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| Steppe Rhinoceros v Tyrannosaurus rex | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 10 2012, 06:44 PM (33,452 Views) | |
| Taipan | Feb 10 2012, 06:44 PM Post #1 |
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Steppe Rhinoceros - Elasmotherium caucasicum Elasmotherium ("Thin Plate Beast") is an extinct genus of giant rhinoceros endemic to Eurasia during the Late Pliocene through the Pleistocene, documented from 2.6 mya to as late as 50,000 years ago, possibly later, in the Late Pleistocene, an approximate span of slightly less than 2.6 million years. Three species are recognised. The best known, E. sibiricum was the size of a mammoth and is thought to have borne a large, thick horn on its forehead which was used for defense, attracting mates, driving away competitors, sweeping snow from the grass in winter and digging for water and plant roots. Like all rhinoceroses, elasmotheres were herbivorous. Unlike any others, its high-crowned molars were ever-growing. Its legs were longer than those of other rhinos and were designed for galloping, giving it a horse-like gait. The Russian paleontologists of the 19th century who discovered and named the initial fossils were influenced by ancient legends of a huge unicorn roaming the steppes of Siberia. To date no evidence either contradicts or confirms the possibility that Elasmotherium survived into legendary times. The most reconstructed species is perhaps E. sibiricum by generations of scientists working at the Paleontological Museum in Moscow and elsewhere in Russia. The majority of the fossils fall or have fallen within their national jurisdiction. The dimensions and morphology of the various reconstructions vary considerably. They are for the most part estimating the gross details from the minutiae. However, they all agree on the general order of magnitude, that sibiricum was comparable to a Mammoth and was rather larger than the contemporary Woolly Rhinoceros. E. sibiricum had a measured shoulder height of approximately 2 metres (6.6 ft). To it, however, must be added the height of a massive hump anchored on the fin-like transverse processes extending from the top of the cervical vertebrae, a maximum of 53 centimetres (1.74 ft). The total height then was in excess of 253 centimetres (8.30 ft). The measured length of sibiricum (from a nearly complete skeleton found at Gaevskaya) is 4.5 metres (15 ft). Extrapolation from the greater size of caucasicum molars obtains a length of 5 metres (16 ft)—5.2 metres (17 ft) for caucasicum. According to Legendre's formula, E. sibiricum had a mass of over 4,000 kilograms (3.9 long tons; 4.4 short tons); E. caucasicum, 5,000 kilograms (4.9 long tons; 5.5 short tons). These weights place Elasmotherium in the "really huge" category of all Rhinocerotidae and therefore the animal was "strongly brachyopodial;" that is, they required feet of large contact area to prevent sinking into the soil. The feet were unguligrade, the front larger than the rear: purely tridactyl on Digits II-IV in the rear, but with an extra vestigial digit, I, in the front. ![]() Tyrannosaurus rex Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago. It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes. ![]() _____________________________________________________________
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| Nergigante | Aug 1 2016, 07:26 PM Post #226 |
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Carnivore
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Ok,thanks for correcting me. . . . |
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| Ausar | Aug 1 2016, 09:25 PM Post #227 |
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Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can!
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He isn't that much taller given the sheer size of Elasmotherium and given how rhinoceri don't exactly have the longest of legs relative to their size, I don't find this all that hard to believe. I can't really say if the legs are too gracile, I don't know about the torso length, and I might have to agree about the rest (although I'm not 100% certain). No, it doesn't. Triceratops' orbital horns face forward; the shafts would run directly towards Tyrannosaurus if it was facing the ceratopsian. Tyrannosaurus would need to turn its head/neck to bite the horn shaft, probably no more or less of a task than orienting its head to bite the horn shaft of Elasmotherium. With all due respect, I'm having a bit of trouble making sense of most of this part. What I can understand however, is your statement about Elasmotherium's speed relative to that of Triceratops. You have no evidence that Elasmotherium was faster and more maneuverable than Triceratops, or at least relatively speaking. If Elasmotherium really was more maneuverable, it most likely would have been because of its seemingly lighter weight. In regards to speed, the scientific literature seems to disagree. link Edited by Ausar, Aug 1 2016, 09:35 PM.
