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Orca (Killer Whale) v Deinosuchus rugosus
Topic Started: May 5 2012, 11:04 PM (16,428 Views)
Taipan
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Orca (Killer Whale) - Orcinus orca
he killer whale (Orcinus orca), commonly referred to as the orca whale or orca, and less commonly as the blackfish, is a toothed whale belonging to the oceanic dolphin family. Killer whales are found in all oceans, from the frigid Arctic and Antarctic regions to tropical seas. Killer whales as a species have a diverse diet, although individual populations often specialize in particular types of prey. Some feed exclusively on fish, while others hunt marine mammals such as sea lions, seals, walruses and even large whales. Killer whales are regarded as apex predators, lacking natural predators. Killer whales distinctively bear a black back, white chest and sides, and a white patch above and behind the eye. Killer whales have a heavy and robust body with a large dorsal fin up to 2 metres (6.6 ft) tall. Behind the fin, they have a dark grey "saddle patch" across the back. Antarctic killer whales may have pale grey to nearly white backs. Adult killer whales are very distinctive and are not usually confused with any other sea creature. The killer whale's teeth are very strong and covered in enamel. Its jaws are a powerful gripping apparatus, as the upper teeth fall into the gaps between the lower teeth when the mouth is closed. The front teeth are inclined slightly forward and outward, thus allowing the killer whale to withstand powerful jerking movements from its prey while the middle and back teeth hold it firmly in place. Killer whales are the largest extant members of the dolphin family. Males typically range from 6 to 8 metres (20–26 ft) long and weigh in excess of 6 tonnes (5.9 long tons; 6.6 short tons). Females are smaller, generally ranging from 5 to 7 metres (16–23 ft) and weighing about 3 to 4 tonnes (3.0 to 3.9 long tons; 3.3 to 4.4 short tons). The largest male killer whale on record was 9.8 metres (32 ft), weighing over 10 tonnes (9.8 long tons; 11 short tons), while the largest female was 8.5 metres (28 ft), weighing 7.5 tonnes (7.4 long tons; 8.3 short tons).

Posted Image

Deinosuchus rugosus
Deinosuchus is an extinct genus related to the alligator that lived 73 to 80 Ma (million years ago), during the late Cretaceous period. The name translates as "terrible crocodile" and is derived from the Greek deinos (δεινός), "terrible", and soukhos (σοῦχος), "crocodile". The first remains were discovered in North Carolina (United States) in the 1850s; the genus was named and described in 1909. Additional fragments were discovered in the 1940s and were later incorporated into an influential, though inaccurate, skull reconstruction at the American Museum of Natural History. Knowledge of Deinosuchus remains incomplete, but better cranial material found in recent years has expanded scientific understanding of this massive predator. Although Deinosuchus was far larger than any modern crocodile or alligator—measuring up to 12 m (39 ft) and weighing up to 8.5 metric tons (9.4 short tons)—in overall appearance it was fairly similar to its smaller relatives. It had large, robust teeth that were built for crushing, and its back was covered with thick hemispherical osteoderms. One study indicates that Deinosuchus may have lived for up to 50 years, growing at a rate similar to that of modern crocodilians, but maintaining this growth over a much longer period of time. Deinosuchus was probably capable of killing and eating large dinosaurs. It may have also fed upon sea turtles, fish, and other aquatic and terrestrial prey.

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__________________________________________________________________________

DinosaurMichael
 
Orca vs Deinosuchus
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Replies:
Verdugo
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Quote:
 
I favor the Orca, with a HUGE speed and intelligence advantage, also has a powerful bite, and the croc would have a tough time even biting the whale in the first place. The crocs armor will not stop a killer whale's bite... Or rams, for that matter!

Cetaceans have wimpy bite compare to croc and Pliosaur, they don't have the adaptations for biting strong like croc, it's true that orca still has strong bite but Deinosuchus bite is much much much much much much much much much much -> ∞ more powerful.
Forrest
 
My reason for claiming giant pliosaurs as the most powerful biters is
because of the architecture of the skull and the size of the jaw
muscles. The skulls are relatively high at the back, and the temporal
fenestrae in which the jaw muscles fit are huge - I could quite
literally stand inside them. This combination gives a powerful bite
over a wide range of gape, and it is clear from some of the specimens
of ichthyosaur and plesiosaur which have been predated by large
pliosaurs that even a relatively small individual - skull length of
around 1.2 meters judging from the dimensions of the tooth array -
could bite a medium sized ichthyosaur in half.

