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Lion Coalition of 3 Lions v Black Rhinoceros
Topic Started: Feb 18 2012, 08:04 PM (14,285 Views)
Taipan
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Lion Coalition of 3 Lions - Panthera leo
The lion (Panthera leo) is one of the four big cats in the genus Panthera, and a member of the family Felidae. With some males exceeding 250 kg (550 lb) in weight, it is the second-largest living cat after the tiger. Wild lions currently exist in Sub-Saharan Africa and in Asia with an endangered remnant population in Gir Forest National Park in India, having disappeared from North Africa and Southwest Asia in historic times. Until the late Pleistocene, about 10,000 years ago, the lion was the most widespread large land mammal after humans. They were found in most of Africa, across Eurasia from western Europe to India, and in the Americas from the Yukon to Peru. The lion is a vulnerable species, having seen a possibly irreversible population decline of thirty to fifty percent over the past two decades in its African range. The African lion is a very large cat, with males weighing between 330 and 550 pounds and females weighing between 260 and 400 pounds. It is 8 to 10 feet long, not including the tail. Its most famous feature is its mane, which only male lions have. The mane is a yellow color when the lion is young and darkens with age. Eventually, the mane will be dark brown. The body of the African lion is well suited for hunting. It is very muscular, with back legs designed for pouncing and front legs made for grabbing and knocking down prey. It also has very strong jaws that enable it to eat the large prey that it hunts.

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Black Rhinoceros - Diceros bicornis
An adult Black Rhinoceros stands 140–170 cm (57.9–63 inches) high at the shoulder and is 3.3-3.6 m (10.8–11.8 feet) in length. An adult weighs from 800 to 1364 kg (1,760 to 3,000 lb), but sometimes grows up to 1818 kg (4,000 lb), The females are smaller than the males. Two horns on the skull are made of keratin with the larger front horn typically 50 cm long, exceptionally up to 140 cm. The longest known horn measured nearly 5 feet in length. Sometimes, a third smaller horn may develop. These horns are used for defense, intimidation, and digging up roots and breaking branches during feeding. Skin color depends more on local soil conditions and the rhinoceros' wallowing behavior than anything else, so many black rhinos are typically not truly black in color. The Black Rhino is much smaller than the White Rhino, and has a long, pointed, and prehensile upper lip, which it uses to grasp leaves and twigs when feeding. White Rhinoceros have square lips used for eating grass. The Black Rhinoceros can also be recognized from the White Rhinoceros by its smaller skull and ears. Black Rhinoceros also do not have a distinguishing shoulder hump like the White Rhinoceros.

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_______________________________________________________________________

Jerrico
Feb 18 2012, 08:43 AM
Black Rhino vs Coalition of two male Lions.


I made it three if that's OK
Edited by Taipan, Oct 22 2012, 05:08 PM.
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blaze
Sep 23 2014, 11:18 AM
What about the accounts mentioned above of lions killing female White rhinos which are much bigger than black rhinos? what about the accounts already in the scientific literature of lions killing subadult black rhinos without problems?
Lol, I actually read tot he end of page 2, thought that was the last post, before I posted myself. So I hadn't seen your and asadas' posts.


I've now had a look at Asadas posts. I have had some trouble with his links. The two I quote from below are the only ones I was able to open (there appear to be multiple links to the same travelblog site).

Of the two I have been able to open, one was a travel blog, which said this:
We also spotted a male lion in the tall grass and as we approached, we realized that two brothers had managed to kill a fully grown female rhino. Our guide, Pule, was beside himself because he didn't think that a pair of relatively inexperienced lions (they know all the lions in the reserve by name) could take down a rhino, but as he said, "Miracles do happen".

The other, which appears to be a scientifc paper, says this in the abstract:
Actual observations of black rhinoceros predation are rarely reported and are limited to two incidences involving subadults. Nevertheless, some authors attribute tail and ear deformities in up to 7.1% of some populations to predation attempts. In August 2008 we observed a mother with dependent c. 8-month-old female black rhinoceros calf in Hluhluwe-iMfolozi Park, South Africa. The calf had a recently amputated tail, wounds to the anogenital region, right posterior flank and right side of the neck resembling a lion attack. Thirteen days later and on three subsequent occasions, the mother was sighted alone, suggesting that the calf had succumbed to its injuries. This incident provides evidence to suggest a link between attempted lion predation and tail amputation in black rhinoceros. Significantly, it implies that amputated tails and ears throughout Africa may represent failed depredation attempts and that calf predation may be more prevalent than previously appreciated. Predation is seldom considered in the management of black rhinoceros but should be when attributing cause to poor population performance of this critically endangered species.

The African Zoology article was only able to identify two reports of black rhino predation (as at 2009), in both cases involving sub-adult rhinos.

The travel blog (which is also 2009, so perhaps came after the African Zoology article) was described as a "miracle" by the guide (the only person present with relevant expertise).

So to answer your question:
- I think the one incident of 2 lions killing a female rhino (of unknown condition) was a one off aberation (like the human killing the leopard). As I understand it (from you) rhinos vary significantly in size?
- I don't think accouts of (an unknown number of) lions killing immature rhinos adds much to a debate about an adult rhino vs lions.

