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| Saurophaganax maximus v Torvosaurus tanneri | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 25 2012, 08:41 PM (18,988 Views) | |
| Taipan | Apr 25 2012, 08:41 PM Post #1 |
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Saurophaganax maximus Saurophaganax ("lizard-eating master") is a genus of allosaurid dinosaur from the Morrison Formation of Late Jurassic Oklahoma (latest Kimmeridgian age, about 151 million years ago). Some paleontologists consider it to be a species of Allosaurus (A. maximus). Saurophaganax represents a very large (13 metres (43 ft) long). Saurophaganax was one of the largest carnivores of Late Jurassic North America. Ray even gave an estimate of the body length of fifteen metres and Chure of fourteen, though later estimations have been lower. The fossils known of Saurophaganax (both the possible New Mexican material and the Oklahoma material) are known from the latest part of the Morrison formation, suggesting that they were either always uncommon or appeared rather late in the fossil record. Saurophaganax was large for an allosaurid, and bigger than both its contemporaries Torvosaurus tanneri and Allosaurus fragilis. Being much rarer than its contemporaries, making up one percent or less of the Morrison theropod fauna, not much about its behavior is known. Stovall in Oklahoma also unearthed a considerable number of Apatosaurus specimens, a possible prey for a large theropod. ![]() Torvosaurus tanneri Torvosaurus (play /ˌtɔrvɵˈsɔrəs/) is a genus of large theropod dinosaur that lived during the Late Jurassic period (mid-late Kimmeridgian stage in North America, early Tithonian stage in Europe). The name Torvosaurus means "savage lizard" and is derived from the Latin torvus ("savage") and the Greek σαυρος/sauros ("lizard"). Fossilized remains of Torvosaurus have been found in North America and Portugal. Torvosaurus reached 9 to 11 meters (30 to 36 ft) in length and an estimated weight of about 2 metric tons (2.2 tons), which made it the largest carnivore of its time, except for Epanterias (which may have been just a big Allosaurus) and Saurophaganax.The size of Torvosaurus is not definitely known because only incomplete material has been found, but it was a large theropod. North American Torvosaurus material is estimated as belonging to an individual about 9.0 meters long (29 ft), with a weight of about 1.95 metric tons (2.15 tons). Material from Portugal indicates even larger animals. In 2006 a nearly complete maxilla found in Portugal was assigned to Torvosaurus tanneri. It measured 63 cm in length (2.13 ft), significantly larger than the 47 cm (1.54 ft) long maxilla of the American specimen (total skull length 118 cm [3.87 ft]). Based on this, a skull length of 158 cm (5.18 ft) was estimated for the Portuguese specimen. This is comparable to the largest T. rex skulls, and makes Torvosaurus the largest known Jurassic theropod (surpassing Saurophaganax/Allosaurus maximus and Edmarka), and among the largest of all theropods. A partial femur from another individual belongs to an animal estimated as 11 m (36 ft) long. ![]() __________________________________________________________________________
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| Carcharadon | Sep 24 2012, 08:43 PM Post #16 |
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Shark Toothed Reptile
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Saurophaganax mauls Torvosaurus to death![]() Sauro: 13 m Torvo: 11 m Saurophaganax wins 65/35, bigger, more useful arms, faster, more agile, and has an axehead |
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| FireCrown | Sep 24 2012, 09:36 PM Post #17 |
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Felines,Ursids,and Canid
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Saurophaganax is way bigger thanks Dark Allo I agree with the score 65/35 |
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| theropod | Sep 24 2012, 09:47 PM Post #18 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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11m torvosaurus is far too small, it ought to be 12-13m, and that skeletal is only one reconstruction, have a look at some others and you´ll see not all look that strange (I´m talking about skeletals for the material is fragmentary). 13m vs 13m: 50/50 13m vs 15m: saurophaganax 12m vs 12m: 50/50 13m vs 12m: torvosaurus |
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| Verdugo | Sep 24 2012, 10:02 PM Post #19 |
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Large Carnivores Enthusiast
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Actually 11-12m, where is the 13m base on ?? |
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| theropod | Sep 25 2012, 03:57 AM Post #20 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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Footprint, skull size, what do you want to hear? geckos comparisons show a 13m torvosaurus, and depending on how it´s morphology was the animal with the 79cm footprint could have been bigger than that specimen, even though I don´t really believe it was much longer than 12m. now 11m is really only another misconception which based on another specimen and because it is the only figure the wikipage gives the myth of torvosaurus being 11m at max spread. |
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| Jinfengopteryx | Sep 25 2012, 04:20 AM Post #21 |
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Aspiring paleontologist, science enthusiast and armchair speculative fiction/evolution writer
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But we have an Epanterias vs Acrocanthosaurus therad and Epanterias is smaller than Saurophaganax. |
