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Who wins?
Asiatic Black Bear 24 (72.7%)
Giant Panda 9 (27.3%)
Total Votes: 33
Asiatic Black Bear v Giant Panda
Topic Started: Feb 23 2012, 08:10 PM (2,418 Views)
Taipan
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Asiatic Black Bear - Ursus thibetanus
The Asiatic Black Bear (Ursus thibetanus), also known as the Tibetan black bear, the Himalayan black bear, or the moon bear, is a medium sized, sharp-clawed, black-coloured bear with a distinctive white or cream "V" marking on its chest. It is a close relative of the American black bear with which it is thought to share a European common ancestor. It grows to approximately 130 to 190 cm (4¼ to 6¼ ft) in length. Males weigh between 110 and 150 kg (240 to 330 lb) and females weigh between 65 to 90 kg (140 to 200 lb). The bear's life span is around 25 years.

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Giant Panda - Ailuropoda melanoleuca
The giant panda, or panda (Ailuropoda melanoleuca, literally meaning "black and white cat-foot") is a bear native to central-western and south western China. It is easily recognized by its large, distinctive black patches around the eyes, over the ears, and across its round body. Though it belongs to the order Carnivora, the panda's diet is 99% bamboo. Pandas in the wild will occasionally eat other grasses, wild tubers, or even meat in the form of birds, rodents or carrion. In captivity they may receive honey, eggs, fish, yams, shrub leaves, oranges, or bananas along with specially prepared feed. The giant panda lives in a few mountain ranges in central China, mainly in Sichuan province, but also in the Shaanxi and Gansu provinces. The giant panda has a black-and-white coat. Adults measure around 1.2 to 1.8 meters (4 to 6 ft) long, including a tail of about 13 cm (5.1 in), and 60 to 90 centimeters (1 ft 10 in to 2 ft 10 in) tall at the shoulder. Males can weigh up to 160 kilograms (350 lb). Females (generally 10–20% smaller than males) can weigh as little as 75 kg (170 lb) but can also weigh up to 125 kilograms (280 lb). Average adult weight is 100 to 115 kilograms (220 to 250 lb).

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_____________________________________________________________________________

Mosquiller
Feb 23 2012, 07:44 AM
Giant Panda vs Asiatic Black Bear
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Mosquiller
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As a bamboo eater the giant panda should have a higher bite force correct ?
Edited by Mosquiller, Feb 23 2012, 11:13 PM.
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Ursus arctos
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First of all: note that the sample size was only one skull. This could mean things can vary dramatically; the small Asiatic black bear skull may have belonged to an immature animal, for example.

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If they have equal weights the panda's bite force would be nearly twice as high.
In addition, while the panda and Agriotherium africanum vied for the strongest skull of the above samples, both polar bears and the Asiatic black bear vied for weakest.
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Mosquiller
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This is a very close fight but I slightly favor the panda.
it has a higher bite force and is more robustly built.
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ShadowPredator
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Yeah, I agree, the panda should get some credit in some of these matches, it wasn't just a rolly-Polly ball of fat.
Anyway, I think the panda would win, due to more robust build, and more powerful jaws
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Scalesofanubis
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The panda has a high bite force, but it's a vegetarian without a lot of predators, and a slow metabolism vrs a somewhat larger actual predator.

Yeah...I'm going for the black bear.
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Mosquiller
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Scalesofanubis
Feb 24 2012, 01:39 PM
it's a vegetarian without a lot of predators, and a slow metabolism vrs a somewhat larger actual predator.

vegetarian? slow metabolism?
they don't have anything to do with the final result.
ABBs are slightly bigger on average but GPs are heavier, more robustly built and those powerful jaws can cause more damage.

