Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Carnivora. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Cougar v Komodo Dragon
Topic Started: Mar 27 2012, 04:40 PM (9,983 Views)
Taipan
Member Avatar
Administrator

Cougar - Puma concolor
The cougar (Puma concolor), also known as puma, mountain lion, mountain cat, catamount or panther, depending on the region, is a mammal of the family Felidae, native to the Americas. This large, solitary cat has the greatest range of any large wild terrestrial mammal in the Western Hemisphere, extending from Yukon in Canada to the southern Andes of South America. An adaptable, generalist species, the cougar is found in every major American habitat type. It is the second heaviest cat in the American continents after the jaguar. Although large, the cougar is most closely related to smaller felines. Cougars are slender and agile cats. They are the fourth largest cats and adults stand about 60 to 76 centimeters (2.0 to 2.5 ft) tall at the shoulders. The length of adult males is around 2.4 meters (8 ft) long nose to tail, with overall ranges between 1.5 and 2.75 m (5 and 9 ft) nose to tail suggested for the species in general. Males typically weigh 53 to 100 kilograms (115 to 220 pounds), averaging 62 kg (137 lb). Females typically weigh between 29 and 64 kg (64 and 141 lb), averaging 42 kg (93 lb). Cougar size is smallest close to the equator, and larger towards the poles. The largest recorded cougar was shot in Arizona and weighed 125.5 kilograms (276 pounds) after its intestines were removed, indicating that in life it could have weighed nearly 136.2 kilograms (300 pounds). Several male cougars in British Columbia weighed between 86.4 and 95.5 kilograms (190 to 210 pounds).

Posted Image

Komodo Dragon - Varanus komodoensis
The Komodo dragon (Varanus komodoensis), also known as the Komodo monitor, is a large species of lizard found in the Indonesian islands of Komodo, Rinca, Flores, Gili Motang and Gili Dasami. A member of the monitor lizard family (Varanidae), it is the largest living species of lizard, growing to a maximum length of 3 metres (9.8 ft) in rare cases and weighing up to around 70 kilograms (150 lb). Their unusual size has been attributed to island gigantism, since there are no other carnivorous animals to fill the niche on the islands where they live. As a result of their size, these lizards dominate the ecosystems in which they live. Komodo dragons hunt and ambush prey including invertebrates, birds, and mammals. Their group behaviour in hunting is exceptional in the reptile world. The diet of big Komodo dragons mainly consists of deer, though they also eat considerable amounts of carrion. In the wild, an adult Komodo dragon usually weighs around 70 kilograms (150 lb), although captive specimens often weigh more. The largest verified wild specimen was 3.13 metres (10 ft 3 in) long and weighed 166 kilograms (370 lb), including undigested food. The Komodo dragon has a tail as long as its body, as well as about 60 frequently replaced serrated teeth that can measure up to 2.5 centimetres (1 in) in length.

Posted Image

__________________________________________________________________-

DinosaurMichael
Mar 26 2012, 08:38 PM
Cougar vs Komodo Dragon
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Replies:
FelinePowah
Member Avatar
Pussy Lover
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
ARM0R
Sep 9 2013, 09:31 PM
1) this caiman got killed by ambush
2) Komodo Dragons are by far more agile than caimans
3) Komodo Dragons are specialized land predators unlike caimans
1) do you think the outcome would of been different without ambush?

2) And pumas are more agile the jaguars and felines in general are on another level of agility in regards to this lizard.

3) And they use there venom to kill and not strength and power like a caiman and id eaisly back a Caimen in a fight with a dragon.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ARM0R
Member Avatar
Herbivore
[ *  *  *  * ]
FelinePowah
Sep 10 2013, 12:45 AM
1) do you think the outcome would of been different without ambush?

2) And pumas are more agile the jaguars and felines in general are on another level of agility in regards to this lizard.

3) And they use there venom to kill and not strength and power like a caiman and id eaisly back a Caimen in a fight with a dragon.
1) So you´re trying to say caimans have never killed jaguars and generally don´t stand a chance no matter what?

