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| Steppe Rhinoceros v Tyrannosaurus rex | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 10 2012, 06:44 PM (33,455 Views) | |
| Taipan | Feb 10 2012, 06:44 PM Post #1 |
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Steppe Rhinoceros - Elasmotherium caucasicum Elasmotherium ("Thin Plate Beast") is an extinct genus of giant rhinoceros endemic to Eurasia during the Late Pliocene through the Pleistocene, documented from 2.6 mya to as late as 50,000 years ago, possibly later, in the Late Pleistocene, an approximate span of slightly less than 2.6 million years. Three species are recognised. The best known, E. sibiricum was the size of a mammoth and is thought to have borne a large, thick horn on its forehead which was used for defense, attracting mates, driving away competitors, sweeping snow from the grass in winter and digging for water and plant roots. Like all rhinoceroses, elasmotheres were herbivorous. Unlike any others, its high-crowned molars were ever-growing. Its legs were longer than those of other rhinos and were designed for galloping, giving it a horse-like gait. The Russian paleontologists of the 19th century who discovered and named the initial fossils were influenced by ancient legends of a huge unicorn roaming the steppes of Siberia. To date no evidence either contradicts or confirms the possibility that Elasmotherium survived into legendary times. The most reconstructed species is perhaps E. sibiricum by generations of scientists working at the Paleontological Museum in Moscow and elsewhere in Russia. The majority of the fossils fall or have fallen within their national jurisdiction. The dimensions and morphology of the various reconstructions vary considerably. They are for the most part estimating the gross details from the minutiae. However, they all agree on the general order of magnitude, that sibiricum was comparable to a Mammoth and was rather larger than the contemporary Woolly Rhinoceros. E. sibiricum had a measured shoulder height of approximately 2 metres (6.6 ft). To it, however, must be added the height of a massive hump anchored on the fin-like transverse processes extending from the top of the cervical vertebrae, a maximum of 53 centimetres (1.74 ft). The total height then was in excess of 253 centimetres (8.30 ft). The measured length of sibiricum (from a nearly complete skeleton found at Gaevskaya) is 4.5 metres (15 ft). Extrapolation from the greater size of caucasicum molars obtains a length of 5 metres (16 ft)—5.2 metres (17 ft) for caucasicum. According to Legendre's formula, E. sibiricum had a mass of over 4,000 kilograms (3.9 long tons; 4.4 short tons); E. caucasicum, 5,000 kilograms (4.9 long tons; 5.5 short tons). These weights place Elasmotherium in the "really huge" category of all Rhinocerotidae and therefore the animal was "strongly brachyopodial;" that is, they required feet of large contact area to prevent sinking into the soil. The feet were unguligrade, the front larger than the rear: purely tridactyl on Digits II-IV in the rear, but with an extra vestigial digit, I, in the front. ![]() Tyrannosaurus rex Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago. It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes. ![]() _____________________________________________________________
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| Spartan | May 11 2016, 06:51 AM Post #181 |
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Kleptoparasite
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Even Horner himself didn't honestly believe T. rex was an obligate scavenger. |
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| buteo | May 11 2016, 07:07 AM Post #182 |
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Herbivore
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wait a minute almost every predator is scavenger but the question is how fast and agile t-rex was.paleontologists still cant say exact information because they find new findings , think about that people think t-rex was a cold blooded and bald reptile but new findings showed they were not cold blooded and they had colorful feathers, i say we cant claim about two extinct species, elasmotherium probably had behaviour like modern day rhinoceroses but even this may not be true, t-rex is also unknown so lets not underrate or overrate any animal here.if t-rex can dodge and attack rhinoceros efficiently it would have a chance to win but if elasmotherium can have a chance to gore its horn t-rex would be dead , we must consider every possibilities
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| Jinfengopteryx | May 11 2016, 07:10 AM Post #183 |
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Aspiring paleontologist, science enthusiast and armchair speculative fiction/evolution writer
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If every predator is a scavenger, isn't your point rather trivial? Maybe I misunderstood you, so what exactly was the reason for you bringing up the scavenger thing in the first place? As for the speed, it likely was pretty fast, but I don't have much time to explain this and Ausar can probably answer your speed question better than I can. Edited by Jinfengopteryx, May 11 2016, 07:11 AM.
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| buteo | May 11 2016, 07:15 AM Post #184 |
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Herbivore
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yes definetly i wonder about its speed but people here mention about t-rex speed but these infos are not certain because not all finding about t-rex is found yet, i say again if it was fast enough it would win otherwise elasmotherium would win
Edited by buteo, May 11 2016, 07:16 AM.