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| Gyirin | Aug 2 2016, 11:04 PM Post #228 |
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Omnivore
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The Steppe rhino knocks over the T.rex then stabs it into oblivion. |
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| Submit name request | Sep 26 2016, 05:12 PM Post #229 |
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Herbivore
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Lions hunt buffalo and tigers hunt guar - but that doesn't mean that the buffalo/guar shouldn't be favoured over the lions/tigers on most occasions. Scientiests a few million years from now may even find evidence of lions and tigers killing rhinos, hippos and elephants (which they have done on occasion) and imagine those cats to be some sort of killing machines that should be favoured against animals more than ten times their weight. |
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| Nergigante | Sep 26 2016, 11:32 PM Post #230 |
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Carnivore
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I had thinked about this for many days now, I gotta say I favor the rhino agaisnt the t rex now, the rhinoceros is similiar to the triceraptops but it has its differences, its horn its upwards, so no, sorry but rotating the head to bite the horn while its running at you actually sounds like bad idea as it would get either stabbed before it grapples the horn as it has bend over to do it and it could actually dislocate the jaw as the t rex could not contain a efficient grip with its head rotated and bending its body, the horn hitting the jaws when its in motion can dislocate the jaws, Its faster than the triceratops thanks to its smaller size bur that is my opinion and it lacks the frill which has its disadvantages aswell like the limited vision from behind, limited head motion , and its easier to grapple and its horrible thing to have if they are attacking from the sides, the t rex will not be capable to outflank the rhino by reasons stated before of the inertia, so the rex cannot outflank the rhino, it cannot strech its legs very far so it cannot "sidestep" or do it small steps as that would be to slow to actually evade the faster rhino, actually its more likely for the rhino to outflank the t rex more often than not because its lower to the ground and does not have the same problem of the inertia, the rhino could outflank the t rex and stabbed in the belly or the leg which would cripple it, making it a sure win for the rhino or it could hit a leg which knock out the t rex before it even reaches the rhino which has no frill, horn its upwards and its lower to the ground, also making it the faster of the two, so its my opinion that the rhino most likely wins agaisnt the t rex but losses to a triceratops but the t rex beats triceratops, So my opinion is like this: animal A: Rhino animal B:T rex animal C:Triceratops Its like animal A defeats animal B but Animal A cannot defeat animal C which in reverse can defeat animal A and animal B can defeat animal C but cannot defeat animal A. I hope its not very confusing as I am texting by phone |
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| spinosaurus rex | Sep 27 2016, 02:35 AM Post #231 |
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Carnivore
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triceratops horns is sloped at an upward angle to a degree that allows stationary goring attacks to be accomplished. this is especially true with species such as Triceratops porosus and Triceratops horridus ![]() ceratopsians in general also have specialized ball socket connections between the base of the head and the atlas. providing quick and spontaneous turning motions of their massive skulls in both vertical and horizontal planes. they have no issue with any form of rotational motion and are in no way inferior in this aspect to a rhino of smaller size and stature. added to this, ceratopsians forelimbs are semi sprawled and are capable of transitioning positions by pivoting their front section. this makes them very equipped for keeping targets out in front of them
you think the rhino of this size can dislocate a tyrannosaurus jaws? jaws that are renowned for providing excessive pressures of over 6 tons? i'm not picturing this happening by any majority of the circumstances. what would likely happen here is that the tyrannosaurus would likely catch the horn and apply a continuous amount of pressure until it eventually bite off the horn. at the same time, tyrannosaurus can thrash the smaller animal with the assistance of massive neck and leg muscles. this is only verified when the considerate size and bulk advantage is placed in the equation.
