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Eat this, scaly T. rex fans!; HAHAHAHAHAAA!
Topic Started: Apr 5 2012, 04:51 AM (16,950 Views)
Eotyrannus
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http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/04/04/yutyrannus-a-giant-tyrannosaur-with-feathers/#more-6682

Finally, there is good evidence that large tyrannosaurs had feathers! This is outside of the true tyrannosaurs, being more closely related to creatures such as Guanlong, but sheer size alone makes it a good bet that Tyrannosaurus had feathers.
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Cat
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Wombatman
Apr 10 2015, 07:40 PM
It is possible that tyrannosaurus had some amount of feathers somewhere, but some people is starting to believe that sauropods and ceratopsians were giant balls of fuzz. I have seen even feathered Carnotaurus and Stegosaurus, animals which had scaly reptile skin and scutes.
I agree. For Carnotaurus there is strong evidence that it was scaly, as I posted in another thread.
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blaze
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Allosaurusatrox
Apr 10 2015, 05:10 PM
blaze
Apr 10 2015, 02:19 AM
Undescribed, conflicting reports and the same goes for those of other tyrannosaurids.
The only proof of T. rex fuzz comes from a single find of supposed fuzz on Yutyrannus. And it's certainly possible for the tyrannosaur lineage to have "got bald" as time went on.

And before you bring up Dilong and Guanlong, these two are too far removed from tyrannosauriods to provide adequate examples of their coverings.
Point is you have no evidence it went bald but we do have evidence that suggests it was not bald (phylogenetic bracketing, intermediate adult metabolism similar to a 1 ton mammal) so to champion the former as more likely is just evidence of your personal bias.

Quote:
 
comes from a single find of supposed fuzz on Yutyrannus.


Where do you research these things? the feathers in Yutyrannus are not "a single supposed find", it is clear that your decision to use these words means either you have actullay read very little of Yutyrannus or want to belittle the importance of it, they are there whetever you want to see them or not, no paleontologist has come and said "those are not feathers" even the crazy BANDits like Lingham-Soliar, the 3 specimens preserve patches of feathers from all over their bodies.

Also Dilong and Guanlong are Tyrannosauroids, I suppose you meant to use another clade (Tyrannosauridae perhaps?).
Edited by blaze, Apr 11 2015, 02:06 AM.
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theropod
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Allosaurusatrox
Apr 10 2015, 05:10 PM
blaze
Apr 10 2015, 02:19 AM
Undescribed, conflicting reports and the same goes for those of other tyrannosaurids.
The only proof of T. rex fuzz comes from a single find of supposed fuzz on Yutyrannus. And it's certainly possible for the tyrannosaur lineage to have "got bald" as time went on.

And before you bring up Dilong and Guanlong, these two are too far removed from tyrannosauriods to provide adequate examples of their coverings.
Not true. The evidence for "T. rex fuzz" comes from several tyrannosaur specimens (at least one Dilong and three of Yutyrannus; Xu et al. 2004, 2012) with unequivocal evidence of feathers, as well as a near-universal bracketing of tyrannosauroids by unequivocally feathered taxa. Honestly, have you even looked at the papers?

By comparison, the evidence against it can at best be called flimsy (at worst: non-existant), it entirely consists of figure 1.26B and three sentences in Larson (2008), and what these sentences tell us is that "most of the skin patches (more than a dozen) were found on the bottom side of the articulated tail", which is a region that may well have been scaly in even an extensively feathered species (as illustrated by Kulindadromeus, with its scaly tail and feathered body, Godefroit et al. 2014). also note how only one such patch is figured, and there isn’t even any reference mate to the skin’s structure in the text. So you’re making quite a bit of an assumption actually, for all we know some of them could even preserve feathers without it being known to us.