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| blaze | May 11 2016, 08:03 AM Post #185 |
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Carnivore
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How fast was Elasmotherium though? there are only two claims of running speed for modern rhinos in the literature, 25km/h for the white rhino and 45km/h for the black rhino, they are neither that different in size or limb proportions for such discrepancy to be realistic so one has to be wrong, the problem is that the publications from where they originate don't even bother to mention how they were obtained so their reliability is questionable. If I had to bet I'll say that of the white rhino is realistic, the difference between it and that of the black rhino is similar to the tall tale claims of elephant speed compared to actually recorded speed with modern equipment (25km/h vs 40km/h). Then again how straight-line speed factors into this? and why do people have the idea that rhinos charge and strike at full speed against everything? they charge and don't stop when dealing with much smaller animals than themselves, that they could just trample but against a similarly sized opponents they slow down upon approach and start jostling. Crashing at 50km/h with an 8 tonne T. rex is suicide. Edited by blaze, May 11 2016, 04:10 PM.
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| Ausar | May 11 2016, 08:34 AM Post #186 |
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Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can!
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If your suspicion regarding rhinoceros speed figures is correct, then rhinoceri would hardly be faster than elephants. But from what I've read, rhinoceri are more cursorial than elephants, so I thought they would be faster than elephants to some degree. As Mirounga leonina already said, your post quite strongly implied that you were placing at least some credence on the obligate scavenger hypothesis.
And then you recently said something like this:
You can see why this sh*t became somewhat confusing, right? Edited by Ausar, May 11 2016, 10:50 AM.
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| blaze | May 11 2016, 04:06 PM Post #187 |
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Carnivore
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@Ausar They have more cursorial proportions but their legs are short, both in proportion to their bodies and in absolute terms compared to elephants so they are at a disadvantage when it comes to stride length, their running has an aerial phase so that probably makes up for their stumpy legs, they could be faster but we have no proof either way. |
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| Gyirin | May 11 2016, 06:10 PM Post #188 |
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Omnivore
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T.rex was probably opportunist. Usually hunting but eating carcass when it finds one. No predator would pass up a free meal. |
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| Ausar | May 11 2016, 08:59 PM Post #189 |
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Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can!
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@blaze That's what I suspected. cat loves food, yeah yeah |
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| dinoman27 | May 12 2016, 10:18 AM Post #190 |
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Autotrophic Organism
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Do your think that a T-Rex's gastralia, reinforced by muscle and tough skin, would have been able to withstand a gore by Elasmotherium? By withstand I mean the gore would not get past the ribs into the vital organs |
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| blaze | May 12 2016, 02:38 PM Post #191 |
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Carnivore
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Maybe if the horn was blunter. But I'm not sure if the Elasmotherium could even reach the belly safely, to get there it has to pass about 2.5m of head and neck and it has to approach with it's own head held low, it wouldn't even reach the chest before it gets its neck or back of the head bitten. So the only option is going for the neck and the head but would its head-movement speed be fast enough for its attack to be a real threat? watching videos like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSLqrVAPCPI I have my doubts. |
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| buteo | May 12 2016, 05:20 PM Post #192 |
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Herbivore
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what if elasmotherium gore t-rex head under its jaw ? if rhino get fast and gain some momentum,horn is blunter or not doesnt matter, a superb impact would happen and since t-rex skin is not made of steel horn would slip into t-rex and i think elasmotherium s horn is better positioned and very much bigger than modern rhinoceros horns |
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| Gyirin | May 12 2016, 05:58 PM Post #193 |
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Omnivore
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T.rex head is too high in the air for steppe rhinoceros to reach. |
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| buteo | May 12 2016, 11:35 PM Post #194 |
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Herbivore
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but he said rhino has to pass t-rex head , probably t-rex bends over and maybe trying to protect its belly |
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| blaze | May 13 2016, 12:36 AM Post #195 |
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Carnivore
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When I said pass I didn't mean that they are low and in the way but that that's the distance between the head and the chest, even if the head is held high. What do you mean by gets fast and gains some momentum? are you still under the idea that rhinos fight similarly sized opponents like big horn sheep? btw, the record horn length for a living rhino is over 150cm, from a female white rhino, why female? probably because males use theirs for combat and long horns like that don't survive the stresses of combat, theirs doesn't reach much beyond 60cm. Edited by blaze, May 13 2016, 01:07 AM.
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but new findings showed they were not cold blooded and they had colorful feathers, i say we cant claim about two extinct species, elasmotherium probably had behaviour like modern day rhinoceroses but even this may not be true, t-rex is also unknown so lets not underrate or overrate any animal here.if t-rex can dodge and attack rhinoceros efficiently it would have a chance to win but if elasmotherium can have a chance to gore its horn t-rex would be dead , we must consider every possibilities

9:54 AM Jul 11