So I still favour the rhino.
Edited by Submit name request, Sep 23 2014, 12:21 PM.
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blaze
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Rhinos don't vary that much in size but there is a lot of myths about their size, probably because of hunter tall tales, the few surveys of black rhino have found little sexual dimorphism and weights of around 1 tonne on average for adults

Isn't in the previous pages an African zoology paper from 1999? they report 3 cases of 3 male lions killing subadult black rhino about 130cm tall at the shoulder, this attacks happened during a period of 4 months, seems like the most recent article didn't do their research.

According to the info in Denney (1969), captured rhinos classified as immature average some 700kg (I'm ignoring a 400kg female that I think is much younger than the others), giving how the average adult is around 1 tonne, it doesn't seem like an adult would be that much bigger.
Edited by blaze, Sep 23 2014, 12:59 PM.
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blaze
Sep 23 2014, 12:42 PM
Rhinos don't vary that much in size but there is a lot of myths about their size, probably because of hunter tall tales, the few surveys of black rhino have found little sexual dimorphism and weights of around 1 tonne on average for adults

Isn't in the previous pages an African zoology paper from 1999? they report 3 cases of 3 male lions killing subadult black rhino about 130cm tall at the shoulder, this attacks happened during a period of 4 months, seems like the most recent article didn't do their research.

According to the info in Denney (1969), captured rhinos classified as immature average some 700kg (I'm ignoring a 400kg female that I think is much younger than the others), giving how the average adult is around 1 tonne, it doesn't seem like an adult would be that much bigger.
I'm not sure which publication you are referring to from 1999 (maybe one of the links that I was unable to open). The one I quoted from was this one:
http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.3377/004.044.0216

It says in several places that is is from 2009, although that might be only the date it was published.

I take your point that a sub-adult black rhino may be 70%+ the size of an adult, but a 200kg black would also be sub-adult. In the same way that 15 year old human and a 5 year old human are both sub-adult. Unless you are saying that "sub-adult" has some scientific meaning that includes only animals that are near maturity? Otherwise, we cannot know how old the sub-adult rhinos taken by lions are.

Rhinos and lions co-exist. It seems to me that if lions frequently killed rhinos, this would be widely known - but there seems to be only a handful of (somewhat ambiguous) accounts. I don't think a very small number of reports of one animal killing another (especially when the two species encounter each other often) are that persuasive. On occassions a far weaker animal may kill a far more powerful one. An example of this is a beaver recently killing a fit male adult human.
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blaze
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The study I'm talking about was in page two of this thread.

The paper describes them as 3-4 years olds based on tooth eruption, meaning that they are on the verge of sexual maturity (Hillman-Smith and Groves, 1994) so them weighted about 800kg is not out of the question either, this will be consistent with Greg Paul's volumetric model estimate of 1050kg for a 140cm tall rhino. (Paul 1997).

And actually yes, subadult is closer in meaning to teenager, the equivalent designation for a 5 year old human child will be calf.
Edited by blaze, Sep 23 2014, 01:05 PM.
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blaze
Sep 23 2014, 01:02 PM
The study I'm talking about was in page two of this thread.

The paper describes them as 3-4 years olds based on tooth eruption, meaning that they are on the verge of sexual maturity (Hillman-Smith and Groves, 1994) so them weighted about 800kg is not out of the question either, this will be consistent with Greg Paul's volumetric model estimate of 1050kg for a 140cm tall rhino. (Paul 1997).

And actually yes, subadult is closer in meaning to teenager, the equivalent designation for a 5 year old human child will be calf.
Ok, you meant Taipan's account.

I took that account as supporting the adult rhino over the three lions.

The three were all 3-4 years old, which is at the lower end pf the sub-adult range (described as 3-5 years). You say they were on the verge of sexual maturirty, which makes them comparable to 12 year olds in human terms. I suggest there is a vast difference in power between a 60kg twelve year old boy and an 80kg man. Likewise there must be a large difference in power between a 3 year old 750kg (say) sub-adult and an 1100kg adult. From the analogy with humans I suggest that adults increase in strength and fighting ability from the age of sexual maturity to full-adulthood is disproportionatly higher than their increase in wieght.

This is supported by the articles hypothesis that the sub-adults were preferred as prey to the nearby claves (which I assume to be >3 years) because the lions were deterred by the presence of the mothers in proximity to the calves.

The article mentioned that the three incidents were contrary to what was usually understood to be the relationship between these species with predation on sub-adults described as isolated.

The only one of the incidents described had four lions against one sub-adult rhino. In this case we are talking about 3 lions against an adult.

There was also mention in the article of a female adult rhino killing a lion who threatened her calf, which shows that lions are not so quick as to be able to infallibly avoid rhino lunges.

I think the psychology of the rhino (the sub adult, whose death was observed) was also interesting. The article says that he/she was not concerned by the presence of the lions, which suggests that (at least so far as this rhino knew) even sub-adult rhinos are usually too poweful for lions.
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blaze
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Or maybe they just don't know better, after all they were accustomed to lions ignoring them when they are with their mothers, killing black rhinos also appears to not be a widely distributed behavior in lions so the rhinos don't have the instinct nor where they thought to fear them.