"score of more than 100 indicated a bite greater than expected. Among living predators, the African lion scored nicely at 124, the tiger at 130, the giant panda at 151. The least weasel’s score? An impressive 164, second only to the Tasmanian devil, which scored 181 and is adapted to crushing and eating bones."
http://www.nwf.org/News-and-Magazines/National-Wildlife/Animals/Archives/2009/Least-Weasel-Carnivore-Bites.aspx
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Mack
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Ursus arctos
Feb 24 2012, 12:55 AM
First of all: note that the sample size was only one skull. This could mean things can vary dramatically; the small Asiatic black bear skull may have belonged to an immature animal, for example.

Posted Image

If they have equal weights the panda's bite force would be nearly twice as high.
In addition, while the panda and Agriotherium africanum vied for the strongest skull of the above samples, both polar bears and the Asiatic black bear vied for weakest.
Would the polar bears mandible break if it tried to deal with a large struggling prey such as walrus?
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Ursus arctos
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Mack
Feb 24 2012, 11:54 PM
Ursus arctos
Feb 24 2012, 12:55 AM
First of all: note that the sample size was only one skull. This could mean things can vary dramatically; the small Asiatic black bear skull may have belonged to an immature animal, for example.

Posted Image

If they have equal weights the panda's bite force would be nearly twice as high.
In addition, while the panda and Agriotherium africanum vied for the strongest skull of the above samples, both polar bears and the Asiatic black bear vied for weakest.
Would the polar bears mandible break if it tried to deal with a large struggling prey such as walrus?
No:
Ursus arctos
Feb 20 2012, 05:31 AM
From Interactions between Polar Bears and Overwintering Walruses in the Central Canadian High Arctic:
Between 1981 and 1989, we found evidence of 10
walruses that we believe were wounded or killed by polar
bears (Fig. 1). The date of death is known only for the kill
at site 2 where the bear was observed killing a large adult
male walrus and pulling it from its haulout hole (D. Grant,
pers. commun.). All the other carcasses were frozen and
partially eaten when found. Wind-blown snow often
obscured the bear tracks in the area, making it difficult to
reconstruct the attack, but the presence of bear claw
marks, blood smears, and scratching marks made by
walrus flippers indicated an interaction had occurred. In
2 cases, the haulout hole near the carcass was still unfro?
zen, suggesting the walruses were killed on the ice before
they could escape, and that freezing-out was not a factor.
There was blood soaked into the snow beneath the head
of the adult male found dead in February 1987 at the
shoreline tidal cracks below our camp (site 11), suggest?
ing that a bear killed him, though possibly only after the
ice shifted and he was frozen out. At 6 of 7 sites of kills
or probable kills, polar bears were feeding on the carcass
when it was sighted, but we did not know if they were
predators or scavengers.
Although walruses hit each other on the neck
shoulder with their tusks when fighting, they are
tected by a thick skin. Most wounds are superficial
bleeding is limited. At site 3, there was no carcass,
from the tracks we determined a bear had stalked
walrus from a distance, using a ridge of rough ice to
itself until it was close enough to charge the
walrus as it lay by its haulout hole at the edge of a frozen-
in multiyear floe. There was blood sprayed on the snow
at 3 separate breathing holes around the edge ofthe floe
in a pattern that probably resulted from the blood being
mixed with expired air from the nostrils. We suspect the
bear had time to hit the walrus on the head with a paw, or
bite it on the face or nose, before the walrus escaped into
the water. The bear's tracks went to all 3 holes, suggesting
that it tried unsuccessfully to capture the walrus for
some time after the initial attempt, possibly because the
wounded animal kept resurfacing at different holes to
breathe. We also found unusual amounts of blood that
appeared to be from wounding attacks at breathing holes
at sites 5 and 9, but it was difficult to interpret what had
happened because most of the tracks were covered
by drifted snow.

In spring 1976, T. Eley (Alas. Dep. Fish and Game,
Fairbanks, unpubl. data) tracked polar bears as part of a
study on polar bear predation. He recorded 1 kill of
young yearling walrus by a polar bear at Cape Lisburne,
Alaska. On 13 June 1987, about 60 km northeast of Point
Barrow, Alaska, K. Frost (pers. commun.) observed a
adult large male polar bear dragging a medium-sized
male walrus, with approximately 25-cm tusks, out ofthe
water at the edge of a floe. The walrus was bleeding
It had profusely, indicating it had just been killed.
apparently been alone at the edge of a floe in an area of
broken ice, and was farther east than walruses normally
occur in that region.


