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Cheetah v Irish Wolfhound
Topic Started: Feb 28 2012, 06:55 PM (10,212 Views)
Taipan
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Cheetah - Acinonyx jubatus
The cheetah (Acinonyx jubatus) is a large-sized feline (family Felidae) inhabiting most of Africa and parts of the Middle East. The cheetah is the only extant member of the genus Acinonyx, most notable for modifications in the species' paws. As such, it is the only felid with non-retractable claws and pads that, by their scope, disallow gripping (therefore cheetahs cannot climb vertical trees, although they are generally capable of reaching easily accessible branches). The cheetah, however, achieves by far the fastest land speed of any living animal—between 112 and 120 km/h (70 and 75 mph) in short bursts covering distances up to 500 m (1,600 ft), and has the ability to accelerate from 0 to over 100 km/h (62 mph) in three seconds. The cheetah's chest is deep and its waist is narrow. The coarse, short fur of the cheetah is tan with round black spots measuring from 2 to 3 cm (0.79 to 1.2 in) across, affording it some camouflage while hunting. There are no spots on its white underside, but the tail has spots, which merge to form four to six dark rings at the end. The tail usually ends in a bushy white tuft. The cheetah has a small head with high-set eyes. Black "tear marks" running from the corner of its eyes down the sides of the nose to its mouth keep sunlight out of its eyes and aid in hunting and seeing long distances. Although it can reach high speeds, its body cannot stand long distance running, because it is more suited to short bursts of speed. The adult cheetah weighs from 35 to 72 kg (77 to 160 lb). Its total head-and-body length is from 110 to 150 cm (43 to 59 in), while the tail can measure 60 to 84 cm (24 to 33 in) in length. Cheetahs are 66 to 94 cm (26 to 37 in) tall at the shoulder. Males tend to be slightly larger than females and have slightly bigger heads, but there is not a great variation in cheetah sizes and it is difficult to tell males and females apart by appearance alone. Compared to a similarly sized leopard, the cheetah is generally shorter-bodied, but is longer tailed and taller (it averages about 90 cm (35 in) tall) and so it appears more streamlined.

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Irish Wolfhound
The Irish Wolfhound is a breed of domestic dog (Canis lupus familiaris), specifically a sighthound. The name originates from its purpose (wolf hunting with dogs) rather than from its appearance. Irish Wolfhounds are the tallest of dog breeds. The standard of The American Kennel Club describes the breed as "Of great size and commanding appearance, the Irish Wolfhound is remarkable in combining power and swiftness with keen sight. The largest and tallest of the galloping hounds, in general type he is a rough-coated, Greyhound-like breed; very muscular, strong though gracefully built; movements easy and active; head and neck carried high, the tail carried with an upward sweep with a slight curve towards the extremity". The colours allowed by the American Kennel Club are "grey, brindle, red, black, pure white, fawn, wheaten and steel grey". The American Kennel Club allows "any other color that appears in the Deerhound". The size as specified by the AKC is "Minimum height for mature males: 32 inches, females: 30 inches. Minimum weight: 120lbs for males, 105 lbs for females. Great size, including height of shoulder and proportionate length of body is to be aimed at, and it is desired to firmly establish a breed that shall average (minimum) from 32-34in) in dogs".

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Sicilianu
Feb 28 2012, 09:02 AM
Cheetah vs Irish Wolfound
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Vivec
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Full Throttle
Aug 12 2013, 09:25 AM
Vivec
Aug 12 2013, 09:02 AM
The last wolf is said to have been killed in 1786. 500 years is a gross exaggeration. Hunter tales are a rare sighting, let alone in the case of many sources stating the killing of wolves in Wexford, Meath, and Clare. An Irish Wolfhound was capable of taking an armored knight off his horse, to deny it's chances in a one-on-one combat situation against a wolf I deem unnecessary. Particularly how these animals were noted to take down the wolf on their own, noted for their strength, without the subsequent help and appraisal of the kill by other hounds, which I doubt were used considering the rarity of the breed in Ireland at the time anyway. I am aware they have lost many of their functional wolf ability, but the irish wolfhounds used in dogfighting (sadly) and field work, if anything should put up a much greater fight. A cheetah is no exception, in the case likely that the wolfhound is much more robust than it was years ago, while still regaining stamatic characteristics.