I don't know from where you got that the subadult range is 3-5 years because Hillman-Smith and Groves (1994) says that minimum age at first conception (definitive sign of sexual maturity) observed in different populations ranges from 3.5 to 3.9 years old. They also cite Hitchins (1970) as a 3 year old being only slightly smaller than its mother.

The incident described was not 4 lions against the subadult, read it again, the attack was carried out by the 3 males only, one went for the throat while the other two jumped on its back, once the rhino was in the ground one of the lions that attacked the back when for the throat too, all of this took them 4 minutes, yes they mention another incident somewhere else of an adult female killing a lion but we don't know neither the age or sex or experience of that lion, could have been a young adult female for all we know.

The description of one of the other incidents also sheds light on another possible tactic they might use, wounding of the hind quarters is a technique used by tigers on elephants.
Edited by blaze, Sep 23 2014, 03:05 PM.
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blaze
Sep 23 2014, 02:44 PM
Or maybe they just don't know better, after all they were accustomed to lions ignoring them when they are with their mothers, killing black rhinos also appears to not be a widely distributed behavior in lions so the rhinos don't have the instinct nor where they thought to fear them.

I don't know from where you got that the subadult range is 3-5 years because Hillman-Smith and Groves (1994) says that minimum age at first conception (definitive sign of sexual maturity) observed in different populations ranges from 3.5 to 3.9 years old. They also cite Hitchins (1970) as a 3 year old being only slightly smaller than its mother.

The incident described was not 4 lions against the subadult, read it again, the attack was carried out by the 3 males only, one went for the throat while the other two jumped on its back, once the rhino was in the ground one of the lions that attacked the back when for the throat too, all of this took them 4 minutes, yes they mention another incident somewhere else of an adult female killing a lion but we don't know neither the age or sex or experience of that lion, could have been a young adult female for all we know.

The description of one of the other incidents also sheds light on another possible tactic they might use, wounding of the hind quarters is a technique used by tigers on elephants.
The sub-adult range of black rhinocersous's being 3 to 5 years was taken from the same article. On the 18th line of the first paragraphs it says "Sub adult rhinocerous's (3-5 years) are capable of inflicting harm or killing threatening predators....". This is consistant with your comment that rhinos reach sexual maturity at abotu 3 1/2 years.

Animals (certainly humans) reach sexual maturity years before they reach adulthood. A 12 year old boys will often be slightly smaller (or even larger) than his mother, but this does not mean he is an adult.

I find it a bit tough to make the leap from a handful of incidences of a group of lions getting the better of a sub-adult to the suggestion that they should be favoured (not merely given a chance, but favoured) against an adult, where there is also suggestion that the same group of lions was unwilling to attack female adult rhinos (or the claves accompanying them).

I don't suggest that the rhino would win 10/10, but I do think it (an adult) would win more often than not.

Edited by Submit name request, Sep 24 2014, 07:59 AM.
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tigerburningbright
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Most of those "kill accounts" are likely scavenges....As far as I am concerned if the narrator didn't witness the attack/kill then it should be considered nothing more than a scavenge....

There are tons of Lion vs Black Rhino interactions and in the vast majority of cases the Rhino chases the Lion away...The Black Rhino is the dominant animal even over multiple Lions....and imo that's much more telling than the rare fluke Lion kill which likely involved young/sick/injured Rhinos....

Predators frequently target sick/weak/injured animals and all prey animals (all animals in general) get sick/weak/injured etc....Doesn't mean much when talking about healthy Adult Animals.The Black Rhino is generally the dominant animal over even multiple animals....but is to slow to catch/kill a Lion....Imo Lions can only take down a young/sick/injured Rhino....and MAYBE on rare fluke occasions a healthy adult

Black Rhinos are one of the most aggressive herbivores in the entire animal kingdom...


Here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJrvfMdK2ww

and here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GgiUdgc4oQ

and here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqyLn7pSaXw

and here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0jdsC6mw5o

and here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoXAwkqNnLY

and here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qnl3tUawGCQ
Edited by tigerburningbright, Sep 24 2014, 10:21 AM.
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tigerburningbright
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blaze
Sep 23 2014, 12:42 PM
Rhinos don't vary that much in size but there is a lot of myths about their size, probably because of hunter tall tales, the few surveys of black rhino have found little sexual dimorphism and weights of around 1 tonne on average for adults

Isn't in the previous pages an African zoology paper from 1999? they report 3 cases of 3 male lions killing subadult black rhino about 130cm tall at the shoulder, this attacks happened during a period of 4 months, seems like the most recent article didn't do their research.

According to the info in Denney (1969), captured rhinos classified as immature average some 700kg (I'm ignoring a 400kg female that I think is much younger than the others), giving how the average adult is around 1 tonne, it doesn't seem like an adult would be that much bigger.
White Rhinos can vary alot in size (Males are generally significantly bigger than Females)....But I believe both Male and Female Black Rhinos are about 1800-2600lbs in weight on average. Some do get bigger than that, but it's fairly rare.

Black Rhinos are very aggressive animals....They aren't that much bigger than Male Cape Buffaloes and travel solo (as opposed to in herds like Buffalo) yet they are almost never preyed upon by any predator....They also have poor eyesight at night (which you would think was a disadvantage) and are still rarely preyed upon (predators often hunt at night)....That's very telling.