The geometry of the jaw musculature of whales is somewhat different.
The coronoid eminence around which the jaw muscles attach is more
posterior in the jaw, significantly reducing the force exerted at
tooth positions. Also, and unlike pliosaurs, the architecture of the
skull has to allow for a large brain, reducing the space available for
jaw muscles.


Orca skull does look impressive, but a skull comparison would show who is actually superior to who in term of biting

Orca skull
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

Deinosuchus skull
Posted Image
Posted Image
And here (the pic is too large)

Deinonychus would literally crush your orca

Mismatch in favor of Deinonychus
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SpinoInWonderland
The madness has come back...
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Verdugo
Dec 5 2012, 07:16 PM
Deinonychus would literally crush your orca

Mismatch in favor of Deinonychus
lol lol lol
Super Deinonychus?
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DinosaurMichael
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Fragillimus335
Dec 5 2012, 04:17 PM
I favor the Orca, with a HUGE speed and intelligence advantage, also has a powerful bite, and the croc would have a tough time even biting the whale in the first place. The crocs armor will not stop a killer whale's bite... Or rams, for that matter!
Also, the whale likely had a decent weight advantage, more accurate estimates for Deino place it around 8-10m and 4-5 tons. An average male orca is ~6.5 tons, at maxes they are 8.5 and 10+ tons respectively.
Posted Image
Oh really. You got proof to show that. Most estimates say Deinosuchus is 40 feet long and 8-10 tons.

Also why must I keep telling people. Intelligence will not help, all animals fight with their instincts. Guess what Dolphins are more intelligent than Sharks yet they still fall prey to them. rolleyes rolleyes rolleyes

Lol. I laugh at the idea that people thinks intelligence will play a role, when there has been less intelligent animals that has killed more intelligent animal. (Sharks preying on Dolphins for example.) lol
Edited by DinosaurMichael, Dec 6 2012, 12:33 PM.
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Fragillimus335
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DinosaurMichael
Dec 6 2012, 12:26 PM
Fragillimus335
Dec 5 2012, 04:17 PM
I favor the Orca, with a HUGE speed and intelligence advantage, also has a powerful bite, and the croc would have a tough time even biting the whale in the first place. The crocs armor will not stop a killer whale's bite... Or rams, for that matter!
Also, the whale likely had a decent weight advantage, more accurate estimates for Deino place it around 8-10m and 4-5 tons. An average male orca is ~6.5 tons, at maxes they are 8.5 and 10+ tons respectively.
Posted Image
Oh really. You got proof to show that. Most estimates say Deinosuchus is 40 feet long and 8-10 tons.

Also why must I keep telling people. Intelligence will not help, all animals fight with their instincts. Guess what Dolphins are more intelligent than Sharks yet they still fall prey to them. rolleyes rolleyes rolleyes

Lol. I laugh at the idea that people thinks intelligence will play a role, when there has been less intelligent animals that has killed more intelligent animal. (Sharks preying on Dolphins for example.) lol
It helps when you are already even/stronger than your opponent, who do you think would win in a fight, a crocodile, or a crocodile as intelligent as an ape? :)

8 ton estimates are for hypothetical max Deino's. Most adults cluster around 4-6 tons, thus we must use the max for the Orca too, 10+ tons. Weight advantage goes to the whale. My professor actually published some of the more modest weight estimates for Deinosuchus, and he is a mega croc/gator lover.
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Elosha11
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Verdugo
Dec 5 2012, 07:16 PM
Quote:
 
I favor the Orca, with a HUGE speed and intelligence advantage, also has a powerful bite, and the croc would have a tough time even biting the whale in the first place. The crocs armor will not stop a killer whale's bite... Or rams, for that matter!

Cetaceans have wimpy bite compare to croc and Pliosaur, they don't have the adaptations for biting strong like croc, it's true that orca still has strong bite but Deinosuchus bite is much much much much much much much much much much -> ∞ more powerful.
Forrest
 
My reason for claiming giant pliosaurs as the most powerful biters is
because of the architecture of the skull and the size of the jaw
muscles. The skulls are relatively high at the back, and the temporal
fenestrae in which the jaw muscles fit are huge - I could quite
literally stand inside them. This combination gives a powerful bite
over a wide range of gape, and it is clear from some of the specimens
of ichthyosaur and plesiosaur which have been predated by large
pliosaurs that even a relatively small individual - skull length of
around 1.2 meters judging from the dimensions of the tooth array -
could bite a medium sized ichthyosaur in half.

The geometry of the jaw musculature of whales is somewhat different.
The coronoid eminence around which the jaw muscles attach is more
posterior in the jaw, significantly reducing the force exerted at
tooth positions. Also, and unlike pliosaurs, the architecture of the
skull has to allow for a large brain, reducing the space available for
jaw muscles.