But they may suffer a higher risk of skull injury, and their skull bones may fatigue more rapidly leading to injury if they tackle such large prey often enough without allowing their skulls to recover.
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yigit05
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brown bear win stronger bite,weight,size avantage
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FelisRex
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its a black bear
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Mauro20
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I think the black bear wins. Pandas have a strong bite, but definitely aren't great fighters.
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Verdugo
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yigit05
Sep 17 2012, 10:15 PM
brown bear win stronger bite,weight,size avantage
You forgot dog teeth lol
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Verdugo
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Ursus arctos
Feb 25 2012, 12:59 AM
Mack
Feb 24 2012, 11:54 PM
Ursus arctos
Feb 24 2012, 12:55 AM
First of all: note that the sample size was only one skull. This could mean things can vary dramatically; the small Asiatic black bear skull may have belonged to an immature animal, for example.

Posted Image

If they have equal weights the panda's bite force would be nearly twice as high.
In addition, while the panda and Agriotherium africanum vied for the strongest skull of the above samples, both polar bears and the Asiatic black bear vied for weakest.
Would the polar bears mandible break if it tried to deal with a large struggling prey such as walrus?
No:
Ursus arctos
Feb 20 2012, 05:31 AM
From Interactions between Polar Bears and Overwintering Walruses in the Central Canadian High Arctic:
Between 1981 and 1989, we found evidence of 10
walruses that we believe were wounded or killed by polar
bears (Fig. 1). The date of death is known only for the kill
at site 2 where the bear was observed killing a large adult
male walrus and pulling it from its haulout hole (D. Grant,
pers. commun.). All the other carcasses were frozen and
partially eaten when found. Wind-blown snow often
obscured the bear tracks in the area, making it difficult to
reconstruct the attack, but the presence of bear claw
marks, blood smears, and scratching marks made by
walrus flippers indicated an interaction had occurred. In
2 cases, the haulout hole near the carcass was still unfro?
zen, suggesting the walruses were killed on the ice before
they could escape, and that freezing-out was not a factor.
There was blood soaked into the snow beneath the head
of the adult male found dead in February 1987 at the
shoreline tidal cracks below our camp (site 11), suggest?
ing that a bear killed him, though possibly only after the
ice shifted and he was frozen out. At 6 of 7 sites of kills
or probable kills, polar bears were feeding on the carcass
when it was sighted, but we did not know if they were
predators or scavengers.
Although walruses hit each other on the neck
shoulder with their tusks when fighting, they are
tected by a thick skin. Most wounds are superficial
bleeding is limited. At site 3, there was no carcass,
from the tracks we determined a bear had stalked
walrus from a distance, using a ridge of rough ice to
itself until it was close enough to charge the
walrus as it lay by its haulout hole at the edge of a frozen-
in multiyear floe. There was blood sprayed on the snow
at 3 separate breathing holes around the edge ofthe floe
in a pattern that probably resulted from the blood being
mixed with expired air from the nostrils. We suspect the
bear had time to hit the walrus on the head with a paw, or
bite it on the face or nose, before the walrus escaped into
the water. The bear's tracks went to all 3 holes, suggesting
that it tried unsuccessfully to capture the walrus for
some time after the initial attempt, possibly because the
wounded animal kept resurfacing at different holes to
breathe. We also found unusual amounts of blood that
appeared to be from wounding attacks at breathing holes
at sites 5 and 9, but it was difficult to interpret what had
happened because most of the tracks were covered
by drifted snow.