Black Rhinos are generally completely dominant over Lions...and that says much more than the rare account of predation which for all we know involved sick/injured Rhinos (animals get sick all the time)....and not healthy Rhinos.

blaze
Sep 23 2014, 12:42 PM


I don't know from where you got that the subadult range is 3-5 years because Hillman-Smith and Groves (1994) says that minimum age at first conception (definitive sign of sexual maturity) observed in different populations ranges from 3.5 to 3.9 years old. They also cite Hitchins (1970) as a 3 year old being only slightly smaller than its mother.


There is no "set age range" for sub-adult Black Rhinos....It would vary among different Black Rhino populations in different geographical areas and different environments as it does for all animals...Lions from Kruger National Park do not reach sexual maturity at the same age as Lions from the Kalahari Desert etc etc etc....and the same would hold true for Black Rhinos..

Liquor Box
Sep 23 2014, 12:42 PM


Rhinos and lions co-exist. It seems to me that if lions frequently killed rhinos, this would be widely known - but there seems to be only a handful of (somewhat ambiguous) accounts. I don't think a very small number of reports of one animal killing another (especially when the two species encounter each other often) are that persuasive. On occasions a far weaker animal may kill a far more powerful one. An example of this is a beaver recently killing a fit male adult human.


Yep agreed 100 percent...Not to mention there are so many other outside variables (that aren't accounted for on a website like this) that can make or break a predation attempt....Notice how in one of the youtube clips I posted, the Rhino tripped while it was in the waterhole and almost fell over...The Rhino could have easily broken it's leg or not been able to get up and then it would have been easy prey for the Lions....That didn't happen as the Rhino was able to regain it's footing and get back to its feet, but if it did happen would that have been considered a fair account of predation by the Lions on the Rhino?? Would that have counted as a "win" for the Lions or just an outside variable that doomed the Rhino that had nothing to do with the strength and hunting abilities of the Lions.

Predators FREQUENTLY target sick/injured/weak prey items....For all we know those few rare accounts of Lions killing Black Rhinos may have been sick/injured/weak Rhinos....Predators don't "fight fair" and that's a good thing as it helps to maintain a healthy and strong ecosystem.

There are no Cape Buffalo in Etosha National Park....Yet Lions still almost never predate on Black Rhinos....You would think that if they could do it they would especially since their are no large Bovids in the park for them to predate on....Yet they just stick to Warthogs, Zebras, and Giraffes and other smaller prey items..
Edited by tigerburningbright, Sep 24 2014, 10:56 AM.
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blaze
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@Liquor Box
Black rhino's are not humans, adult females and adult males are about the same size and if a 3 year old is only slightly smaller than its mother then it is pretty big, I never said we count them as adults just that they are not much smaller than an "official" adult nor are they far away from being adults themselves.

What exactly then makes an adult a harder catch than the almost as big subadult? strength comes from muscle mass and muscle mass influences weight and thus overall mass, if the subadults are almost as big then they can't be that much weaker physically, the most obvious difference it seems is the size of the horns, the 3 subadults had an anterior horns only about 20cm long, as far as I know adults have anterior horns at least twice if not 3 times as long.

I'm not saying they should be completely favored but just look at the other comments, very few are even given them a chance.

@tigerburningbright
In the 1999 article the rhino's carcasses were analyzed, they concluded they died from strangulation, ie, the lions killed them, none of them were said to have been sick or injured.

It is obviously not common for lions to kill black rhino but as the case of the 3 males proves, this is a learned behavior that no many or any other known prides indulge in as far as we know. Most of the videos you provided showed rhinos similar in size to the ones killed by the 3 males, small horns and all, that these prides prefer to leave them alone suggest they don't know how to kill them like the 3 males do rather than that being a testament for lions being incapable of doing it.

There has never been any scientific study that measured a sizable amount of white rhinos... or more than one for that matter, we don't know how variable is their weight nor we know exactly how pronounced is their sexual dimorphism. There are lots of sites on the internet claiming averages and that they usually get this big and rarely this big but this is all fiction, there's no scientific publication behind it.

But you are right, black rhino are only about that big.
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Molosser
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I'm pretty sure it's more usual for the lions to run away..

I favor the rhino.. These lions wouldn't want to get on its bad side..
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Asadas
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tigerburningbright
Sep 24 2014, 10:36 AM
blaze
Sep 23 2014, 12:42 PM
Rhinos don't vary that much in size but there is a lot of myths about their size, probably because of hunter tall tales, the few surveys of black rhino have found little sexual dimorphism and weights of around 1 tonne on average for adults

Isn't in the previous pages an African zoology paper from 1999? they report 3 cases of 3 male lions killing subadult black rhino about 130cm tall at the shoulder, this attacks happened during a period of 4 months, seems like the most recent article didn't do their research.

According to the info in Denney (1969), captured rhinos classified as immature average some 700kg (I'm ignoring a 400kg female that I think is much younger than the others), giving how the average adult is around 1 tonne, it doesn't seem like an adult would be that much bigger.
White Rhinos can vary alot in size (Males are generally significantly bigger than Females)....But I believe both Male and Female Black Rhinos are about 1800-2600lbs in weight on average. Some do get bigger than that, but it's fairly rare.