2) The movements are still pretty much the same whereas the lizard´s movements aren´t even similar to a caiman. I´ve never seen a caiman run sideways while fighting prey - have you?

3) Actually, Komodo Dragons do kill with power (and razor sharp serrated teeth) depending on the victim. They´ll rarely wait for the venom to kill when hunting deer or wild pigs.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
FelinePowah
Member Avatar
Pussy Lover
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
ARM0R
Sep 10 2013, 01:06 AM
FelinePowah
Sep 10 2013, 12:45 AM
1) do you think the outcome would of been different without ambush?

2) And pumas are more agile the jaguars and felines in general are on another level of agility in regards to this lizard.

3) And they use there venom to kill and not strength and power like a caiman and id eaisly back a Caimen in a fight with a dragon.
1) So you´re trying to say caimans have never killed jaguars and generally don´t stand a chance no matter what?

2) The movements are still pretty much the same whereas the lizard´s movements aren´t even similar to a caiman. I´ve never seen a caiman run sideways while fighting prey - have you?

3) Actually, Komodo Dragons do kill with power (and razor sharp serrated teeth) depending on the victim. They´ll rarely wait for the venom to kill when hunting deer or wild pigs.
1) Maybe caimen have killed jaguar.....predators do sometimes get killed by their prey.

2) Its doesnt matter how you want to big up the dragons agility, its so far below the cats that it might as well be as slow as the caimen.

3) thats not really true now is it, most attacks on adult deer and pigs will result in the prey running off and slowly sucuming to the venom and then the dragon can catch up and finish off.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jinfengopteryx
Member Avatar
Apex Predator
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
FelinePowah
Sep 10 2013, 01:16 AM
2) Its doesnt matter how you want to big up the dragons agility, its so far below the cats that it might as well be as slow as the caimen.
So because it is a lot less manuverabe than a cat, it is on the level of the caiman?
Sorry, but that's a non sequitur, just because both are less agile than the cats, it doesn't mean both are equally agile, komodo dragons are still better adapted for terrestrial locomotion.
FelinePowah
Sep 10 2013, 01:16 AM
3) thats not really true now is it, most attacks on adult deer and pigs will result in the prey running off and slowly sucuming to the venom and then the dragon can catch up and finish off.
Than explain this:
Tyrant
Sep 8 2013, 07:44 PM
You obviously didn't read coherentsheaf's leaf post that I directed to you so I'm going to quote it down below.

Quote:
 
-There is more evidence that dragons are able to deal significant mechanical damage to buffaloes without the use of venom:
"Early in the morning of October 6, 1969, a pregnant female buffalo, which had already had four calves (about 400 kg and 9 years old), was tethered in the savanna near the village at the forest edge. At 0900 hr some boys were to bring it to water, but found it dead, with a large ora next to it. The Achilles tendon was bitten through and the belly had been ripped open. Recruiting villagers with spears and hounds, they returned, surrounded the ora, and killed it. " as quoted by Auffenberg, 1982

or

"During the month of September 1969, one male and three female water buffalos are known to have been attacked by a single large monitor near the village of Nggoer. All the buffalo were bitten on the lower limbs [see Pl. 3 and Auffenberg, 1978], and in one case the buffalo could not stand and had to be killed because the abductor tendon was bitten through." again Auffenberg 1982


If a lizard can shear through a buffalos legs, it could do the same to a cougars neck/limb. I for one don't know a single animal besides insects that can survive having their neck tore open, or retilate with chunks of meat ripped from their leg.
Or this:
Quote:
 
We conclude that the skull and associated musculature of V. komodoensis are particularly well-adapted to exert and resist forces generated during pull-back biting. The posterior rostrum presents extra mechanical advantage to hold the prey and withstand pull-back loads imposed by retraction of its skull, and the anterior part is equally well adapted for exerting lateral pull bites.
The highly fenestrated, lightweight skull of V. komodoensis is optimized to resist a complex and finely balanced combination of adductor forces and loads generated by cervical and other postcranial muscles during killing and feeding. This combination of anatomical and behavioural features, together with its markedly ziphodont dentition, allows the animal to kill and deflesh large prey efficiently, using relatively low jaw adductor driven bite force.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-7580.2008.00899.x/full


It is of course going to be hard to get the first bite, sure, but saying it's bite is not good, because it uses venom is a stretch.
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ferae
Member Avatar
Heterotrophic Organism
[ *  *  * ]
Tyrant
May 8 2013, 05:48 AM
Two questions.