I had never mentioned the inability of their hunting ability either, but I really see nothing that remotely provides a male cheetah killing anything larger than a wildebeest calf to agree with that.

As with this I had not mentioned them incapable of killing carnivores larger than sympatric jackals, but they seem reluctant to go into combat with any carnivore large enough to ward them off a kill, including hyenas and other cats.

I don't know of the cheetah you talked about, and can't judge by appearances alone, unless both animals are of the same species or genus. In this case you're comparing a feliform to a caniform from memory, something I don't tend to base musularity or strength off.

Killing experteise is irrelevant when you get killed by LGD dogs with no experience other than defending livestock.

Just to correct you on one point. You mention "the irish wolfhounds used in dogfighting (sadly) and field work, if anything should put up a much greater fight".

There was a breeding programme going on in India which involved imported Irish wolfhounds. The goal was to create a first class boar dog. One of these male wolfhounds was put against a Bully Kutta and he was trounced. In fact, it was this display that made the breeder add bully kutta and gull terr blood into the mix, because felt the wolfhound was too soft.

Please look at page 9 of the impressive dogs thread for a more comprehensive look at this Indian breeding programme.

My point is Wolfhounds make poor fighters, most any decent sized fighting breed would hand the wolfhounds arse back to it, the only thing Wolfhounds have going for them is there size, and a similar sized LGD or mastiff would whip them.

I do however, give a working example, rare as they are, thee edge over a cheetah. An by working example I mean one used for boar hunting.
Was the wolfhound a working breed itself? I have seen these dogs pit a good fight against that of Kurdish Kangals, which were illegally transported to eastern europe, used in a dogfight. The combatants goal I do not know off, likely just a betting match, do my dismay.

My earlier post saw the quote not dissmissing the fact that they had a decent record against that of Mastiffs, often losing, but rather still doing well, in the felids case however, it doesn't have the morphology needed to tackle the Wolfhound.
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Vivec
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Gato Gordo
Aug 12 2013, 09:28 AM
Vivec,

OK, perhaps 400 years not 500 years, it doesn't matter. By the time the last wolf was killed in 1786 wolves were practically extinct since much earlier times. Wolves became extinct in the British isles earlier than in continental Europe. Hunting tales from those olde times are NOT good evidence and often morph into legends. It is extremely difficult to verify them and are often contradictory. If a single wolfhound was able to "take an armored knight off his horse", then why was this breed not used in wars? Anyway, if you want to believe old accounts of legendary wolfhound feats, then be my guest. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Cheetahs have taken fully developed wildebeests and similar antelopes, not calves. And IMO killing expertise is very important. LGD's get killed more often by predators (wolves, cougars) than the other way round.
It's closer to 200 years actually. Not considerably long ago, not taking into account the feats performed by these dogs were well documented by that point in time. There are no Boar left in Ireland, same with the grey wolf, probably why there's no modern accounts of this event occuring. Regardless you're dismissing every single instance of this as false due to the apparent legends they've been morphed into, despite being written often by authors as wolf killers.

These dogs were used in wars, often battles, it's name alone (Cu Faoil) translates into "hunting dog" and "war dog". Irish wolfhounds have been recorded as being exhibited in Rome and during the English conquest of Ireland, wolfhounds were trained by the Irish for war. No doubt they were capable of dragging men off chariots or horseback, they had the strength suitable for the task. This was not inclusive in the Gallic wars.