might i ask, when was the last time you seen a rhino outflank and managing to cripple a larger elephant? i have never seen a video or visual documentation of any rhino displaying such behavior. . and even if we take this ability into account, which in itself is unlikely, how will the rhino retaliate from sidestepping? as you stated, and remains verified, rhinos normally have very poor eyesight and are generally very bad at judging distance. how would the rhino accomplish such task without momentarily loosing sight or lacking the ability to judge the distance of the aggressor here? this is not a limitation tyrannosaurus has here. i normally wouldn't bring up things like vision on conflicts such as this, but you are making so many erroneous claims about the rhino managing to score hits with the theropod miraculously missing, while ignoring that odds are tyrannosaurus would be far better equipped to place precise and accurate bites then the rhino being able to gore with it's horn. tyrannosaurus has all the features of an apex predator and all the adaptions to support active pursuit and hunting. this includes eyesight. tyrannosaurus like most predators have binocular vision and the theropod here has a steller degree of it. rivaling humans in most regards, and. then theirs eyesight which was study in depth for tyrannosaurus and was found to be capable of identifying an object with visual acuity 13 times that of a human. this is an animal that excels at judging distance and direction. intern, it can place severe and accurate bites onto any section of the rhino. in the end, the tyrannosaurus is more likely to land a bite onto the rhino before it can even consider to try and outflank it ( while on that subject, i highly doubt the rhino is agile enough to make it impervious to a tyrannosaurus bite. after all, it's the theropod here that has the more curosial adaptions. the only thing that i can see that can rectify that is the smaller size, which still i doubt the rhino would be outflanking the theropod like a 4- 5 ton ninja) man, this is the longest post i made in months,
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| Ausar | Sep 27 2016, 02:37 AM Post #232 |
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Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can!
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The rhino's probably not outflanking the tyrannosaur (assuming rhinos even try to outflank opponents in conflict in the first place). Theropods tended to have flexible necks and torsos, giving them significant lateral reach, and hence obviating the need to turn all that quickly to snag something that tried to outflank them. Furthermore, when the tyrannosaur is moving to snatch the outflanking rhino, its own acceleration and speed compared to that of its opponent may be relevant in how successful it would be in catching it and hence successfully prevent getting outflanked. Tyrannosaurus had extremely huge leg muscles; I'd wager that they're bigger than the rhino's, and if that's the case, it likely possessed superior acceleration, and its more cursorial limb proportions suggest that it would have been faster. Edit: didn't see spinosaurus rex making a post while I was finishing mine, heh. Edited by Ausar, Sep 29 2016, 10:51 AM.
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| Submit name request | Sep 28 2016, 07:50 AM Post #233 |
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Herbivore
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You need a really significant agility and speed advantage to outmaneuvre another animal in the context of a attacking it from behind. Even if one animal is more agile than the other it is unlikely to be able outflank the other animal - you need to be much much more agile to accomplish that. I think it's safe to assume for this fight that the rhino and tyrannosaurus meet each other head on (with the assumption being that neither tries to flee, which is probably often the triceratops' downfall). |
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| Thergi | Jan 10 2017, 01:07 PM Post #234 |
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Autotrophic Organism
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While elasmotherium most likely could thrust it's horn harder than modern rhinoceri due to the robustidy of its neck and body, rhinoceri still don't really Impress me when it comes to reflexes at all, and I doubt the huge rhino would be that much different. Not that Tyrannosaurus was some giant ninja bird, but it most certainly had to be faster than this rhino, due to the insane eyesight advantage it had alone. Tyrannosaurus was likely a cursorial animal as well, and needed to be in order to have any chance against Triceratops. In my opinion, Tyrannosaurus Rex would take the majority here.
Edited by Thergi, Jan 10 2017, 01:08 PM.
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| HerpestidaeB4Cat | Jan 16 2017, 06:45 AM Post #235 |
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Herbivore
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the t-rex wins im shocked this went 16 pages |
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| Grazier | Jan 16 2017, 06:54 AM Post #236 |
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Omnivore
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I'm also shocked. Elasmo wins. |
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| Spartan | Jan 16 2017, 06:59 AM Post #237 |
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Kleptoparasite
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Against an animal half its size with inferior weaponry? |
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| Carnotaur | Jan 16 2017, 10:45 AM Post #238 |
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Saprotrophic Organism
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Tyrannosaurus was significantly bigger,probably had advantages in the agility departments,superior stamina and superior grappling abilities,as well as the fact that it probably faced big horned prey.Why favor the herbivore? |
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| Vivyx | Jan 17 2017, 01:30 AM Post #239 |
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Felines, sharks, birds, arthropods
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Not sure myself.... maybe just because it's a mammal? Maybe some of the votes on the polls are pity votes... I also favour the theropod. I see almost no advantage that Elasmotherium would bring to this fight. |
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| Mammuthus | Jan 17 2017, 02:05 AM Post #240 |
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Proboscidean Enthusiast
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That is true, but for some reason i think Elasmotheriums horn Is more effective for stabbing with. Don't know why TBH. It's probably wrong but maybe stability? Edited by Mammuthus, Jan 17 2017, 02:07 AM.
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