Black Rhinos are very aggressive animals....They aren't that much bigger than Male Cape Buffaloes and travel solo (as opposed to in herds like Buffalo) yet they are almost never preyed upon by any predator....They also have poor eyesight at night (which you would think was a disadvantage) and are still rarely preyed upon (predators often hunt at night)....That's very telling.

Black Rhinos are generally completely dominant over Lions...and that says much more than the rare account of predation which for all we know involved sick/injured Rhinos (animals get sick all the time)....and not healthy Rhinos.

blaze
Sep 23 2014, 12:42 PM


I don't know from where you got that the subadult range is 3-5 years because Hillman-Smith and Groves (1994) says that minimum age at first conception (definitive sign of sexual maturity) observed in different populations ranges from 3.5 to 3.9 years old. They also cite Hitchins (1970) as a 3 year old being only slightly smaller than its mother.


There is no "set age range" for sub-adult Black Rhinos....It would vary among different Black Rhino populations in different geographical areas and different environments as it does for all animals...Lions from Kruger National Park do not reach sexual maturity at the same age as Lions from the Kalahari Desert etc etc etc....and the same would hold true for Black Rhinos..

Liquor Box
Sep 23 2014, 12:42 PM


Rhinos and lions co-exist. It seems to me that if lions frequently killed rhinos, this would be widely known - but there seems to be only a handful of (somewhat ambiguous) accounts. I don't think a very small number of reports of one animal killing another (especially when the two species encounter each other often) are that persuasive. On occasions a far weaker animal may kill a far more powerful one. An example of this is a beaver recently killing a fit male adult human.


Yep agreed 100 percent...Not to mention there are so many other outside variables (that aren't accounted for on a website like this) that can make or break a predation attempt....Notice how in one of the youtube clips I posted, the Rhino tripped while it was in the waterhole and almost fell over...The Rhino could have easily broken it's leg or not been able to get up and then it would have been easy prey for the Lions....That didn't happen as the Rhino was able to regain it's footing and get back to its feet, but if it did happen would that have been considered a fair account of predation by the Lions on the Rhino?? Would that have counted as a "win" for the Lions or just an outside variable that doomed the Rhino that had nothing to do with the strength and hunting abilities of the Lions.

Predators FREQUENTLY target sick/injured/weak prey items....For all we know those few rare accounts of Lions killing Black Rhinos may have been sick/injured/weak Rhinos....Predators don't "fight fair" and that's a good thing as it helps to maintain a healthy and strong ecosystem.

There are no Cape Buffalo in Etosha National Park....Yet Lions still almost never predate on Black Rhinos....You would think that if they could do it they would especially since their are no large Bovids in the park for them to predate on....Yet they just stick to Warthogs, Zebras, and Giraffes and other smaller prey items..
A 1000 kg white rhino is off the menue but lions predate on Rhinos far more frequently than smaller Asian rhinos bytigers

your scavenging theory though possible is based on an old book before any recent studies..

http://books.google.com/books?id=B_07noCPc4kC&pg=RA3-PA464&lpg=RA3-PA464&dq=Lion+predation+white+rhino&source=bl&ots=u261PJ08fG&sig=bFS2grEo3lsT23nNyOATYdzcN1o&hl=en&sa=X&ei=efYiVLjXFI6xyASo9oDAAw&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Lion%20predation%20white%20rhino&f=false

Lion predation on black rhinoceros (Diceros bicornis) in Etosha National Park
Posted Image

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2028.1999.00137.x/abstract

http://www.rhinoresourcecenter.com/pdf_files/117/1175858056.pdf

http://books.google.com/books?id=fqC_4VGCRkEC&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=lion+predation+black+rhinos&source=bl&ots=M1KbSLVdK7&sig=4X4c06rOkIrpPGm6bExRC8Dlo5Y&hl=en&sa=X&ei=K_UiVM6BOYu3yATp_IKQCQ&ved=0CEwQ6AEwBjgK#v=onepage&q=lion%20predation%20black%20rhinos&f=false

13. The white rhino is the largest rhino species and the largest land mammal after the elephant.
White rhinos can grow to weigh more than 5,000 pounds, which is almost as much as a Land Rover rolling along on the Serengeti. Next in size is the Indian or greater one-horned rhino, which may actually stand taller than a white rhino, but is just a bit less massive. Then come the Javan rhino and the black rhino. The Sumatran rhino is the smallest of its kind, with the largest individuals barely reaching a ton in weight.

17. Humans are the major threat to rhinos, but several other species are also rhino predators.
The two species most often reported to prey upon rhinos – usually young ones – are lions in Africa and tigers in Asia.

http://www.rhinos.org/25-things-you-didn-t-know-about-rhinos
Posted Image
.. page 83.. Adult rhino and adult gaur are rarely killed (Figure 33), but tigers occasionally killed herbivore.. Most of the prey killed by tigers weighed about 50-100 kg,..Melvil E Sunquist

http://animalcreativity.w...172024-SCtZ0336Lores.pdf
Posted Image
Black rhino, at around 1000kg in an adult, are half the size of their much larger white cousins. As a result they are prone to a very different predatory pressure and in particular regions such as Etosha in northern Namibia and in Hluhluwe-Umfolozi in South Africa they have been recorded at various ages as falling prey to lion and even spotted hyaena.