Any accounts though? I myself have looked and found none. An untrained and unkept LGD is an easy target for cougars and wolves, even Leopards and Bears outside of the Americas. A Cheetah is incompatable.
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Catboy
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Aug 12 2013, 08:44 AM
irish wolfhound wins. it is larger and more powerfully built than the cheetah.
Not to mention they have hunted wolves before. A determined Irish Wolfhound takes this comfortably.
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FelinePowah
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Black leopard
Aug 12 2013, 05:26 PM
spinosaurus rex
Aug 12 2013, 08:44 AM
irish wolfhound wins. it is larger and more powerfully built than the cheetah.
Not to mention they have hunted wolves before. A determined Irish Wolfhound takes this comfortably.
They hunted wolves like 500 years ago and whether they killed them on their own,in a pack or with the aid of humans we shall never know....but what we do know is that the wolf hound of today is a different animal then the wolf hound of the past and the only things todays wolf hounds kill are sticks in the park.
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Full Throttle
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Vivec
Aug 12 2013, 10:26 AM
Full Throttle
Aug 12 2013, 09:25 AM
Vivec
Aug 12 2013, 09:02 AM
The last wolf is said to have been killed in 1786. 500 years is a gross exaggeration. Hunter tales are a rare sighting, let alone in the case of many sources stating the killing of wolves in Wexford, Meath, and Clare. An Irish Wolfhound was capable of taking an armored knight off his horse, to deny it's chances in a one-on-one combat situation against a wolf I deem unnecessary. Particularly how these animals were noted to take down the wolf on their own, noted for their strength, without the subsequent help and appraisal of the kill by other hounds, which I doubt were used considering the rarity of the breed in Ireland at the time anyway. I am aware they have lost many of their functional wolf ability, but the irish wolfhounds used in dogfighting (sadly) and field work, if anything should put up a much greater fight. A cheetah is no exception, in the case likely that the wolfhound is much more robust than it was years ago, while still regaining stamatic characteristics.

I had never mentioned the inability of their hunting ability either, but I really see nothing that remotely provides a male cheetah killing anything larger than a wildebeest calf to agree with that.

As with this I had not mentioned them incapable of killing carnivores larger than sympatric jackals, but they seem reluctant to go into combat with any carnivore large enough to ward them off a kill, including hyenas and other cats.

I don't know of the cheetah you talked about, and can't judge by appearances alone, unless both animals are of the same species or genus. In this case you're comparing a feliform to a caniform from memory, something I don't tend to base musularity or strength off.

Killing experteise is irrelevant when you get killed by LGD dogs with no experience other than defending livestock.

Just to correct you on one point. You mention "the irish wolfhounds used in dogfighting (sadly) and field work, if anything should put up a much greater fight".

There was a breeding programme going on in India which involved imported Irish wolfhounds. The goal was to create a first class boar dog. One of these male wolfhounds was put against a Bully Kutta and he was trounced. In fact, it was this display that made the breeder add bully kutta and gull terr blood into the mix, because felt the wolfhound was too soft.

Please look at page 9 of the impressive dogs thread for a more comprehensive look at this Indian breeding programme.

My point is Wolfhounds make poor fighters, most any decent sized fighting breed would hand the wolfhounds arse back to it, the only thing Wolfhounds have going for them is there size, and a similar sized LGD or mastiff would whip them.

I do however, give a working example, rare as they are, thee edge over a cheetah. An by working example I mean one used for boar hunting.
Was the wolfhound a working breed itself? I have seen these dogs pit a good fight against that of Kurdish Kangals, which were illegally transported to eastern europe, used in a dogfight. The combatants goal I do not know off, likely just a betting match, do my dismay.

My earlier post saw the quote not dissmissing the fact that they had a decent record against that of Mastiffs, often losing, but rather still doing well, in the felids case however, it doesn't have the morphology needed to tackle the Wolfhound.
I'm sorry, I don't understand that post.

"Was the wolfhound a working breed itself?" Yes it was, it was a big game hunter for the Celts hundreds of years ago, today's breed is a recreation using original wolfhound, great dane, deerhound, Borzoi and English Mastiff.

"I have seen these dogs pit a good fight against that of Kurdish Kangals, which were illegally transported to eastern europe, used in a dogfight. The combatants goal I do not know off, likely just a betting match, do my dismay".

So you've seen modern Irish Wolfhounds put against Kangals? Is that what your trying to say? I don't know how you can stomach dog fighting videos, but a Kangal would pretty much whip a Wolfhound, if you saw otherwise in the video it was most probably a fluke. It has been said by people in the know that many modern giant breeds cannot stack up to proper LGD'S, I don't see why a Wolfhound would be any different.

