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Domestic cats in a serious fight
Topic Started: Apr 29 2012, 04:03 PM (9,544 Views)
Lycaon
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Taipan
May 3 2012, 07:55 PM
Post away 1 on 1 accounts of intraspecific wild canine species killing each other then.

Whoa, I was talking about domestic fighting dogs. Those breeds don't display the typical canine gestures that save themselves in intraspecies conflict.
Domestic canines killing each other in minutes are impressive enough for me as that is what I was arguing.
Edited by Lycaon, May 3 2012, 11:58 PM.
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Cat
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Lycaon
May 3 2012, 11:55 PM
Taipan
May 3 2012, 07:55 PM
Post away 1 on 1 accounts of intraspecific wild canine species killing each other then.

Whoa, I was talking about domestic fighting dogs. Those breeds don't display the typical canine gestures that save themselves in intraspecies conflict.
Domestic canines killing each other in minutes are impressive enough for me as that is what I was arguing.
Yes, fighting breeds are more likley to kill each other than wild canids, if they aren't separated by human intervention. But, if the two combatants belong to the same or similar breeds and are matched in size and conditions, it's not common that they kill each other quickly. From what I have seen on the web these dog fights seem quite protracted affairs.
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Canidae
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Taipan
May 3 2012, 07:55 PM
Lycaon
May 1 2012, 11:31 AM
FelinePowah
May 1 2012, 04:41 AM
When do domestic dogs kill each other in normal fights??

Unless they they are really un matched in breeds like jack russell vs bull mastiff

And the damage that domestic dogs can put out is very minimal.
In a serious fights involving hunting and fighting breeds can readily lead to the death.
Body signals and submitting are natural ways canids avoid such serious scenarios, the vast majority of dogs utilize this which is why fights to the death or very serious is not a common occurrence.

Dogs can produce a significant amount of damage, enough to cause the death of another individual.
You can pit two apbts, and other fighting breeds together and the end result can easily be death. Dog fighters don't want their dogs to die for the most part and separation is done to save the loosing dog.

Of course there is not need to explain anything to you because nothing gets through to you. I could (hypothetically) show a video of a fight between two fighting dogs that result in death under 2 minutes literally but you would just blow it off and re-post your earlier nonsense.

Dogs being unable to kill each other or being poor killers is a misnomer. Certainly they posses the ability to severely injure each other without the factor of infections.
Post away 1 on 1 accounts of intraspecific wild canine species killing each other then.
Will wolves, coyotes and A.W.Ds be ok? (Possibly Red Foxes too.)
But you're still asking for something unrealistic considering the pack dynamics of most canids and you should know it.
Edited by Canidae, May 4 2012, 01:19 AM.
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Lycaon
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May 4 2012, 12:40 AM
Yes, fighting breeds are more likley to kill each other than wild canids, if they aren't separated by human intervention. But, if the two combatants belong to the same or similar breeds and are matched in size and conditions, it's not common that they kill each other quickly. From what I have seen on the web these dog fights seem quite protracted affairs.
It largly depends on how the fights are handled. Yes dogs clearly display the abilty to fight for long periods of time, even hours! But many times the dogs are seperated when one individual claealy has the uppur hand. That way the dogs are able to fight again without the one individual simply being beaten to death.

However some dogfighters dont practice breaking up the dogs in a fight or at least overestimated/underestimated one of the dogs.
The dogs that have killed eachother that I have talled about were of the same breed size and lilkey condition. Death resulted in under 5 miniutes for several fights and it all was due to a bite and shake on the throat area.

Befor I encountered these videos I doubted the abilty of fighting dogs being swift killers against eachother, though I never doubted their fighting ability. Looser skin helps alot in prolonging dog fights, it makes a thoat bite harder to achieve.
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Lycaon
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Canidae
May 4 2012, 01:15 AM
Will wolves, coyotes and A.W.Ds be ok? (Possibly Red Foxes too.)
But you're still asking for something unrealistic considering the pack dynamics of most canids and you should know it.
Yes there was an incident of a one on one fight with an awd that would have resulted in death if the loser did not submit at the last moment. But it was obvious that if the dog in the advantagous possition wanted to it could have easilly killed the other. It rushed at the loser every time it tried to stand up and left it alone if it just laid on the ground.
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Red Dog


As Canidae mentioned, documenting single wolves killing other wolves is difficult due to wolves living in groups and most fights not being directly observed.

Alpha Wolf Intraspecific Killing on Isle Royale

An alpha wolf typically kills one to three wolves in his or her lifetime.

http://www.isleroyalewolf.org/overview/overview/wolves.html

AWD Near Fight to Death:

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Wolf Kills Coyote:

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Wolf Kills Another Wolf
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Male Eastern Wolf Kills Adult Female Eastern Wolf:

The fourth case was a lactating female, Pretty 5, killed by her father, as
confirmed by DNA analysis. She was killed while in her rendezvous site
with her pups. The fate of the pups could not be determined. The previous
year she had dispersed from her natal territory, then returned to it with a
mate and denned after the territory had been left vacant. Her father, who
had become a wandering single, made periodic trips back to his territory,
encountered and killed her.


http://thetotaldog.ca/wolf_study.pdf

Male Red Wolf Kills Male Red Wolf - Coyote Hybrid:

Today's wolf focus (11301M) was collared late last winter while still a yearling and living with the pack in his natal home-range just south of Columbia, NC. The subsequent collar downloads provided us with accurate home range data from where he was born and much more. Because most young wolves disperse from the pack between 12-24 months of age, we were able to follow 11301M as he left his natal home range this spring and began his travels from place to place. We could see his path as he seemed to go from wolf pack to wolf pack looking for a place to live. We could see how he skirted the core areas of the adjacent packs in order to stay out of trouble with other wolves (a smart thing for a young single wolf). We even tracked him as he moved completely around Lake Phelps before stopping on Pocosin Lakes NWR where a female wolf (11358F-also born in 2004) had just paired with a sterilized, radio-collared wolf/coyote hybrid.