Orca skull does look impressive, but a skull comparison would show who is actually superior to who in term of biting

Orca skull
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

Deinosuchus skull
Posted Image
Posted Image
And here (the pic is too large)

Deinonychus would literally crush your orca

Mismatch in favor of Deinonychus
Good comparison of the skull sizes. Deinosuchus had a massive bite that was also comparatively very wide in relation to other crocodilians. I do note that the orca skulls you showed were relatively small and probably females. Here's a much larger skull from probably a male orca. Deinosuchus' skull is still larger, but not by so great a margin.

Posted Image.

Although I narrowly favored Deinosuchus earlier in this thread, I do note that the fight cannot simply be boiled down to which animal had the larger skull. Orca has distinct advantages, including agility and speed in water deep enough for it to fully maneuver, possibly a substantial size and bulk advantage (despite the croc's larger skull), an ability to powerfully ram the croc as well as bite it, and a stamina advantage. An intelligence advantage as well, if you subscribe to the belief that the orca's intelligence would permit it to perceive weaknesses in Deinosuchus, such as the softer underbelly or its limited stamina. Of course Deinosuchus packs a larger and probably stronger bite and armor.
Edited by Elosha11, Dec 6 2012, 01:45 PM.
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bone crusher
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Kinda depends on how heavy Deinosuchus really was, if it's 5-6 tons then Orca takes this easily. If it's 8-10 tons which I very much doubt so, then slight edge to the croc.
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DinosaurMichael
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Fragillimus335
Dec 6 2012, 01:19 PM
DinosaurMichael
Dec 6 2012, 12:26 PM
Fragillimus335
Dec 5 2012, 04:17 PM
I favor the Orca, with a HUGE speed and intelligence advantage, also has a powerful bite, and the croc would have a tough time even biting the whale in the first place. The crocs armor will not stop a killer whale's bite... Or rams, for that matter!
Also, the whale likely had a decent weight advantage, more accurate estimates for Deino place it around 8-10m and 4-5 tons. An average male orca is ~6.5 tons, at maxes they are 8.5 and 10+ tons respectively.
Posted Image
Oh really. You got proof to show that. Most estimates say Deinosuchus is 40 feet long and 8-10 tons.

Also why must I keep telling people. Intelligence will not help, all animals fight with their instincts. Guess what Dolphins are more intelligent than Sharks yet they still fall prey to them. rolleyes rolleyes rolleyes

Lol. I laugh at the idea that people thinks intelligence will play a role, when there has been less intelligent animals that has killed more intelligent animal. (Sharks preying on Dolphins for example.) lol
It helps when you are already even/stronger than your opponent, who do you think would win in a fight, a crocodile, or a crocodile as intelligent as an ape? :)

8 ton estimates are for hypothetical max Deino's. Most adults cluster around 4-6 tons, thus we must use the max for the Orca too, 10+ tons. Weight advantage goes to the whale. My professor actually published some of the more modest weight estimates for Deinosuchus, and he is a mega croc/gator lover.
Animals still fight with instincts anyway.

And oh thanks for correcting me. I always thought 8-10 was the average weight for Deinosuchus.
Edited by DinosaurMichael, Dec 6 2012, 10:30 PM.
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Elosha11
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Yes, if Deinosuchus was as "small" as 4-6 tons, then I will change my assessment and favor the orca.
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Archosaur
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Elosha11
Dec 6 2012, 01:33 PM
Verdugo
Dec 5 2012, 07:16 PM
Quote:
 
I favor the Orca, with a HUGE speed and intelligence advantage, also has a powerful bite, and the croc would have a tough time even biting the whale in the first place. The crocs armor will not stop a killer whale's bite... Or rams, for that matter!

Cetaceans have wimpy bite compare to croc and Pliosaur, they don't have the adaptations for biting strong like croc, it's true that orca still has strong bite but Deinosuchus bite is much much much much much much much much much much -> ∞ more powerful.
Forrest
 
My reason for claiming giant pliosaurs as the most powerful biters is
because of the architecture of the skull and the size of the jaw
muscles. The skulls are relatively high at the back, and the temporal
fenestrae in which the jaw muscles fit are huge - I could quite
literally stand inside them. This combination gives a powerful bite
over a wide range of gape, and it is clear from some of the specimens
of ichthyosaur and plesiosaur which have been predated by large
pliosaurs that even a relatively small individual - skull length of
around 1.2 meters judging from the dimensions of the tooth array -
could bite a medium sized ichthyosaur in half.