Why are we discussing top running speed? Neither animal will be able to actually apply their full sprinting abilities in the fight.

And also why does their seem to be this belief by some that the cougar can simply dodge every single attack a komodo throws at it? While I agree the cat is much more nimble than the lizard and even favor it a bit, I sincerely doubt it will be hopping around like Bruce Lee. We only have one violent interaction between a cat and a monitor lizard and in that video the caracal initiated the fight by freaking bull rushing the lizard, which would be a terrible tactic to use against;t an animal with teeth as sharp as a komodos. Whats to say that the cougar won't be doing the same thing? Big cats after all generally fight other terrestrial animals by grappling with them or swiping at them with their paws, so why do we assume the cougar is suddenly going to adopt some sort of canid strategy where it somehow manages to circle around a komodo dragon faster than it can turn and jump on its exposed back?

Offtopic, is extremely hard a pantanal caiman kill a pantanal jaguar. Jaguar is way up that reptile in the food chain, pantanal caimans usally eats fish and very small mammals, and jaguars are pretty strong.
______________________________________________

On the topic subject I quote this post. Let's remember that a cougar doesn't know that a komodo has such a devasting bite, the cat propably doesn't even know how a komodo fight. This should give the lizard a good advantage.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
221Extra
Member Avatar
Omnivore
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Ferae
Sep 10 2013, 02:31 AM
On the topic subject I quote this post. Let's remember that a cougar doesn't know that a komodo has such a devasting bite, the cat propably doesn't even know how a komodo fight. This should give the lizard a good advantage.
Let's remember that Dragons experience no large, mammalian carnivores (i.e Puma, Wolf,), so that should give the Puma a good advantage. And Puma's do deal with large reptile with similar body & movement to the Dragons, Caiman & Alligator. They have more of a understanding to deal with large reptiles, more so then the Dragon's understanding of dealing with large, aggressive, mammalian carnivores.
Edited by 221Extra, Sep 10 2013, 02:43 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ferae
Member Avatar
Heterotrophic Organism
[ *  *  * ]
221extra
Sep 10 2013, 02:41 AM
Ferae
Sep 10 2013, 02:31 AM
On the topic subject I quote this post. Let's remember that a cougar doesn't know that a komodo has such a devasting bite, the cat propably doesn't even know how a komodo fight. This should give the lizard a good advantage.
Let's remember that Dragons experience no large, mammalian carnivores (i.e Puma, Wolf,), so that should give the Puma a good advantage. And Puma's do deal with large reptile with similar body & movement to the Dragons, Caiman & Alligator. They have more of a understanding to deal with large reptiles, more so then the Dragon's understanding of dealing with large, aggressive, mammalian carnivores.
I never heard of a puma dealing with caiman & alligators. Maybe because the pumas of my region are smaller and shyer than their northern cousins.
I really like felids and I usually back'em in fights, but I don't know if I overestimate pumas or if this fight would be really hard for the cat to win.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cidermaster
Omnivore
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Dragon just edges a very tough fight!
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
221Extra
Member Avatar
Omnivore
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Ferae
Sep 10 2013, 02:50 AM
I never heard of a puma dealing with caiman & alligators. Maybe because the pumas of my region are smaller and shyer than their northern cousins.