In most cases it is the calves that are preyed on, despite the best efforts of the very protective, mobile and aggressive mothers. The scars of unsuccessful attacks are worn long into adulthood in some animals and a missing ear or tip of the tail is a good indication of this having happened. Even young adults are known to have succumbed to lion on occasion.

http://www.africatravelresource.com/africa/namibia/nc/etosha/etoshas/ongava-main-lodge/guide/updates/

01-2014
..A ranger was seriously hurt by an injured black rhino in the Mkuze game reserve in Zululand on Thursday afternoon
..“We cannot speculate as we have not examined the animal yet, but the injury could be from a failed poaching attempt or an attack by another animal.”

http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/kwazulu-natal/ranger-injured-by-bleeding-rhino-1.1640050#.VCL49hYhThY

The coalition of six male lions has struck fear into the big grazers at Exeter over the past few days. As if the four lions killing a Rhino were not enough, a single male (from the coalition) has just killed an adult female Giraffe. Not only is it impressive because a lone lion killed an adult Giraffe, but the kill comes within a day of the other four males making their Rhino Kill.

http://www.wildwatch.com/sightings/another-kill
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..The prides dominant male, we believe him to be around 250kg, with the weight and power to accomplish such a feat.

http://www.wildwatch.com/...s/lions-kill-white-rhino

The above by Dr Sunquist is based on feces not witness.

Lions predate on much larger and heavier rhino's than tigers which max at 1 ton.
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Asadas
Sep 25 2014, 02:48 AM
tigerburningbright
Sep 24 2014, 10:36 AM
blaze
Sep 23 2014, 12:42 PM
Rhinos don't vary that much in size but there is a lot of myths about their size, probably because of hunter tall tales, the few surveys of black rhino have found little sexual dimorphism and weights of around 1 tonne on average for adults

Isn't in the previous pages an African zoology paper from 1999? they report 3 cases of 3 male lions killing subadult black rhino about 130cm tall at the shoulder, this attacks happened during a period of 4 months, seems like the most recent article didn't do their research.

According to the info in Denney (1969), captured rhinos classified as immature average some 700kg (I'm ignoring a 400kg female that I think is much younger than the others), giving how the average adult is around 1 tonne, it doesn't seem like an adult would be that much bigger.
White Rhinos can vary alot in size (Males are generally significantly bigger than Females)....But I believe both Male and Female Black Rhinos are about 1800-2600lbs in weight on average. Some do get bigger than that, but it's fairly rare.

Black Rhinos are very aggressive animals....They aren't that much bigger than Male Cape Buffaloes and travel solo (as opposed to in herds like Buffalo) yet they are almost never preyed upon by any predator....They also have poor eyesight at night (which you would think was a disadvantage) and are still rarely preyed upon (predators often hunt at night)....That's very telling.

Black Rhinos are generally completely dominant over Lions...and that says much more than the rare account of predation which for all we know involved sick/injured Rhinos (animals get sick all the time)....and not healthy Rhinos.

blaze
Sep 23 2014, 12:42 PM


I don't know from where you got that the subadult range is 3-5 years because Hillman-Smith and Groves (1994) says that minimum age at first conception (definitive sign of sexual maturity) observed in different populations ranges from 3.5 to 3.9 years old. They also cite Hitchins (1970) as a 3 year old being only slightly smaller than its mother.


There is no "set age range" for sub-adult Black Rhinos....It would vary among different Black Rhino populations in different geographical areas and different environments as it does for all animals...Lions from Kruger National Park do not reach sexual maturity at the same age as Lions from the Kalahari Desert etc etc etc....and the same would hold true for Black Rhinos..

Liquor Box
Sep 23 2014, 12:42 PM


Rhinos and lions co-exist. It seems to me that if lions frequently killed rhinos, this would be widely known - but there seems to be only a handful of (somewhat ambiguous) accounts. I don't think a very small number of reports of one animal killing another (especially when the two species encounter each other often) are that persuasive. On occasions a far weaker animal may kill a far more powerful one. An example of this is a beaver recently killing a fit male adult human.


Yep agreed 100 percent...Not to mention there are so many other outside variables (that aren't accounted for on a website like this) that can make or break a predation attempt....Notice how in one of the youtube clips I posted, the Rhino tripped while it was in the waterhole and almost fell over...The Rhino could have easily broken it's leg or not been able to get up and then it would have been easy prey for the Lions....That didn't happen as the Rhino was able to regain it's footing and get back to its feet, but if it did happen would that have been considered a fair account of predation by the Lions on the Rhino?? Would that have counted as a "win" for the Lions or just an outside variable that doomed the Rhino that had nothing to do with the strength and hunting abilities of the Lions.

Predators FREQUENTLY target sick/injured/weak prey items....For all we know those few rare accounts of Lions killing Black Rhinos may have been sick/injured/weak Rhinos....Predators don't "fight fair" and that's a good thing as it helps to maintain a healthy and strong ecosystem.