Can you please explain to me what you meant by this post? I'm having difficulty responding.
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da pink
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Vivec
Aug 12 2013, 10:38 AM
It's closer to 200 years actually. Not considerably long ago, not taking into account the feats performed by these dogs were well documented by that point in time. There are no Boar left in Ireland, same with the grey wolf, probably why there's no modern accounts of this event occuring. Regardless you're dismissing every single instance of this as false due to the apparent legends they've been morphed into, despite being written often by authors as wolf killers.

These dogs were used in wars, often battles, it's name alone (Cu Faoil) translates into "hunting dog" and "war dog". Irish wolfhounds have been recorded as being exhibited in Rome and during the English conquest of Ireland, wolfhounds were trained by the Irish for war. No doubt they were capable of dragging men off chariots or horseback, they had the strength suitable for the task. This was not inclusive in the Gallic wars.

Any accounts though? I myself have looked and found none. An untrained and unkept LGD is an easy target for cougars and wolves, even Leopards and Bears outside of the Americas. A Cheetah is incompatable.
The Cu Faoil was not the dog we call a wolfhound now

This is a recreation using deerhounds and, I think, gt danes.

Can you point me to the source for Irish wolfhounds being exhibited in Rome, amd trained for war? Be very interested in that
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Vivec
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Full Throttle
Aug 13 2013, 12:54 AM
Vivec
Aug 12 2013, 10:26 AM
Full Throttle
Aug 12 2013, 09:25 AM
Vivec
Aug 12 2013, 09:02 AM
The last wolf is said to have been killed in 1786. 500 years is a gross exaggeration. Hunter tales are a rare sighting, let alone in the case of many sources stating the killing of wolves in Wexford, Meath, and Clare. An Irish Wolfhound was capable of taking an armored knight off his horse, to deny it's chances in a one-on-one combat situation against a wolf I deem unnecessary. Particularly how these animals were noted to take down the wolf on their own, noted for their strength, without the subsequent help and appraisal of the kill by other hounds, which I doubt were used considering the rarity of the breed in Ireland at the time anyway. I am aware they have lost many of their functional wolf ability, but the irish wolfhounds used in dogfighting (sadly) and field work, if anything should put up a much greater fight. A cheetah is no exception, in the case likely that the wolfhound is much more robust than it was years ago, while still regaining stamatic characteristics.

I had never mentioned the inability of their hunting ability either, but I really see nothing that remotely provides a male cheetah killing anything larger than a wildebeest calf to agree with that.

As with this I had not mentioned them incapable of killing carnivores larger than sympatric jackals, but they seem reluctant to go into combat with any carnivore large enough to ward them off a kill, including hyenas and other cats.

I don't know of the cheetah you talked about, and can't judge by appearances alone, unless both animals are of the same species or genus. In this case you're comparing a feliform to a caniform from memory, something I don't tend to base musularity or strength off.

Killing experteise is irrelevant when you get killed by LGD dogs with no experience other than defending livestock.

Just to correct you on one point. You mention "the irish wolfhounds used in dogfighting (sadly) and field work, if anything should put up a much greater fight".

There was a breeding programme going on in India which involved imported Irish wolfhounds. The goal was to create a first class boar dog. One of these male wolfhounds was put against a Bully Kutta and he was trounced. In fact, it was this display that made the breeder add bully kutta and gull terr blood into the mix, because felt the wolfhound was too soft.

Please look at page 9 of the impressive dogs thread for a more comprehensive look at this Indian breeding programme.

My point is Wolfhounds make poor fighters, most any decent sized fighting breed would hand the wolfhounds arse back to it, the only thing Wolfhounds have going for them is there size, and a similar sized LGD or mastiff would whip them.

I do however, give a working example, rare as they are, thee edge over a cheetah. An by working example I mean one used for boar hunting.
Was the wolfhound a working breed itself? I have seen these dogs pit a good fight against that of Kurdish Kangals, which were illegally transported to eastern europe, used in a dogfight. The combatants goal I do not know off, likely just a betting match, do my dismay.

