Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Carnivora. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Steppe Rhinoceros v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Feb 10 2012, 06:44 PM (33,466 Views)
Taipan
Member Avatar
Administrator

Steppe Rhinoceros - Elasmotherium caucasicum
Elasmotherium ("Thin Plate Beast") is an extinct genus of giant rhinoceros endemic to Eurasia during the Late Pliocene through the Pleistocene, documented from 2.6 mya to as late as 50,000 years ago, possibly later, in the Late Pleistocene, an approximate span of slightly less than 2.6 million years. Three species are recognised. The best known, E. sibiricum was the size of a mammoth and is thought to have borne a large, thick horn on its forehead which was used for defense, attracting mates, driving away competitors, sweeping snow from the grass in winter and digging for water and plant roots. Like all rhinoceroses, elasmotheres were herbivorous. Unlike any others, its high-crowned molars were ever-growing. Its legs were longer than those of other rhinos and were designed for galloping, giving it a horse-like gait. The Russian paleontologists of the 19th century who discovered and named the initial fossils were influenced by ancient legends of a huge unicorn roaming the steppes of Siberia. To date no evidence either contradicts or confirms the possibility that Elasmotherium survived into legendary times. The most reconstructed species is perhaps E. sibiricum by generations of scientists working at the Paleontological Museum in Moscow and elsewhere in Russia. The majority of the fossils fall or have fallen within their national jurisdiction. The dimensions and morphology of the various reconstructions vary considerably. They are for the most part estimating the gross details from the minutiae. However, they all agree on the general order of magnitude, that sibiricum was comparable to a Mammoth and was rather larger than the contemporary Woolly Rhinoceros. E. sibiricum had a measured shoulder height of approximately 2 metres (6.6 ft). To it, however, must be added the height of a massive hump anchored on the fin-like transverse processes extending from the top of the cervical vertebrae, a maximum of 53 centimetres (1.74 ft). The total height then was in excess of 253 centimetres (8.30 ft). The measured length of sibiricum (from a nearly complete skeleton found at Gaevskaya) is 4.5 metres (15 ft). Extrapolation from the greater size of caucasicum molars obtains a length of 5 metres (16 ft)—5.2 metres (17 ft) for caucasicum. According to Legendre's formula, E. sibiricum had a mass of over 4,000 kilograms (3.9 long tons; 4.4 short tons); E. caucasicum, 5,000 kilograms (4.9 long tons; 5.5 short tons). These weights place Elasmotherium in the "really huge" category of all Rhinocerotidae and therefore the animal was "strongly brachyopodial;" that is, they required feet of large contact area to prevent sinking into the soil. The feet were unguligrade, the front larger than the rear: purely tridactyl on Digits II-IV in the rear, but with an extra vestigial digit, I, in the front.

Posted Image

Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago. It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

Posted Image

_____________________________________________________________


Prehistoric Cat
Feb 10 2012, 01:07 AM
Tyrannosaurus Rex v Elasmotherium Caucasicum
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Replies:
Superpredator
Member Avatar
Apex Predator
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Don't think so that horn looks strong enough to break bone
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Megafelis Fatalis
Carnivore
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Pmammals
Feb 12 2012, 10:18 AM
The latest estimate mass about Sue is 9500 kg. Elasmotherium is less massive than T-rex, so it's strange that people favor a smaller herbivorous against a bigger carnivorous.
Would you favor a warthog against a lioness?


even so, Elasmotherium was as big as modern elephants, the largest elephant was 12,000kg (bigger than the biggest rex)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
coherentsheaf
Member Avatar
Kleptoparasite
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
12 tonne masses for elephant are very exceptional and not the rule and when researchers say that it was about as massive as an Elephant, they probably mean something in the 6tonne area.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Megafelis Fatalis
Carnivore
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
coherentsheaf
Feb 12 2012, 11:29 PM
12 tonne masses for elephant are very exceptional and not the rule and when researchers say that it was about as massive as an Elephant, they probably mean something in the 6tonne area.


yes i know, the average weight for Elasmotherium would be 5,000kg-6,000kg.
but he was talking about sue, the largest t-rex until know
Edited by Megafelis Fatalis, Feb 12 2012, 11:32 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
coherentsheaf
Member Avatar
Kleptoparasite
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
If the sample sizes for Tyrannosaurs were as large as those for Elephants, the largest one would probably be significantly bigger than Sue.

I think it is important to add that 9500kg is the minimal estimate they got for "Sue".
Here is a table of the Tyrannosaurus masses:
Posted Image

However, their estimates have stirred controversy, with Gregory Paul arguing vehemently for a lower body mass in the PLoS ONE comment section.

Sources:

John R. Hutchinson, Karl T. Bates, Julia Molnar, Vivian Allen, Peter J. Makovicky (2011). "A Computational Analysis of Limb and Body Dimensions in Tyrannosaurus rex with Implications for Locomotion, Ontogeny, and Growth"

Edit: Here you can see the aerage masses:
Posted Image
Edited by coherentsheaf, Feb 13 2012, 12:44 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
FireEel
Heterotrophic Organism
[ *  *  * ]
TheROC
Feb 12 2012, 05:34 AM
It was accustomed to hunting them, not fighting them.