The most recent download showed how 11301M not only displaced the hybrid out of the pack's area, but likely killed him. After retrieving the carcass, our theory seemed to be correct. As I fly over Pocosin Lakes today, I can see that 11301M has paired with 11358F. Together, they will now form the new Pocosin Lakes pack. These types of wolf/non-wolf interactions where the non-wolves are displaced, are some of the observations the new GPS collars will allow us to record.


Captive Eastern Coyote - 5 Serious Injures Including 3 Deaths


Quote:
 
The following details some fighting behaviors between eastern coyotes in captivity. The reference is:

Silver and Silver, "Growth and Behavior of the Coyote-like Canid of Northern New England and Observations on Canid Hybrids", 1969, The Wildlife Society, Wildlife Monographs, 17 : pages 24-25

As you can see, quite a bit of the fighting was one on one and serious. Also, the fighting was confined to within each sex; with female fights being more frequent and violent.

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Edited by Red Dog, May 4 2012, 03:04 AM.
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Canidae
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Reddhole posted most of the Coyote info, but I have seen them mentioned a text somewhere on intraspecific killing and have seen it cited as a cuase of their mortality - not in much depth though.

I also feel the 'Wolf Wars' article can be brought up here :
“They’re not all ripped apart, but if you skin them there’s all kinds of hemorrhaging (from bite marks),” Meier said.

Both Meier and Grangaard have found dead wolves with teeth holes in their skulls as a result of fights. Nearly all the male wolves Grangaard has found dead from fights have holes in their skulls from canine teeth.

“It’s always just one bite in the head and a skull fracture,” he said. “There ain’t no bite marks on the necks or shoulders.

“Their intention is to kill, not get in a fight,” Grangaard said. “When they bite, it’s some place that’s going to do damage.”

Grangaard has come across the aftermath of several wolf fights over the years, both while trapping wolves and tracking them for the Department of Fish and Game. The fights don’t appear to last long, he said.

“You look at the tracks in snow and I’ll bet that fight lasts two minutes,” Grangaard said. “There’s very few tracks and a wolf laying there dead.”


And whilst A.W.Ds are more submission based and smaller groups will always flee from larger ones reducing fatal intraspecific conflicts it can still happen. Also interesting is their tendancy to focus on same-sex animals in confrontations and ignore the opposite gender, with females reported more aggressive than the males. Creel and Creel reported 2 instances of fatalities, one of the lead female who was fatally mauled right down to the bone in her hind quarters and another of a mother and 3 pups dissapearing and reported dead in a clash of packs with equal numbers (9 each) of adults.

If the planets align and my scanner actually works for once I'll see if I can upload this in the near future.
Edited by Canidae, May 4 2012, 03:27 AM.
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FelinePowah
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So now we are comparing domestic cats to wolves and coyotes?
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Taipan
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Reddhole
May 4 2012, 02:47 AM
As Canidae mentioned, documenting single wolves killing other wolves is difficult due to wolves living in groups and most fights not being directly observed.

So only wolves and some incidents with captive coyotes.
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Canidae
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Taipan
May 4 2012, 05:29 PM
Reddhole
May 4 2012, 02:47 AM
As Canidae mentioned, documenting single wolves killing other wolves is difficult due to wolves living in groups and most fights not being directly observed.

So only wolves and some incidents with captive coyotes.
And A.W.Ds :
And whilst A.W.Ds are more submission based and smaller groups will always flee from larger ones reducing fatal intraspecific conflicts it can still happen. Also interesting is their tendancy to focus on same-sex animals in confrontations and ignore the opposite gender, with females reported more aggressive than the males. Creel and Creel reported 2 instances of fatalities, one of the lead female who was fatally mauled right down to the bone in her hind quarters and another of a mother and 3 pups dissapearing and reported dead in a clash of packs with equal numbers (9 each) of adults.

If the planets align and my scanner actually works for once I'll see if I can upload this in the near future.

I'll look into Red Foxes more later.
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Lycaon
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FelinePowah
May 4 2012, 05:08 AM
So now we are comparing domestic cats to wolves and coyotes?
Taipan wanted to compare them with wild canids. I figured it would make more sense to compare with domestic dogs killing each other; something that domestic cats seem less capable of doing.
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Sicilianu
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It is pretty rare for wild animals to fight to the death. Most species have forms of ritualized combat or display with the sole purpose of determining a superior without major injury. I am not really sure how a species ability to excel at intraspecific combat is relevant to interspecific combat. The former, as previously said, is highly ritualized, while the later is most likely to be a stream-lined and quick procedure, if it even happens.
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FelinePowah
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But wether you think domestic cats do a lot of damage or not, they do have some of the most spectacular fights of any small carnivoran.



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Vita
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Small canids like foxes are like a blur. You can barely tell they're grappling.
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FelinePowah
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Vita
May 8 2012, 09:49 AM
Small canids like foxes are like a blur. You can barely tell they're grappling.

Thats cus they dont grapple, not like felines anyway lol
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