My earlier post saw the quote not dissmissing the fact that they had a decent record against that of Mastiffs, often losing, but rather still doing well, in the felids case however, it doesn't have the morphology needed to tackle the Wolfhound.
I'm sorry, I don't understand that post.

"Was the wolfhound a working breed itself?" Yes it was, it was a big game hunter for the Celts hundreds of years ago, today's breed is a recreation using original wolfhound, great dane, deerhound, Borzoi and English Mastiff.

"I have seen these dogs pit a good fight against that of Kurdish Kangals, which were illegally transported to eastern europe, used in a dogfight. The combatants goal I do not know off, likely just a betting match, do my dismay".

So you've seen modern Irish Wolfhounds put against Kangals? Is that what your trying to say? I don't know how you can stomach dog fighting videos, but a Kangal would pretty much whip a Wolfhound, if you saw otherwise in the video it was most probably a fluke. It has been said by people in the know that many modern giant breeds cannot stack up to proper LGD'S, I don't see why a Wolfhound would be any different.

Can you please explain to me what you meant by this post? I'm having difficulty responding.
Quote:
 
"Was the wolfhound a working breed itself?" Yes it was, it was a big game hunter for the Celts hundreds of years ago, today's breed is a recreation using original wolfhound, great dane, deerhound, Borzoi and English Mastiff.


I'm sorry what? That particular wolf hound was a specimen used thousands of years ago? I am aware of the ancestary of the modern wolfhound used today, but I still don't know exactly what you're implying.

Quote:
 
"I have seen these dogs pit a good fight against that of Kurdish Kangals, which were illegally transported to eastern europe, used in a dogfight. The combatants goal I do not know off, likely just a betting match, do my dismay".

So you've seen modern Irish Wolfhounds put against Kangals? Is that what your trying to say? I don't know how you can stomach dog fighting videos, but a Kangal would pretty much whip a Wolfhound, if you saw otherwise in the video it was most probably a fluke. It has been said by people in the know that many modern giant breeds cannot stack up to proper LGD'S, I don't see why a Wolfhound would be any different.


Exactly, I have stomached worse dog-fights anyway (I have an account on another forum, not going into details though). In essence, most of the video did feature the Kangal getting a swift hold on the hounds neck. About 3 minutes in, however the Cu faoil managed to escape the lock on it's head and use what I presume to be its left forelimb to leverage itself above the Kangal, allowing it to gain a rough hold on its neck. The video ended before the winner was shown, but really I use it as evidence of their strength anyway.

I wouldn't compare them to game-bred mastiffs and similarly sized bull-like breeds, but they certainly come close in overall strength, and they aren't lacking in stamina either, something required for fighting and subduing wolves.

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Vivec
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da pink
Aug 13 2013, 01:08 AM
Vivec
Aug 12 2013, 10:38 AM
It's closer to 200 years actually. Not considerably long ago, not taking into account the feats performed by these dogs were well documented by that point in time. There are no Boar left in Ireland, same with the grey wolf, probably why there's no modern accounts of this event occuring. Regardless you're dismissing every single instance of this as false due to the apparent legends they've been morphed into, despite being written often by authors as wolf killers.

These dogs were used in wars, often battles, it's name alone (Cu Faoil) translates into "hunting dog" and "war dog". Irish wolfhounds have been recorded as being exhibited in Rome and during the English conquest of Ireland, wolfhounds were trained by the Irish for war. No doubt they were capable of dragging men off chariots or horseback, they had the strength suitable for the task. This was not inclusive in the Gallic wars.

Any accounts though? I myself have looked and found none. An untrained and unkept LGD is an easy target for cougars and wolves, even Leopards and Bears outside of the Americas. A Cheetah is incompatable.
The Cu Faoil was not the dog we call a wolfhound now

This is a recreation using deerhounds and, I think, gt danes.