In spring 1976, T. Eley (Alas. Dep. Fish and Game,
Fairbanks, unpubl. data) tracked polar bears as part of a
study on polar bear predation. He recorded 1 kill of
young yearling walrus by a polar bear at Cape Lisburne,
Alaska. On 13 June 1987, about 60 km northeast of Point
Barrow, Alaska, K. Frost (pers. commun.) observed a
adult large male polar bear dragging a medium-sized
male walrus, with approximately 25-cm tusks, out ofthe
water at the edge of a floe. The walrus was bleeding
It had profusely, indicating it had just been killed.
apparently been alone at the edge of a floe in an area of
broken ice, and was farther east than walruses normally
occur in that region.


But they may suffer a higher risk of skull injury, and their skull bones may fatigue more rapidly leading to injury if they tackle such large prey often enough without allowing their skulls to recover.
Hey @Ursus arctos, i found another bite force estimate for brown bear and polar bear

Posted Image

And another source stated polar bear has a stronger bite

Posted Image

I just wonder which study is the most reliable  :-/  :-/
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Ursus arctos
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Wroe's article (the one I posted). 3d estimates are more reliable than the older 2d estimates (which I assume is what the second quote came from?) due to better modeling the skulls and muscle attachments.

The article you're quoting on just polar and brown bears was also comparing leverage of bites, rather than intending to actually compare how hard the animals could bite. Quoting:
We controlled for differences in size between the models using a
recently developed method for comparing FE models [16]. In order
to ensure that stress values are comparable among models of
different sizes, it is important that force to surface area ratios are
constant among finite element models. Therefore, prior to analysis,
both models were scaled to common surface area corresponding to
that of the polar bear model (1,209,042 mm2).
To produce realistic
estimates of bite force we used the total muscle force derived from a
dry skull estimate of the cross sectional area of temporalis and
masseter plus pterygoideus muscles in the polar bear (18069.6 N -
[51]).
For bilateral canine bites, this total muscle force was
distributed according to proportions described above from the
black bear. For unilateral post-canine bites, we reduced the
balancing side muscle forces by 2/3, resulting in a working side
total of 9034.8 N and a balancing side total of 6023.2 N.

We evaluated performance of the models based on three
criteria. First, we determined how skull shape affects bite
performance by comparing bite forces at the constrained nodes
on the teeth. Because all models were scaled to a common surface
area and used equal muscle forces, our null hypothesis was that
bite forces should be identical among the models. Any differences
in bite forces could then be interpreted as the result of differences
in skull geometry alone [16].
Second, we assessed strength of the
skull models by comparing model stress, measured as Von Mises
stress [9]. Bone is an elastic material and therefore fails under a
ductile, rather than brittle model of fracture [52]. Von Mises stress
is a scalar function of the principle stresses at each element and
provides a good predictor of failure due to ductile fracture [9].
Lower peak stress values and more even stress distributions were
interpreted as indicating a stronger structure for a given loading
condition. Finally, we assessed the work efficiency of the skull
models by comparing total strain energy values, a measure of
energy lost to deformation. In terms of work efficiency, efficient
structures are those that maximize stiffness for a given volume of
material [16]. Lower strain energy values indicate stiffer structures
and therefore greater work efficiency. Strain energy values were
corrected for differences in volumes of the models using Equation
5 from Dumont et al. [16]. Our null hypotheses for all analyses
were that stress and strain energy values should be identical among
scaled models. All FE analyses were linear static and were
completed in Strand7.

From Biomechanical Consequences of Rapid Evolution in the Polar Bear Lineage.

Basically, the variable the article was trying to compare was differences in skull geometry-not how hard both animals could actually bite.


These articles all have extremely low sample sizes (the polar bear in Wroe's article was the only animal represented by two skulls).
Some bear species in particular have huge individual variation in skull size and shape, meaning two specimens of the same species could get very different results. In fact, so different that some early researchers thought there were an awful lot of different bear species walking around North America....
warsaw
 
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And that of course isn't the very relevant (to bite force) width/length ratio which also changes dramatically with age.
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