand against such an attack |
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| Ausar | May 10 2016, 09:20 PM Post #145 |
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Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can!
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Please don't talk out of your rear end. If anything, ceratopsids should have been faster than rhinoceri (there is no info in regards to agility, but there is nothing supporting the idea of rhinos being proportionally more agile).
link Oh, and probably its powerful clawed legs. The specimen that comes to mind is the one that got its tail (ergo, not anything vital) bitten. I don't think this helps your case. Alternatively, this could say something about resilience. Edited by Ausar, May 10 2016, 11:14 PM.
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| Spartan | May 10 2016, 09:31 PM Post #146 |
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Kleptoparasite
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It's getting kinda ridiculous how people always assume it's that easy to knock giant theropods over just because they are bipedal. How is the rhino going to do this? If anything T. rex is in the better position to pull this off on Elasmotherium. |
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| buteo | May 10 2016, 11:18 PM Post #147 |
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Herbivore
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Any animal can be knocked over by this kind of charge, 5tons with 40-50 km/h velocity will become a superb momentum impact,and its horn would bring deadly injury can anyone doubt that? |
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| Spartan | May 10 2016, 11:33 PM Post #148 |
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Kleptoparasite
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Do any terrestrial animals charge at each other with maximum speed? Sounds like a rather dumb thing to do and also easy to dodge, especially since we can reasonably assume that T. rex had far superior visual senses. The rhino's best chance would rather be to avoid getting flanked or its horn bitten and try to gore the theropod in case it makes a bad move. |
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| Ausar | May 10 2016, 11:37 PM Post #149 |
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Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can!
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Actually, that really depends on just how useful the horn really was as a weapon (a question brought up earlier in this thread). But even assuming a practical-for-combat horn (as I am doing), Tyrannosaurus was, unfortunately for the rhino, more adapted for speed and thus should have been fast enough to outpace a high speed attack from it. And nitpicking here, but I think rhinoceri are more around 40-45 km/h, not quite around 50*. *Paul, G.S. (1998). Limb design, function and running performance in ostrich-mimics and tyrannosaurs. Gaia, 257-270. Edited by Ausar, May 10 2016, 11:45 PM.
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| Gyirin | May 10 2016, 11:45 PM Post #150 |
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Omnivore
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What its going to do with powerful clawed legs? It can't kick like some modern birds can do because it could lose its balance. Can't imagine a bipedal animal with long body, long tail using its hindlimb effectively. Its only weapon is its jaws and size. Only jaws if the opponent is similarly sized. Edmontosaurus got bit in the tail but it escaped and healed. Its not T.rex bite equals instant doom like many people thinks. I never claimed the steppe rhinoceros would win but I think animal like a very large proboscidean such as steppe mammoth can win against T.rex. |
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