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Who wins?
Pantanal Jaguar 49 (55.7%)
Florida Black Bear 39 (44.3%)
Total Votes: 88
Pantanal Jaguar v Florida Black Bear
Topic Started: Mar 27 2012, 05:00 PM (27,829 Views)
Taipan
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Pantanal Jaguar - Panthera onca palustris
The jaguar (Panthera onca) is a big cat, a feline in the Panthera genus, and is the only Panthera species found in the Americas. The jaguar is the third-largest feline after the tiger and the lion, and the largest in the Western Hemisphere. The jaguar's present range extends from Southern United States and Mexico across much of Central America and south to Paraguay and northern Argentina. A study of the Jaguar in the Brazilian Pantanal region found average weights of 100 kilograms (220 lb) and weights of 136 kilograms (300 lb) or more are not uncommon in old males. A short and stocky limb structure makes the jaguar adept at climbing, crawling and swimming. The head is robust and the jaw extremely powerful. The jaguar hunts wild animals weighing up to 300 kilograms (660 lb) in dense jungle, and its short and sturdy physique is thus an adaptation to its prey and environment.

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Florida Black Bear - Ursus americanus floridanus
The Florida black bear (Ursus americanus floridanus) is a subspecies of the American black bear that has historically ranged throughout most of Florida and southern portions of Alabama and Georgia. Florida black bears are typically large-bodied with shiny black fur, a light brown nose and a short stubby tail. A white chest patch is also common on many but not all the bears. It is currently Florida's largest terrestrial mammal with an average male weight of 300 pounds (140 kg) and a few have grown above 500 pounds (230 kg). Females generally weigh less and on average are about 198 pounds (90 kg). Average adults have a length of between 4 feet (120 cm) and 6 feet (180 cm), and they also stand between 2.5 feet (76 cm) and 3.5 feet (110 cm) high at the shoulder.

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zombie
Mar 27 2012, 06:47 AM
jaguar vs american black bear
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Bull and Terrier
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100kg male jaguar vs 140kg male black bear ( both average ), 70/30 jaguar. Average female pantanal jaguar vs average female black bear, 90/10 ib favour of the jaguar
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DinosaurMichael
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At average sizes I favor the Bear, but at parity. The Jaguar wins without a doubt.
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zombie
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I favor the bear at average weights, but at parity or with only up to a 10 kg difference, I favor jaguar.
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Gregoire
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100 kg cat vs 140 kg bear - 55/45 in favor of cat. at parity 70/30 cat.
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Canidae
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A larger bear vs. a smaller Jaguar and the bear would dominate from the start and finish the Jaguar fairly on, the cat wouldn't be able to repel such a large, powerful animal like a big Black Bear boar.

Parity however and I.M.O it's 50 / 50. Both can take large prey and are well-armed. The Jaguar with it's large head, bone-crushing jaws and exceptionally burly frame is the best match for a small bear like this, say both at 300 lbs. I'd say the bear is the stronger of the two, as I can't imagine a cat of the same size as a bear doing similar things (rock flipping, tree tearing, etc) and has more damaging claws but the Jag's are superior for getting a grip and has the more powerful jaws. It is also more dextrous and agile whih could play strongly to its advantage with an opponent like a bear, even if the latter is more durable.

Though I must say I am very skeptical of a Jag's possible actual fighting ability due to their lack of recorded interactions (let alone kills) with other similar sized mammalian carivores.
Edited by Canidae, Jan 6 2013, 12:04 AM.
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ManEater
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Are there similar sized mammalian carnivores in the area where live jaguar? It can explain why there is no such interactions , even cougars who live in the same region are far smallest . The only one that i see is the spectacled bear , but so few datas .
At average , i will favor the jaguar , pantanals are monsters , and i am sure average black bear are not very impressive .
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Canidae
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vodmeister
Mar 29 2012, 01:41 AM
Canidae
Mar 29 2012, 01:28 AM
A larger bear vs. a smaller Jaguar and the bear would dominate from the start and finish the Jaguar fairly on, the cat wouldn't be able to repel such a large, powerful animal like a big Black Bear boar.