There are no Cape Buffalo in Etosha National Park....Yet Lions still almost never predate on Black Rhinos....You would think that if they could do it they would especially since their are no large Bovids in the park for them to predate on....Yet they just stick to Warthogs, Zebras, and Giraffes and other smaller prey items..
A 1000 kg white rhino is off the menue but lions predate on Rhinos far more frequently than smaller Asian rhinos bytigers

your scavenging theory though possible is based on an old book before any recent studies..

http://books.google.com/books?id=B_07noCPc4kC&pg=RA3-PA464&lpg=RA3-PA464&dq=Lion+predation+white+rhino&source=bl&ots=u261PJ08fG&sig=bFS2grEo3lsT23nNyOATYdzcN1o&hl=en&sa=X&ei=efYiVLjXFI6xyASo9oDAAw&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Lion%20predation%20white%20rhino&f=false

Lion predation on black rhinoceros (Diceros bicornis) in Etosha National Park
Posted Image

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2028.1999.00137.x/abstract

http://www.rhinoresourcecenter.com/pdf_files/117/1175858056.pdf

http://books.google.com/books?id=fqC_4VGCRkEC&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=lion+predation+black+rhinos&source=bl&ots=M1KbSLVdK7&sig=4X4c06rOkIrpPGm6bExRC8Dlo5Y&hl=en&sa=X&ei=K_UiVM6BOYu3yATp_IKQCQ&ved=0CEwQ6AEwBjgK#v=onepage&q=lion%20predation%20black%20rhinos&f=false

13. The white rhino is the largest rhino species and the largest land mammal after the elephant.
White rhinos can grow to weigh more than 5,000 pounds, which is almost as much as a Land Rover rolling along on the Serengeti. Next in size is the Indian or greater one-horned rhino, which may actually stand taller than a white rhino, but is just a bit less massive. Then come the Javan rhino and the black rhino. The Sumatran rhino is the smallest of its kind, with the largest individuals barely reaching a ton in weight.

17. Humans are the major threat to rhinos, but several other species are also rhino predators.
The two species most often reported to prey upon rhinos – usually young ones – are lions in Africa and tigers in Asia.

http://www.rhinos.org/25-things-you-didn-t-know-about-rhinos
Posted Image
.. page 83.. Adult rhino and adult gaur are rarely killed (Figure 33), but tigers occasionally killed herbivore.. Most of the prey killed by tigers weighed about 50-100 kg,..Melvil E Sunquist

http://animalcreativity.w...172024-SCtZ0336Lores.pdf
Posted Image
Black rhino, at around 1000kg in an adult, are half the size of their much larger white cousins. As a result they are prone to a very different predatory pressure and in particular regions such as Etosha in northern Namibia and in Hluhluwe-Umfolozi in South Africa they have been recorded at various ages as falling prey to lion and even spotted hyaena.

In most cases it is the calves that are preyed on, despite the best efforts of the very protective, mobile and aggressive mothers. The scars of unsuccessful attacks are worn long into adulthood in some animals and a missing ear or tip of the tail is a good indication of this having happened. Even young adults are known to have succumbed to lion on occasion.

http://www.africatravelresource.com/africa/namibia/nc/etosha/etoshas/ongava-main-lodge/guide/updates/

01-2014
..A ranger was seriously hurt by an injured black rhino in the Mkuze game reserve in Zululand on Thursday afternoon
..“We cannot speculate as we have not examined the animal yet, but the injury could be from a failed poaching attempt or an attack by another animal.”

http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/kwazulu-natal/ranger-injured-by-bleeding-rhino-1.1640050#.VCL49hYhThY

The coalition of six male lions has struck fear into the big grazers at Exeter over the past few days. As if the four lions killing a Rhino were not enough, a single male (from the coalition) has just killed an adult female Giraffe. Not only is it impressive because a lone lion killed an adult Giraffe, but the kill comes within a day of the other four males making their Rhino Kill.

http://www.wildwatch.com/sightings/another-kill
Posted Image
..The prides dominant male, we believe him to be around 250kg, with the weight and power to accomplish such a feat.

http://www.wildwatch.com/...s/lions-kill-white-rhino

The above by Dr Sunquist is based on feces not witness.

Lions predate on much larger and heavier rhino's than tigers which max at 1 ton.
Although your post is lengthy it can be summed up by one passage:
In most cases it is the calves that are preyed on, despite the best efforts of the very protective, mobile and aggressive mothers. The scars of unsuccessful attacks are worn long into adulthood in some animals and a missing ear or tip of the tail is a good indication of this having happened. Even young adults are known to have succumbed to lion on occasion.

It seems likely that the "young adults" referred to in your post, are the same "sub-adult" rhinos that we have been discussing. Accordingly your post is consistent with the posts that preceded it.

In essence your post did not have any accounts of a pride of lions killing a full-grown adult black rhino, despite there being frequent interraction between the two. This is in contrast to tigerburningbriht posting numerous videos of rhinos seeing off several lions.

If anything, I think your post adds further support to the case for the rhino. If lions were capable of killing adult rhinos more often than not (which is the question posed by this thread), there would frequent accounts of them doing so.
blaze
Sep 24 2014, 11:23 AM
@Liquor Box
Black rhino's are not humans, adult females and adult males are about the same size and if a 3 year old is only slightly smaller than its mother then it is pretty big, I never said we count them as adults just that they are not much smaller than an "official" adult nor are they far away from being adults themselves.