Can you point me to the source for Irish wolfhounds being exhibited in Rome, amd trained for war? Be very interested in that
Here are some:

http://www.irishwolfhoundsociety.co.uk/breedhistory.htm

http://www.kaldaunkennels.com/html/wolfhounds.html

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ms3iUBuC3mcC&pg=PT21&lpg=PT21&dq=irish+wolfhound+knights&source=bl&ots=j0UHWQeO8R&sig=4irZVH4y64CcwFrRglR-wbwZfLk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fQYJUsaQNOX50gXTk4GABA&ved=0CCwQ6AEwADge#v=onepage&q=irish%20wolfhound%20knights&f=false


Through various historical conflicts between Ireland and England, the Irish infantrymen often found themselves in the position of facing mounted and armored knights. The Irish Wolfhound was large and trainable enough to dismount, injure, and kill many English knights. It is due to this use that the English monarchy and nobility banned ownership of Irish Wolfhounds amongst Irish common folk (amongst many other bans, starting officially with the Statutes of Kilkenny in the 14th century).
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Gato Gordo
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Vivec

I'm sorry, but your sources are not reliable and must be taken with a BIG BIG BIG grain of salt. First, I'm very skeptical of embellished info posted by web sites dedicated to a given breed, specially when they mention "incredible" feats that happened centuries ago (and SPECIALLY if the dog breed is a national symbol). I guess that most posters would agree with me on this.

I'm not saying that everything these sources say is a lie (they read like a grain of truth in vast oceans of myth). You don't need to be a rocket scientist to see that a lot of stuff is hugely exaggerated. Let's see a representative paragraph taken from one of the web sources you cited:

Quote:
 
"They killed wolves in the same way a cat kills a rat, by shaking it until its neck snapped. Irish wolfhounds have been recorded as being exhibited in Rome and during the English conquest of Ireland, wolfhounds were trained by the Irish for war. Their job was to catch armoured knights on horseback and separate them from their horses."


A large dog "killing a wolf like a cat kills a rat"? Come on !! This is OBVIOUSLY a wild-eyed exaggeration that goes against all evidence we have on interactions between wolves and large dogs (specially working LGD's). It also goes against basic animal morphology: a cat weighs 5x the rat's weight (10 lbs to 2 lbs), a large wolfhound (60 kg) is just slightly heavier than a typical north European wolf (45-50 kg). Any source making such a comparison is OBVIOUSLY NOT making a factual statement, but is simply HYPING the feats of "national" dog breed. Your sources are just doing this.

A 400 lbs tiger or lion may EASILY kill a 100 lbs wolf by "shaking" its neck until it snapped. A 130lbs wolfhound would do this only in Irish mythology. In fact, as shown by expert biologist Ray Coppinger, a typical large dog needs to reach 180 lbs to have a skull of the same size of a 100 lbs wolf. Wolves have much larger skulls than dogs of their size. This is a fact. A typical Irish wolf of 100 lbs likely had a larger skull (and thus a more powerful bite) than a 130 lbs wolfhound. This means that neck snapping was likely done (NOT EASILY DONE) by the wolves to the wolfhounds rather than the other way round.

If the statement on how easy wolfhounds dispatched wolves is so exaggerated and so evidently untrue, how can we believe the other statements on wolfhounds regularly throwing knights from their horses? Really, I do believe it but as some occasional infrequent events that became part of the mixture of truth and legend that this web site reports, but NOT (definitely NOT) not as reporting actual facts that happened regularly.

I'm not saying that wolfhounds are not impressive (they are), but we simply can't take as facts these web site sources that embellish the feats of the breed as a sort of symbol of Irish identity and history. The same goes for other "national" dog breeds like the Serbian sarplaninac or the Turkish kangal or the Argentinian dogo. The web sites of fans of these breeds are all aiming to promote the national dog and thus are worth a lot of skepticism.