And the ones he hunted had horns much smaller than Elasmotherium is reconstructed to have.
And Elasmotherium was accustomed to fending off predators much smaller than Tyrannosaurus Rex.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Anthropophagi
Unicellular Organism
[ * ]
I still stand with my opinion. True, the elasmotherium was certainly was more intelligent than triceratops but so was T-Rex. T-Rex would certainly face the risk of being gored by elasmotherium's horn but I can see ways he can get away with this. Horns of triceratops have shown damage from T-Rex's teeth, and sometimes they were broken off. It would be fair to assume these damages were caused by fights because the scenario of T-Rex biting the horns while it was dead would have been unlikely.

Tackling elasmotherium in a similar fashion could have been effective, and perhaps even easier to pull off. Triceratop's horns were smaller than elasmotherium's but it would be very risky to grab hold of one horn without getting impaled by the other. Elasmotherium has only one, which makes this technique easier to execute (but still dangerous nonetheless).
Edited by Anthropophagi, Feb 13 2012, 02:08 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Temnospondyl
Stegocephalia specialist.
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
deemwhy
Feb 11 2012, 04:51 AM
elasmotherium.
yeah
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cidermaster
Omnivore
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
The Rhino is not only agile for its huge powerfull frame but far more intelligent than the dinosaurs that T Rex is used to hunting.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
DinosaurMichael
Member Avatar
Apex Predator
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
cidermaster
Apr 12 2012, 04:44 AM
The Rhino is not only agile for its huge powerfull frame but far more intelligent than the dinosaurs that T Rex is used to hunting.
Keep in mind intelligence doesn't play a role in fights when it is in the animal kingdom. I mean Seals are smarter than Great Whites yet they still fall prey to them.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Rai'Drik
Member Avatar
Autotrophic Organism
[ *  * ]
Might I note the Rhinoceros was not used to encountering carnivores nearly as large and dangerous as a Rex. People often forget just how important behavior is in a bout. And even if the rhino does charge and not turn tail and run, its short (relatively), likely blunt horn and incredibly poor eyesight means it will not likely be able to pull off the 'gore-instant kill' as often as it missed and leaves itself wide open.
Keep in mind the dinosaur weighs up to twice as much as the rhino when both are at top size, and could likely shove the rhino over by bumping, kicking; or ramming it.

As stated above, it almost seems that Rex's understood the threat horns pose, and would intentionally go for them to disable and disarm prey. As stable and big as it was, a Elasmo can't out power a dinosaur substantially larger then it was

If rhinos were as unstoppable as I see some members on this site make them out to be, we'd find dead elephants everywhere. Rhinos are very powerful and dangerous animals, but against a species even larger then they are, their power is far diminished
Edited by Rai'Drik, Apr 12 2012, 05:42 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cidermaster
Omnivore
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
I think if the T Rex ambushes the Rhino it should be successfull,but head to head to Rhino should be successfull.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Elosha11
Herbivore
[ *  *  *  * ]
coherentsheaf
Feb 13 2012, 12:07 AM
If the sample sizes for Tyrannosaurs were as large as those for Elephants, the largest one would probably be significantly bigger than Sue.

I think it is important to add that 9500kg is the minimal estimate they got for "Sue".
Here is a table of the Tyrannosaurus masses:
Posted Image

However, their estimates have stirred controversy, with Gregory Paul arguing vehemently for a lower body mass in the PLoS ONE comment section.

Sources:

John R. Hutchinson, Karl T. Bates, Julia Molnar, Vivian Allen, Peter J. Makovicky (2011). "A Computational Analysis of Limb and Body Dimensions in Tyrannosaurus rex with Implications for Locomotion, Ontogeny, and Growth"

Edit: Here you can see the aerage masses:
Posted Image
Coherentsleaf has made a very important point in determining the size of extinct animals. You cannot simply take the estimated size of the largest known specimen and conclude that estimate represents the largest size of the species. Sue might be a very large T-Rex. The Livyatan holotype might be a very large individual. But precisely because the sample size is so small for these species, it is sheer folly to claim they represent the maximum size for their species. Think about it. For the millions of years that apex predators such as T-Rex, Spinosaurus, Megalodon, Livyatan, and countless other predators existed as species, millions, if not billions, of individuals for each species walked upon the earth. Today we have faint traces of a few of them. Statistically, it is virtually impossible that the fossil fragments that survived can be classified as anything other than perhaps large, average, or juvenile specimens. If a T-rex or steppe rhinoceros is discovered tomorrow that is significantly larger than the known specimens, we cannot say definitively those are the largest specimens, just that the evidence now supports a larger size than what was previously determined.

Now if we were so fortunate to stumble upon hundreds of fossils of one of these creatures, then perhaps we could better extrapolate average and maximum sizes with more precision. But since that is highly unlikely, we should not be so quick to base our exact figures on holotypes.


As to this particular conflict, I think it appears that the T-Rex is significantly larger than the steppe rhino and was used to fighting Triceratops, which were arguably more dangerous than the rhinoceros. I'd give this to the T-Rex 6/10.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Goncalo
Member Avatar
Unicellular Organism
[ * ]
the t-rex wins size and weight advantage,much more muscle(at his time he take down dinossaurs).
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
GrizzlyBear
Autotrophic Organism
[ *  * ]
That rhino was a beast, based on the sketch the rhino wins IMO, that giant horn is too deadly and the rhino seems more powerfully build and stable. The T-Rex cant do much to stop a charge from the giant rhino.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Interspecific Conflict · Next Topic »
Add Reply