Taipan
Jul 19 2013, 10:53 PM
Florida Panthers ( a small subspecies of Cougar) do prey on Alligators

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image
http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1656/058.009.0420?journalCode=sena


Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ferae
Member Avatar
Heterotrophic Organism
[ *  *  * ]
221extra
Sep 10 2013, 03:05 AM
Ferae
Sep 10 2013, 02:50 AM
I never heard of a puma dealing with caiman & alligators. Maybe because the pumas of my region are smaller and shyer than their northern cousins.

Taipan
Jul 19 2013, 10:53 PM
Florida Panthers ( a small subspecies of Cougar) do prey on Alligators

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image
http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1656/058.009.0420?journalCode=sena


Well, thank you!
After this, I think I favour the puma.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
acmilan
Autotrophic Organism
[ *  * ]
a tiger can kill large croc (it has confirmed tiger does kill very large croc, 15 feet...)
a jaguar kill and feed medium size caiman
leopard may also prey on croc of its size
big cats are the worst nightmare for big reptiles
if cougar lives on the Komodo island, he would kill Komodo's Dragon quicky, like i said one bite at the neck and it will be over
cougar is the most agile between all big cats, makes incredible jump
even a 450 lbs brown bears is little scared by them (several cases shows bears sometimes avoid cougar)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ARM0R
Member Avatar
Herbivore
[ *  *  *  * ]
acmilan
Sep 10 2013, 04:54 AM
a tiger can kill large croc (it has confirmed tiger does kill very large croc, 15 feet...)
a jaguar kill and feed medium size caiman
leopard may also prey on croc of its size
big cats are the worst nightmare for big reptiles
if cougar lives on the Komodo island, he would kill Komodo's Dragon quicky, like i said one bite at the neck and it will be over
cougar is the most agile between all big cats, makes incredible jump
even a 450 lbs brown bears is little scared by them (several cases shows bears sometimes avoid cougar)
Guess what - A Komodo Dragon is neither a croc nor a caiman - it´s a fast, agile, venomous predatory lizard with serrated teeth as sharp as a good knife and a specialized land predator.

Quote:
 
The Komodo has two highly developed sensory organs – the olfactory and the Jacobson’s - which allow the dragon to detect rotting carcasses from distances as great as 10 kilometers.


The Komodo Dragon would probably smell the Cougar from miles away. It´d probably even successfully ambush the Cougar and take a bite to the legs which would end the fight just as quickly as the Cougar´s "bite to the neck".

Also I think them Bears simply don´t want to waste their time fighting a cougar. If a Brown Bear wants to kill a Cougar - it WILL kill a Cougar - in seconds.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
coherentsheaf
Member Avatar
Kleptoparasite
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
221extra
Sep 10 2013, 03:05 AM
Ferae
Sep 10 2013, 02:50 AM
I never heard of a puma dealing with caiman & alligators. Maybe because the pumas of my region are smaller and shyer than their northern cousins.

Taipan
Jul 19 2013, 10:53 PM
Florida Panthers ( a small subspecies of Cougar) do prey on Alligators

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image
http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1656/058.009.0420?journalCode=sena


A 2.7m alligator/crocodile weighs between 65 and 75kg based on isometry, comparable in size to a large kmodo dragon male.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
krunchy_taco
Unicellular Organism
[ * ]
Vobby
Sep 9 2013, 06:48 PM
^ there are reptiles wich very low stamina, but I don't think is the case of monitor lizards. When they fight each other, the wrestle for some minutes without getting tired. BTW, I doubt that stamina is a deciding factor here, both the contenders have what is needed to deliver a lot of damage in little time.
Stamina isn't THE deciding factor, it's ONE of the deciding factors. I'm still for the cougar.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Tyrant
Member Avatar
Herbivore
[ *  *  *  * ]
Yes cats like jaguars are cougars are known to kill similar sized crocodilians, but that's not relevant to this match, because komodo dragons are lizards not freaking alligators or caimans.

Buffaloes are mammals like cougars only a lot bigger and stronger, and komodo dragons can kill them. I guess that instantlly favors the lizard!

Edited by Tyrant, Sep 10 2013, 07:52 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Interspecific Conflict · Next Topic »
Add Reply