What exactly then makes an adult a harder catch than the almost as big subadult? strength comes from muscle mass and muscle mass influences weight and thus overall mass, if the subadults are almost as big then they can't be that much weaker physically, the most obvious difference it seems is the size of the horns, the 3 subadults had an anterior horns only about 20cm long, as far as I know adults have anterior horns at least twice if not 3 times as long.

I'm not saying they should be completely favored but just look at the other comments, very few are even given them a chance.

I may have to defer to your superior anatomical knowledge, but the opening post certainly says that females are smaller than males.

I don;t know what you mean by being "not much smaller", but if the sub-adult rhinos were 750kg, and adult male rhinos average about 1050, that is a significant difference in my opinion.

I think that adult rhinos would be stronger than immature rhinos even disregarding body weight. Certainly in humans adult men are strgoner than adolescents (12-14 years old) even if they are the same weight. I can't explain this from a physiological perspective - perhaps the adults have higher testosterone. But it is demonstrably true - there is an u56kg weightlifting weight class - I have never heard of an adolescent competing.

By more than this, fighting is not just about strength or horn length. It is about experience and other less tangible factors. Imagine a 70kg adult male leopard vs a 70kg immature male lion. I don't think many people would back the lion despite the weights being equal. I would guess that the leopard would be stronger, but even if it is not, I think it would best the immature lion.

The proof is in the pudding. These animals interact frequently. There are numerous posted filmed incidences of rhinos chasing off lion prides - there are probably hundred of such accounts that have not been posted. There are accounts of rhinos killing lions. In contrast we don't have a single persuasive account of lions (however many they numbered killing an adult black rhino. I'm not saying that it never happens - just that it is not the norm. The norm is for the rhino to dominate.

I'm still pretty comfortable that the rhino would win in the vast majority of encounters.
Edited by Submit name request, Sep 25 2014, 09:06 AM.
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tigerburningbright
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I will try to post a larger reply sometime later but for now I will post this....There have been several accounts of Black Rhinos killing Lions...I know I posted at-least 3 accounts on the Yuku forum, but now I can't seem to find them with the exception of this one account...I will keep looking for the other 2 and I will post a much more in depth response later when I am less busy from school work.


In this case it seemed the Lion was not paying attention/being alert (another example of an outside variable that can affect/influence a fight) and paid the price for it....Just as in one of those videos I posted where the Rhino almost tripped and fell over.


Black Rhino killing a large Male Lion

"At about 22h00 on 16/11/98, we happened upon the dominant male lion of the Kichwa Pride close to the airstrip; he had been mating during the day and was bloated after a big meal. Out of the darkness, a Black Rhino appeared and it was soon encircled by the pride. The well-fed male showed no interest, however, and remained lying down. The sub-adult lions had probably never encountered a rhino before and jumped up at it. This appeared to anger the rhino which snorted and rushed at the nearest lion -the large male. The male tried to get out of the rhino's path but was too slow and the rhino drove its horn into the lion's rump, knocking it backwards. The rhino then simply turned tail and wandered off into the night. The male was bleeding profusely from its wound and clearly, in great pain for it could not rise to walk away with the rest of the pride.
We returned to the scene at 6h30 the following morning, to find the lion still alive but breathing very heavily in a pool of blood. Vultures had gathered in the surrounding trees. In a supreme effort, the lion managed to haul itself about 20m to a shady lugga only to die there at about 10h00. Most surprisingly, no vultures or other scavengers came to eat the body of the lion after we left. Follow up visits revealed no maggots and the whole carcass eventually dried out."

http://www.rhinoresourcecenter.com/index.php?s=1&act=refs&CODE=note_detail&id=1165251858
Edited by tigerburningbright, Sep 25 2014, 10:36 AM.
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blaze
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@Liquor Box
The op is simply wrong, Hillman-Smith and Groves (1994) cites La Cevallerie (1970), of black rhinos from Hluhluwe, the average of 8 males was 855kg and of 6 females 887kg, of black rhinos from Kenya, average of 11 males was 1124kg and of 5 females 1081kg. Owen-Smith (1998) cite Meinertzhagen (1938) and Hitchins (1968) as giving a weight range of 708-1022kg for males and 718-1132kg for females from south Africa.

My suggestion of the subadults being ~700kg comes from what I estimated with the "immature" sample in Danney (1969) but I don't know how old they are, it doesn't necessarily contradict Hitchins (1970) statement, this specimens could be 2-3 year olds for all we know rather than 3-4 year olds which will be closer to the one tonne of adults.

I get what you mean, I agree than in pretty much every single encounter lions ran away but my point is that what those 3 males did suggests is more a lack of knowledge on how to kill them rather than it being impossible for them to do so, the subadults seems to be easy kill for those lions, adults will definitely be harder but impossible? I think people should at least give a chance to 3 big male "rhino-killer" lions rather than outright say that not even a huge pride would be able to do it, that's all I'm saying.

@tigerburningbright
You significantly edited your comment after I had already responded to you, I don't feel this is good practice. Anyway, I know sexual maturity varies between different populations but is not by a huge margin, the 3.5-3.9 years I mentioned include other figures from other populations that fell in between, thought it is true that maximum age of conception can go as high as 9 years (in the high density introduced population from Addo) but is this because they aren't sexually mature or they are just not scoring it? We don't know that.
Edited by blaze, Sep 25 2014, 12:46 PM.
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