Finally, if we take very old sources at face value and without questioning (as you do with your sources), then we would have to accept events that were recorded in these sources as facts. So we would have to accept that (i) honey badgers castrate buffaloes (ii) cougars regularly defeat grizzly bears (iii) wolverines kill wolves cougars and bears, etc, etc, etc. However, we know that all these feats were not true on the basis of modern scientific sources based on field research carried on by professional zoologists. On the same grounds (the research of Roy Coppinger on dogs and wolves) we know that a wolfhound is not going to kill a wolf as a cat kills a rat and that the wolfhound is not on the same league for force tasks as most working mastiffs.
Edited by Gato Gordo, Aug 13 2013, 08:31 AM.
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Vivec
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There aren't any sources stating that these were false however. The Irish Wolfhound was known for these stunts anyway, through the eyes of hunters of course. While I understand that the irish would show some favour of their dog, other websites (such as this http://www.kentuckyirishwolfhounds.com/the-irish-wolfhound.html) seem to agree on the same terms, as grabbing and shaking a Wolf by the neck is not an impossible or unlikely event.

By the time a Wolfhound holds onto the neck of the wolf for long enough, it's body likely will go limp within a short period of time, allowing it to shake and kill the wild dog after that occurence. I know of terriers that can fling a coyote in its mouth like a ragdoll, despite being of similar, if not evedently smaller size. Taking the weight of only the neck and head in your mouth isn't a hard task to accomplish.

The killing and dispatching of English knights can't be left in disarray at that either, these dogs were of sufficient size to bring down horses and knights from chariots, something several roman writers appear to have noted, if anything before their near extinction, good wolfhounds were large and strong enough to seize a wolf across the loins and trot off with it.

That said this was performed on fleeing wolves, but I can sufficiently compare them to Cheetahs, considering these felids already suffer wounds or death by the hands of smaller livestock gaurdians.
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Gato Gordo
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Vivec,

You won't find sources dedicated to the breed that question this info. However, simple morphological arguments (skull sizes) shows you that a wolfhound is not going to easily kill a wolf. You mention that you know of "terriers that can fling a coyote in its mouth like a ragdoll, despite being of similar, if not evidently smaller size". Well, I strongly doubt that a terrier would do this to a coyote of similar weight. Coyotes have also much larger skulls and more powerful bites than same sized dogs. Reddhole posted cases of coyotes killing sized terrier dogs and even larger dogs.

Now, lots of posters in web sites dedicated to small hunting terriers (airdales, jagdterriers, JRT's) post lots of exaggerated feats of these dogs, like their favorite pooch taking huge coyotes, bobcats or badgers. However, in most of these hunts the dogs act as pairs or packs and the hunters are behind them. It's not really a one-one fight between the "scrappy" little dog and the "huge" coyote (bobcat or badger).

Likely, wolves (like boars) were hunted by pairs or packs of wolfhounds followed by men on horseback or on foot. This was true in all of continental Europe in olde times, so it should have been the case in Ireland. Many breeders of "national" dogs (specially LGD's) claim that their dogs easily kill wolves on their own. Yet, there is no proof of this.

Ray Coppinger asked these breeders to explain and to give details of how their dogs easily took wolves. They never could do this. However, looking at the records you can see that more LGD's are killed by wolves than viceversa.

IMO, a adult male cheetah would loose against a large subspecies wolf or a working mastiff, but wolfhounds are also below these wolves and working mastiffs. Likely a cheetah vs a wolfhound is a close match. I slightly favor the cheetah because modern date wolfhounds have lost their functionality while cheetahs continue to kill everyday to survive.
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da pink
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Gato Gordo
Aug 13 2013, 07:56 AM


I'm sorry, but your sources are not reliable and must be taken with a BIG BIG BIG grain of salt. First, I'm very skeptical of embellished info posted by web sites dedicated to a given breed, specially when they mention "incredible" feats that happened centuries ago (and SPECIALLY if the dog breed is a national symbol). I guess that most posters would agree with me on this.

Yeah, I certainly would agree.

All those sites seem to re-hash the same folklore and legends, not provide any real evidence or source.

Shame, cos I bet the wolfhound of old was a truly formidable dog in it's own right, just not a Knight Killer nor capable of carrying wolves (generally accepted to be the size of Arctic wolves) off in their mouths
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Gato Gordo
Aug 13 2013, 08:51 AM
Vivec,

You won't find sources dedicated to the breed that question this info. However, simple morphological arguments (skull sizes) shows you that a wolfhound is not going to easily kill a wolf. You mention that you know of "terriers that can fling a coyote in its mouth like a ragdoll, despite being of similar, if not evidently smaller size". Well, I strongly doubt that a terrier would do this to a coyote of similar weight. Coyotes have also much larger skulls and more powerful bites than same sized dogs. Reddhole posted cases of coyotes killing sized terrier dogs and even larger dogs.