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| Jinfengopteryx | Sep 25 2012, 04:22 AM Post #22 |
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Aspiring paleontologist, science enthusiast and armchair speculative fiction/evolution writer
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Thomas R. Holtz described Torvosaurus in his genus list(which I cited at least 2 times)as A large, heavily built megalosaurid with very powerful arms.. |
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| Mauro20 | Sep 25 2012, 08:37 AM Post #23 |
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Badass
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Saurophaganax wins IMO |
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| Verdugo | Sep 25 2012, 02:42 PM Post #24 |
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Large Carnivores Enthusiast
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Honestly, using footprint to scale up the size of an animal is immature and superficial
I don't know why but Holtz genus list is not 100% accurate, prehaps it was outdated ![]() Ekrixinatosaurus is only 6m long while Majungasaurus is up to 9m long "Megalosaurs seem to be less barrel-chested than more advanced tetanurans. As far as the depth of the torso...given the length of the legs it's a pretty normal depth, but Torvosaurus is a bit longer than allosaurids and more derived taxa, and it seems to have a shallow pelvis, which reinforces the feeling that it's skinny." This is what Hartman say about Torvosaurus Edited by Verdugo, Sep 25 2012, 02:42 PM.
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| theropod | Sep 25 2012, 10:31 PM Post #25 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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we should use the newer version, not the one from 2008, but it is obvious from the different skeletals that the built is unclear. the newest version still says it´s heavily built (Last updated 1/13/12 Torvosaurus savage reptile Late Jurassic (155.7-150.8 MYA) 39.4 ft (12 m) Elephant Colorado, Utah; Portugal? A large, heavily built megalosaurid with very powerful arms.) as I already says I have noticed some oddities in hartmans skeletals and there are probably cases where he takes remains of smaller specimen and includes them together with the remains of larger ones. it´s a difference whether you take a an 11m torvosaurus femur and match them to a reconstruction which basing on skull lenght portrays a 13m animal or whether you don´t mix them together. and the 4*FL=HH formula is totally overconservative, just look at actual depictions and how large the feet are in skeletons that where mounted, so basing it on that is nowhere too speculative. |
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| Verdugo | Sep 25 2012, 11:04 PM Post #26 |
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Large Carnivores Enthusiast
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Do you have the newer version ??
Do you notice this ?? "Megalosaurs seem to be less barrel-chested than more advanced tetanurans."
What is "HH" ?? I mean you cannot use a large footprint to scale up the size of an animal. We have a dentary of MUCPv-95 but we cannot 100% sure that it is 8% larger than the holotype, we don't have enough specimens to compare. The same would be applied to Torvosaurus, not to mention that MUCPv-95 is an ACTUAL fossil. Even when you have the actual fossil, scaling the size of an animal is still EXTREME, like MSNM V4047. MSNM V4047 is an actual fossil but its size is still a debate topics for many people include scientists, paleontologist,.... Now your ultra 13m Torvosaurus comes from FOOTPRINTS, that's why all record breakers, all largest Sauropod come from FOOTPRINTS, that's why Broome Titanosaurs is so large, because it's just FOOTPRINTS, it doesn't have ACTUAL fossil. I don't know why you guys believe a GODZILLA-sized animal is existed. Also, you cannot take a large footprint as an average size of an animal, just like i take UCMP 137538 as an average size of T rex, that's so biaed |
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| SpinoInWonderland | Sep 25 2012, 11:20 PM Post #27 |
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The madness has come back...
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HH = hip height FL = foot length |
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| SpinoInWonderland | Sep 25 2012, 11:23 PM Post #28 |
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The madness has come back...
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I think he meant the legs... |
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| theropod | Sep 25 2012, 11:26 PM Post #29 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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footprints are a lot better than very fragmentary remains imo. at least they show a complete foot, the formula is obviously too conservative and there is not much flesh on a theropod foot that would make it too long I know what hartman wrote, but I also noted that there are several skeletals, not only his, and also that he did appearantly mix up remains from several individuals. the new version ought to be online. |
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| SpinoInWonderland | Sep 25 2012, 11:33 PM Post #30 |
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The madness has come back...
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We should use this one instead: It's roughly as robust as Scott Hartman's Torvosaurus, but the legs are actually scaled to match the individual's size... |
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