Parity however and I.M.O it's 50 / 50. Both can take large prey and are well-armed. The Jaguar with it's large head, bone-crushing jaws and exceptionally burly frame is the best match for a small bear like this, say both at 300 lbs. I'd say the bear is the stronger of the two, as I can't imagine a cat of the same size as a bear doing similar things (rock flipping, tree tearing, etc) and has more damaging claws but the Jag's are superior for getting a grip and has the more powerful jaws. It is also more dextrous and agile whih could play strongly to its advantage with an opponent like a bear, even if the latter is more durable.

Though I must say I am very skeptical of a Jag's actual fighting ability due to their lack of recorded interactions (let alone kills) with other similar sized mammalian carivores and seeing two get whooped on by a small female Peccary.
Big cat are in my opinion, pound for pound, stronger than bears. Remember, no terrestrial mammal has as much muscle mass (%) as big cats.
Anything solid to back that claim about muscle mass?

And I'd like to see a cat tear up a tree or flip a rock as a bear can, even at relative sizes.

@ManEater - That's just the thing, despite Cougars and Spectacled Bears in the areas I've never read of anything larger than an Ocelot killed by a Jaguar.
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zombie
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Canidae
Mar 29 2012, 02:02 AM
@ManEater - That's just the thing, despite Cougars and Spectacled Bears in the areas I've never read of anything larger than an Ocelot killed by a Jaguar.

Spectacled bears live in cold andes mountains I think, so jungle dwelling jaguar wouldnt meet them.
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ManEater
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I saw some datas on interactions jaguar-spectacled bear , so yes they can encounter each other .
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Canidae
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A.) Didn't mention other animals in comparison.
B.) Muscle doesn't directly equal outright strength anyway.
C.) Accounts on big cat strength from the Tiger book should be taken with a grain of salt as was discussed.
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Bull and Terrier
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Canidae
Mar 29 2012, 01:28 AM
A larger bear vs. a smaller Jaguar and the bear would dominate from the start and finish the Jaguar fairly on, the cat wouldn't be able to repel such a large, powerful animal like a big Black Bear boar.

Parity however and I.M.O it's 50 / 50. Both can take large prey and are well-armed. The Jaguar with it's large head, bone-crushing jaws and exceptionally burly frame is the best match for a small bear like this, say both at 300 lbs. I'd say the bear is the stronger of the two, as I can't imagine a cat of the same size as a bear doing similar things (rock flipping, tree tearing, etc) and has more damaging claws but the Jag's are superior for getting a grip and has the more powerful jaws. It is also more dextrous and agile whih could play strongly to its advantage with an opponent like a bear, even if the latter is more durable.

Though I must say I am very skeptical of a Jag's actual fighting ability due to their lack of recorded interactions (let alone kills) with other similar sized mammalian carivores and seeing two get whooped on by a small female Peccary.
I really think it will be the oppsit.
And I believe the jaguar would be both stronger, much stronger bite, better gripping claws, be faster and more agile, kill much faster. What kind of proof do you have that the black bear has more muzzles at parity? Atleast Vodmeister came up with a study about muzzle mass in a big cat, and it was impressive to see how much muzzle mass lions have, I believe the jaguar would have even more due to their bone robusticy and build. We can also look at the bone robusticy study, where the jaguar actually have very high scores.
I don't think that it will make any diffrence who is strongest at parity, the jaguar will make short work off any bear at parity.

What has turning big stones got to do with strength? I guess that bear sometimes do it to look for food. Therefore there is not reason for a big cat to do it either. When have bears teared up a tree?

I have seen a black bear been whopped by a single apbt. Also by a cat :P Jaguars hunts peccaries regularly and kill them very fast when they get a hold, but there is not reason to take chances against the peccaries weapons when you're life depends on you not getting bad injuries.

Also they have killed black caimans, tapirs, anacondas. There are only cougars and spectacled bears which are land predators that size or almost that size in their range as far as I know. When have a black bear killed a same sized predator? They can't even kill the much smalles cougar in interactions.