The geometry of the jaw musculature of whales is somewhat different.
The coronoid eminence around which the jaw muscles attach is more
posterior in the jaw, significantly reducing the force exerted at
tooth positions. Also, and unlike pliosaurs, the architecture of the
skull has to allow for a large brain, reducing the space available for
jaw muscles.


Orca skull does look impressive, but a skull comparison would show who is actually superior to who in term of biting

Orca skull
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

Deinosuchus skull
Posted Image
Posted Image
And here (the pic is too large)

Deinonychus would literally crush your orca

Mismatch in favor of Deinonychus
Good comparison of the skull sizes. Deinosuchus had a massive bite that was also comparatively very wide in relation to other crocodilians. I do note that the orca skulls you showed were relatively small and probably females. Here's a much larger skull from probably a male orca. Deinosuchus' skull is still larger, but not by so great a margin.

Posted Image.

Although I narrowly favored Deinosuchus earlier in this thread, I do note that the fight cannot simply be boiled down to which animal had the larger skull. Orca has distinct advantages, including agility and speed in water deep enough for it to fully maneuver, possibly a substantial size and bulk advantage (despite the croc's larger skull), an ability to powerfully ram the croc as well as bite it, and a stamina advantage. An intelligence advantage as well, if you subscribe to the belief that the orca's intelligence would permit it to perceive weaknesses in Deinosuchus, such as the softer underbelly or its limited stamina. Of course Deinosuchus packs a larger and probably stronger bite and armor.
Actually i believe deinosuchus has the advantage in agility not because it has better swimming abilities than the orca, but because it is much more flexible(it can turn and bite). Orca needs to make o large circle in order to position itself for a bite if the croc is behind her,while the croc just needs to turn and bite.
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Vivyx
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Deinosuchus easily, larger, deadlier and a whole lot more aggressive.
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Wyvax
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I'm agreeing with Archosaur here, whether at max weights or average weights, I favor the Deinosuchus because it has greater flexibility. If the orca rams it, it has the chance to turn and nab it in it's jaws. If the orca latches on with a bite, the croc most certainly will be able to counter attack with it's own killer maw, which would do far mor damage to the orca than vice-versa I believe.
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Drift
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The powerful bite would put an end to the orca IMO
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Vivyx
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Verdugo
Dec 5 2012, 07:16 PM
Quote:
 
I favor the Orca, with a HUGE speed and intelligence advantage, also has a powerful bite, and the croc would have a tough time even biting the whale in the first place. The crocs armor will not stop a killer whale's bite... Or rams, for that matter!

Cetaceans have wimpy bite compare to croc and Pliosaur, they don't have the adaptations for biting strong like croc, it's true that orca still has strong bite but Deinosuchus bite is much much much much much much much much much much -> ∞ more powerful.
Forrest
 
My reason for claiming giant pliosaurs as the most powerful biters is
because of the architecture of the skull and the size of the jaw
muscles. The skulls are relatively high at the back, and the temporal
fenestrae in which the jaw muscles fit are huge - I could quite
literally stand inside them. This combination gives a powerful bite
over a wide range of gape, and it is clear from some of the specimens
of ichthyosaur and plesiosaur which have been predated by large
pliosaurs that even a relatively small individual - skull length of
around 1.2 meters judging from the dimensions of the tooth array -
could bite a medium sized ichthyosaur in half.

The geometry of the jaw musculature of whales is somewhat different.
The coronoid eminence around which the jaw muscles attach is more
posterior in the jaw, significantly reducing the force exerted at
tooth positions. Also, and unlike pliosaurs, the architecture of the
skull has to allow for a large brain, reducing the space available for
jaw muscles.


Orca skull does look impressive, but a skull comparison would show who is actually superior to who in term of biting

Orca skull
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

Deinosuchus skull
Posted Image
Posted Image
And here (the pic is too large)

Deinonychus would literally crush your orca

Mismatch in favor of Deinonychus
Deinonychus? It's DeinoSUCHUS not NYCHUS.
Edited by Vivyx, Apr 10 2013, 02:39 AM.
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Jinfengopteryx
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Aspiring paleontologist, science enthusiast and armchair speculative fiction/evolution writer
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You know what he ment.

P.S. Verdugo, why do you show a quote what reffers to Pliosaurs?
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cheeseburger
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Even though the orca would more agile, I can't see it being able to inflict any critical damage on the giant gator- and it's doubtful the cetacean could even penetrate the parts of the crocodilian that were armoured. Deinosuchus' jaws could easily crush the orca's skull or tear off it's fins.
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