–––REFERENCES:
Godefroit, Pascal; Sinitsa, Sofia M.; Dhouailly, Danielle; Bolotsky, Yuri L.; Sizov, Alexander V.; McNamara, Maria E.; Benton, Michael J.; Spagna, Paul: A Jurassic ornithischian dinosaur from Siberia with both feathers and scales. Science, Vol. 345 (2014); 6195; pp. 451-455
Larson, Neal L.: One Hundred Years of Tyrannosaurus rex: The Skeletons. In: Larson, Peter; Carpenter, Kenneth: Tyrannosaurus rex the Tyrant King. Bloomington (2008); pp. 1-56
Xu, Xing; Norell, Mark A.; Kuang, Xuewen; Wang, Xialin; Zhao, Qi: Basal tyrannosauroids from China and evidence for protofeathers in tyrannosauroids. Nature, Vol. 431 (2004); 7009; pp. 680-684
Xu, Xing; Wang, Kebai; Zhang, Ke; Ma, Qingyu; Xing, Lida; Sullivan, Corwin; Hu, Dongyu; Cheng, Shuqing; Wang, Shuo: A gigantic feathered dinosaur from the Lower Cretaceous of China. Nature, Vol. 484 (2012); 7392; pp. 92-95
Edited by theropod, Apr 11 2015, 08:29 PM.
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DinosaurFan95
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Wombatman
Apr 10 2015, 07:40 PM
It is possible that tyrannosaurus had some amount of feathers somewhere, but some people is starting to believe that sauropods and ceratopsians were giant balls of fuzz. I have seen even feathered Carnotaurus and Stegosaurus, animals which had scaly reptile skin and scutes.
Oh I hate it when people do that.
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Spartan
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Feathers on Yutyrannus and Dilong are evidence that some Tyrannosauroidea were feathered, but not that Tyrannosaurus Rex had feathers. Dilong was much smaller than Tyrannosaurus and even the large Yutyrannus was 4 times smaller than an adult T. Rex. I think it may very well be possible for juvenile Tyrannosaurus Rex to be feathered, but I doubt a 6-8 ton animal would have many visible feathers.
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theropod
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Please, to those people who enthuse about reptile skin and skutes in dinosaurs; could you assemble a small collection of scientific literature to support your claims?
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Grimace
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Wombatman
Apr 10 2015, 07:40 PM
It is possible that tyrannosaurus had some amount of feathers somewhere, but some people is starting to believe that sauropods and ceratopsians were giant balls of fuzz. I have seen even feathered Carnotaurus and Stegosaurus, animals which had scaly reptile skin and scutes.
I still think a triceratops with huge peacock feathers stuck to it's frill would be super cool.

I mean, i don't think it had them, but god would that be cool.
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Spartan
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theropod
Apr 11 2015, 05:37 AM
Please, to those people who enthuse about reptile skin and skutes in dinosaurs; could you assemble a small collection of scientific literature to support your claims?
I don't "enthuse" about reptile skin in dinosaurs, but there is Carnotaurus and skin impressions of T. Rex also show that it was at least partially scaly.
Saying Dinosaurs did not have scales is equally ridiculous as saying they didn't have feathers.
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theropod
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Dinosaurs do have scales (or if you want to be more precise, scutes and reticulae) , in no way does this mean they don't have feathers too.
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Taipan
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Spartan
Apr 11 2015, 07:20 AM
theropod
Apr 11 2015, 05:37 AM
Please, to those people who enthuse about reptile skin and skutes in dinosaurs; could you assemble a small collection of scientific literature to support your claims?
I don't "enthuse" about reptile skin in dinosaurs, but there is Carnotaurus and skin impressions of T. Rex also show that it was at least partially scaly.
Saying Dinosaurs did not have scales is equally ridiculous as saying they didn't have feathers.


Feathers were the exception rather than the rule for dinosaurs
Survey of dinosaur family tree finds that most had scaly skin like reptiles.


Matt Kaplan
27 December 2013
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The late-Cretaceous Triceratops were among the majority of dinosaurs that had featheless, scaly skins.

Birds evolved from dinosaurs, and dinosaur fossils are often covered with impressions of feathers, which made some palaeontologists speculate whether feathers were a common trait that appeared early in their history. Now a team analysing feathers on the overall dinosaur family tree argues this is taking things too far.

Palaeontologists have known for about two decades that theropods, the dinosaur group that contained the likes of Tyrannosaurus and Velociraptor and from which modern birds evolved, were covered in feathery structures from early on in their history.

By contrast, the ornithischian lineage — which contained animals such as Triceratops, Stegosaurus and Ankylosaurus — and the huge, long-necked dinosaurs in the sauropod lineage were considered to be scaly, similar to modern reptiles. Indeed, all evidence pointed in this direction until the discovery, beginning in 20021, 2, of a few ornithischians with filament-like structures in their skin. This led to speculation that feather-like structures were an ancestral trait for all dinosaur groups.

Keen to know more, palaeontologists Paul Barrett of the Natural History Museum in London and David Evans of the Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto created a database of all known impressions of dinosaur skin tissues. They then identified those that had feathers or feather-like structures, and considered relationships in the dinosaurian family tree.

The results, which Barrett revealed at the Society of Vertebrate Palaeontology’s annual meeting in Los Angeles in late October, indicate that although some ornithischians, such as Psittacosaurus and Tianyulong, had quills or filaments in their skin, the overwhelming majority had scales or armour. Among sauropods, scales were also the norm.

“I’d go so far as to say that all dinosaurs had some sort of genetic trait that made it easy for their skin to sprout filaments, quills and even feathers,” says Barrett. ”But with scales so common throughout the family tree, they still look like they are the ancestral condition.”

The findings provide “a valuable reality check for all of us who have been enthusiastic about suggesting dinosaurs were primitively feathered”, says Richard Butler, a palaeontologist at the University of Birmingham, UK, who was not associated with the study.