Now, lots of posters in web sites dedicated to small hunting terriers (airdales, jagdterriers, JRT's) post lots of exaggerated feats of these dogs, like their favorite pooch taking huge coyotes, bobcats or badgers. However, in most of these hunts the dogs act as pairs or packs and the hunters are behind them. It's not really a one-one fight between the "scrappy" little dog and the "huge" coyote (bobcat or badger).

Likely, wolves (like boars) were hunted by pairs or packs of wolfhounds followed by men on horseback or on foot. This was true in all of continental Europe in olde times, so it should have been the case in Ireland. Many breeders of "national" dogs (specially LGD's) claim that their dogs easily kill wolves on their own. Yet, there is no proof of this.

Ray Coppinger asked these breeders to explain and to give details of how their dogs easily took wolves. They never could do this. However, looking at the records you can see that more LGD's are killed by wolves than viceversa.

IMO, a adult male cheetah would loose against a large subspecies wolf or a working mastiff, but wolfhounds are also below these wolves and working mastiffs. Likely a cheetah vs a wolfhound is a close match. I slightly favor the cheetah because modern date wolfhounds have lost their functionality while cheetahs continue to kill everyday to survive.
I agree with your point that there does indeed appear to be a lot of Romanticism in the Wolfhound's history, and the absurdities you highlight are proof of that.

However, I would just like to inform you about a few of the other statements you made.

You say many hunting forums exaggerate the prowess of small hunting breeds, JRT, Patterdale, Jagdterrier on the topic of bobcat and coyote hunting. And you'd be right, whilst these breeds are used to hunt bobcat and coyotes they would be little match for a larger bobcat or coyote one on one, however, both Patterdale and Jagdterriers have killed adult badgers one on one, whilst this feat is rare because terriers usually flush out the badger and the hunter separates the two, however there are documented cases of these breeds killing adult badgers.

Secondly, you list Airedales as a "small hunting terrier". I'm assuming this is a simple error on your part, as Airedales are in fact the largest of the terrier breeds, and proper working examples are capable of killing coyotes, bobcats and badgers on there own.

Another point you made was that there is often little evidence of LGD'S killing wolves on there own. Whilst I do believe that a large Northern wolf would have the advantage over most every breed of dog, as evidenced as you stated by the large number of LGD'S killed by wolves in North America, it is in fact important to note than wolf subspecies from the various countries that have national LGD'S, such as Turkey are usually smaller in size than both the Northern wolf and many of the local LGD breeds, and LGD'S seem very capable of killing wolves on there native soil unassisted by humans or other dogs.

I'm not sure what context the Coppinger quote is taken from, whether he was asking North American LGD breeders or Native LGD breeders, but it seems strange that the native breeders wouldn't give him a straight answer on how effective there dogs were at dealing with the local subspecies of wolf:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Now, I'm not intending to start an argument or a long, drawn out debate because I do agree with your main point, the I Irish Wolfhounds history is sketchy at best, and it is pretty useless to compare an ancient working breed to a modern day recreation.

I just wanted to give you a bit more info about some of the points you made.
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FelinePowah
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The problem i see with all these LGD vs wolf interactions is that in the pictures the dogs never have any damage done to them....i mean they have supposedly fought and killed a wolf yet they come away scot free?? also surely if any fights are going to take place it will be away from humans as wolves are very shy and would not just run up to these dogs with humans present, so are we saying the dogs have dragged the wolfs dead body back to the farmer to show him his great deed??

Also if a wolf was losing a fight im sure it would high tail it out of there, i mean this isnt dog fighting ring the loser can run off and the LGD has no chance in catching a wolf on its own.
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Holy effin sheeiite. . . I agree with Felinepowah



"NURSE. . . BRING MY MEDS"
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