I actually think the bear has to be atleast 150kg vs 100kg jaguar to make this near 50/50.
Edited by Bull and Terrier, Mar 29 2012, 06:53 AM.
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Canidae
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Bull and Terrier
Mar 29 2012, 06:48 AM
Canidae
Mar 29 2012, 01:28 AM
A larger bear vs. a smaller Jaguar and the bear would dominate from the start and finish the Jaguar fairly on, the cat wouldn't be able to repel such a large, powerful animal like a big Black Bear boar.

Parity however and I.M.O it's 50 / 50. Both can take large prey and are well-armed. The Jaguar with it's large head, bone-crushing jaws and exceptionally burly frame is the best match for a small bear like this, say both at 300 lbs. I'd say the bear is the stronger of the two, as I can't imagine a cat of the same size as a bear doing similar things (rock flipping, tree tearing, etc) and has more damaging claws but the Jag's are superior for getting a grip and has the more powerful jaws. It is also more dextrous and agile whih could play strongly to its advantage with an opponent like a bear, even if the latter is more durable.

Though I must say I am very skeptical of a Jag's actual fighting ability due to their lack of recorded interactions (let alone kills) with other similar sized mammalian carivores and seeing two get whooped on by a small female Peccary.
I really think it will be the oppsit.
And I believe the jaguar would be both stronger, much stronger bite, better gripping claws, be faster and more agile, kill much faster. What kind of proof do you have that the black bear has more muzzles at parity? Atleast Vodmeister came up with a study about muzzle mass in a big cat, and it was impressive to see how much muzzle mass lions have, I believe the jaguar would have even more due to their bone robusticy and build. We can also look at the bone robusticy study, where the jaguar actually have very high scores.
I don't think that it will make any diffrence who is strongest at parity, the jaguar will make short work off any bear at parity.

What has turning big stones got to do with strength? I guess that bear sometimes do it to look for food. Therefore there is not reason for a big cat to do it either. When have bears teared up a tree?

I have seen a black bear been whopped by a single apbt. Also by a cat :P Jaguars hunts peccaries regularly and kill them very fast when they get a hold, but there is not reason to take chances against the peccaries weapons when you're life depends on you not getting bad injuries.

Also they have killed black caimans, tapirs, anacondas. There are only cougars and spectacled bears which are land predators that size or almost that size in their range as far as I know. When have a black bear killed a same sized predator? They can't even kill the much smalles cougar in interactions.

I actually think the bear has to be atleast 150kg vs 100kg jaguar to make this near 50/50.
What does flipping a rock have to do with strength?! Do I have to explain!?

Also the Lion was said to be the most superior in it's class by quite a bit - so not relative to the un-mentioned Jaguar.
Ursus posted accounts of Sun Bears turning large (what appeared to be hardwoods) trees into pulp on O.C too.

And no, you saw a Black Bear chased up a tree by a cat. The Peccary actually engaged into physical combat with the Jaguar and won skirmishes, despite the larger cat having every advantage - including numbers! Replace that pig with a bear and the Jags would be treed at very least.

And I've not actually read of a Jaguar killing a healthy adult Tapir, suprisingly.
Black Bears don't need to kill Cougars - only displace them from kills.

Show me one genuinely impressive act by a Jaguar - compared to other cats I've not really seen anything to compare!
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ManEater
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And you know why canidae , there is a huge lack of data on the jaguar , it is the less studied of all the big cats by far ...
btw , there are many accounts where a predator don't suceed to kill a smallest and weakest prey (two jaguars with the peccary) , it is not representative of normal hunt .
Edited by ManEater, Mar 29 2012, 07:16 AM.
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Canidae
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ManEater
Mar 29 2012, 07:13 AM
And you know why canidae , there is a huge lack of data on the jaguar , it is the less studied of all the big cats by far ...
Whilst that is certainly true ManEater, there was a study or two posted on O.C (I'll check if any were transfered over) on a few of prey items taken - Tapir as far I know wasn't in there and prey wasn't all tha impressive. Certainly not as so compared to Cougar.

I'll see if I can find more data.

That is also true - but it hasn't stopped fans using similar occurences in the past! :P
Still, I don't think I've seen any predator as comparativley superior screw up that bad before.

Edit - Found and put in the profile, read and note no Tapir kills, which I.M.O are the most impressive prey in the area.
Edited by Canidae, Mar 29 2012, 07:29 AM.
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