Even so, Butler points out that the findings are not set in stone. “We don’t have primitive dinosaurs from the late Triassic and early Jurassic periods preserved in the right conditions for us to find skin or feather impressions,” he says. “This picture could quickly change if we start finding early dinosaurs with feathers on them.”

Nature doi:10.1038/nature.2013.14379

http://www.nature.com/news/feathers-were-the-exception-rather-than-the-rule-for-dinosaurs-1.14379
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maker
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^that's an old one, here's the recent one:
University of Bristol
 
Fossils found in Siberia suggest all dinosaurs had feathers
Press release issued: 24 July 2014
The first ever example of a plant-eating dinosaur with feathers and scales has been discovered in Russia. Previously only flesh-eating dinosaurs were known to have had feathers so this new find indicates that all dinosaurs could have been feathered.

The new dinosaur, named Kulindadromeus zabaikalicus as it comes from a site called Kulinda on the banks of the Olov River in Siberia, is described in a paper published today in Science.

Kulindadromeus shows epidermal scales on its tail and shins, and short bristles on its head and back. The most astonishing discovery, however, is that it also has complex, compound feathers associated with its arms and legs.

Birds arose from dinosaurs over 150 million years ago so it was no surprise when dinosaurs with feathers were found in China in 1996. But all those feathered dinosaurs were theropods, flesh-eating dinosaurs that include the direct ancestors of birds.

Lead author Dr Pascal Godefroit from the Royal Belgian Institute of Natural History in Brussels said: "I was really amazed when I saw this. We knew that some of the plant-eating ornithischian dinosaurs had simple bristles, and we couldn’t be sure whether these were the same kinds of structures as bird and theropod feathers. Our new find clinches it: all dinosaurs had feathers, or at least the potential to sprout feathers."

The Kulinda site was found in summer 2010 by Professor Dr Sofia Sinitsa from the Institute of Natural Resources, Ecology and Cryology SB RAS in Chita, Russia. In 2013, the Russian-Belgian team excavated many dinosaur fossils, as well as plant and insect fossils.

The feathers were studied by Dr Maria McNamara (University of Bristol and University College, Cork) and Professor Michael Benton (University of Bristol), who has also worked on the feathers of Chinese dinosaurs, and Professor Danielle Dhouailly (Université Joseph Fourier in Grenoble, France) who is a specialist on the development of feathers and scales in modern reptiles and birds.

Dr McNamara said: "These feathers are really very well preserved. We can see each filament and how they are joined together at the base, making a compound structure of six or seven filaments, each up to 15mm long."

Professor Dhouailly said: "Developmental experiments in modern chickens suggest that avian scales are aborted feathers, an idea that explains why birds have scaly legs. The astonishing discovery is that the molecular mechanisms needed for this switch might have been so clearly related to the appearance of the first feathers in the earliest dinosaurs."

Kulindadromeus was a small plant-eater, only about 1m long. It had long hind legs and short arms, with five strong fingers. Its snout was short, and its teeth show clear adaptations to plant eating. In evolutionary terms, it sits low in the evolutionary tree of ornithischian dinosaurs. There are six skulls and several hundred partial skeletons of this new dinosaur at the Kulinda locality.

This discovery suggests that feather-like structures were likely widespread in dinosaurs, possibly even in the earliest members of the group. Feathers probably arose during the Triassic, more than 220 million years ago, for purposes of insulation and signalling, and were only later co-opted for flight. Smaller dinosaurs were probably covered in feathers, mostly with colourful patterns, and feathers may have been lost as dinosaurs grew up and became larger.

This research was named as one of the Top 10 Scientific Breakthroughs of 2014 by Science magazine

Further information

Paper


'A Jurassic ornithischian dinosaur from Siberia with both feathers and scales' by Pascal Godefroit, Sofia M. Sinitsa, Danielle Dhouailly, Yuri L. Bolotsky, Alexander V Sizov, Maria E. McNamara, Michael J. Benton and Paul Spagna in Science
http://www.bris.ac.uk/news/2014/july/fossils-found-in-siberia-suggest-all-dinosaurs-had-feathers.html
But I don't disagree that all dinosaurs had scales.
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Jinfengopteryx
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Even though I am a feather-dino fan, I have to say that your article does not refute the one of Taipan, it rather states the other position. After all, Taipan's article said:

“I’d go so far as to say that all dinosaurs had some sort of genetic trait that made it easy for their skin to sprout filaments, quills and even feathers”

So, Kulindadromeus doesn't really destroy it.

I am still on the feather side though, since scales and very sparse body cover that won't preserve (like in large mammals today, that would be most likely for large dinos as well) don't contradict each other. I don't see why a genetic trait that eases to create something should be that successful in a group like dinosaurs. Its evolutionary advantages are only indirect.
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Hatzegopteryx
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Edited by Hatzegopteryx, Apr 22 2015, 01:53 AM.
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maker
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Where's the poll?
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