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Orca (Killer Whale) v Deinosuchus rugosus
Topic Started: May 5 2012, 11:04 PM (16,423 Views)
Taipan
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Orca (Killer Whale) - Orcinus orca
he killer whale (Orcinus orca), commonly referred to as the orca whale or orca, and less commonly as the blackfish, is a toothed whale belonging to the oceanic dolphin family. Killer whales are found in all oceans, from the frigid Arctic and Antarctic regions to tropical seas. Killer whales as a species have a diverse diet, although individual populations often specialize in particular types of prey. Some feed exclusively on fish, while others hunt marine mammals such as sea lions, seals, walruses and even large whales. Killer whales are regarded as apex predators, lacking natural predators. Killer whales distinctively bear a black back, white chest and sides, and a white patch above and behind the eye. Killer whales have a heavy and robust body with a large dorsal fin up to 2 metres (6.6 ft) tall. Behind the fin, they have a dark grey "saddle patch" across the back. Antarctic killer whales may have pale grey to nearly white backs. Adult killer whales are very distinctive and are not usually confused with any other sea creature. The killer whale's teeth are very strong and covered in enamel. Its jaws are a powerful gripping apparatus, as the upper teeth fall into the gaps between the lower teeth when the mouth is closed. The front teeth are inclined slightly forward and outward, thus allowing the killer whale to withstand powerful jerking movements from its prey while the middle and back teeth hold it firmly in place. Killer whales are the largest extant members of the dolphin family. Males typically range from 6 to 8 metres (20–26 ft) long and weigh in excess of 6 tonnes (5.9 long tons; 6.6 short tons). Females are smaller, generally ranging from 5 to 7 metres (16–23 ft) and weighing about 3 to 4 tonnes (3.0 to 3.9 long tons; 3.3 to 4.4 short tons). The largest male killer whale on record was 9.8 metres (32 ft), weighing over 10 tonnes (9.8 long tons; 11 short tons), while the largest female was 8.5 metres (28 ft), weighing 7.5 tonnes (7.4 long tons; 8.3 short tons).

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Deinosuchus rugosus
Deinosuchus is an extinct genus related to the alligator that lived 73 to 80 Ma (million years ago), during the late Cretaceous period. The name translates as "terrible crocodile" and is derived from the Greek deinos (δεινός), "terrible", and soukhos (σοῦχος), "crocodile". The first remains were discovered in North Carolina (United States) in the 1850s; the genus was named and described in 1909. Additional fragments were discovered in the 1940s and were later incorporated into an influential, though inaccurate, skull reconstruction at the American Museum of Natural History. Knowledge of Deinosuchus remains incomplete, but better cranial material found in recent years has expanded scientific understanding of this massive predator. Although Deinosuchus was far larger than any modern crocodile or alligator—measuring up to 12 m (39 ft) and weighing up to 8.5 metric tons (9.4 short tons)—in overall appearance it was fairly similar to its smaller relatives. It had large, robust teeth that were built for crushing, and its back was covered with thick hemispherical osteoderms. One study indicates that Deinosuchus may have lived for up to 50 years, growing at a rate similar to that of modern crocodilians, but maintaining this growth over a much longer period of time. Deinosuchus was probably capable of killing and eating large dinosaurs. It may have also fed upon sea turtles, fish, and other aquatic and terrestrial prey.

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DinosaurMichael
 
Orca vs Deinosuchus
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Spartan
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Very convincing. Rather answer my question.
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Thalassophoneus
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Everyone does this. Look at this.

http://carnivoraforum.com/topic/9418646/5/#new
http://carnivoraforum.com/topic/10093953/1/

Here! What do you think that all these people use? Don't be ridiculous. We use the maximum we have for each animal cause that's the best we can do. That's what is done here and in any similar site.
Edited by Thalassophoneus, Mar 8 2016, 07:24 AM.
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Spartan
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I only see Ausar using parity sizes there. Please answer the question.

And I know of course that people often use maximum sizes, but not by default and they explicitly say so when they use them.
Edited by Spartan, Mar 8 2016, 07:32 AM.
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Thalassophoneus
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It would be unfair cause we are supposed to compare the best of Deinosuchus with the best of the killer whale. We simulate a scenario where each animal gives the best it has. If we have to use averages then the sperm whale is 41 t. and 5 Transient Orcas can kill it easily as they surpass it in mass. But I guess that we aren't comparing a sperm whale with five Transient Orcas. We are comparing THE sperm whale with five Orcas of THE Transient type.
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Spartan
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Mantrid
Mar 8 2016, 07:58 AM
It would be unfair cause we are supposed to compare the best of Deinosuchus with the best of the killer whale.
You just made that up lol.


Quote:
 
If we have to use averages then the sperm whale is 41 t. and 5 Transient Orcas can kill it easily as they surpass it in mass.


I always said in the other thread I'm fine with using averages. I doubt your average orca weighs more than 8200kg.
Edited by Spartan, Mar 8 2016, 08:25 AM.
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Lightning
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At average weights, the orca wins because it seems quite a bit bigger.

At equal weights, I'd favour the deinosuchus, even in the open sea. It's armoured, more durable and has a more formidable bite.

Also, orcas seem to take several hours to kill large animals. I know that the baleen whale calves that orcas hunt are larger than them but, usually, several orcas take part in these hunts and they still take several hours to kill. And isn't there also an account of 2 male orcas taking hours to kill a 8 metre whale shark which probably wasn't much larger than them?

Nile crocodiles, on the other hand, kill zebras and wildebeest (which aren't much smaller than the average crocodile) within minutes or seconds and a crocodile even killed a giraffe on land:

https://youtu.be/_tWYu8VjPGw

Since the deinosuchus can twist it's body, whereas the orca needs to turn its entire body, I don't think the deinosuchus would have much trouble catching the orca.

Also, if an 80 year old, 3-legged croc (which is definitely much slower than a prime aged, fully healthy croc) can catch a bull shark which is much smaller and swifter than himself, then a deinosuchus should be able to bite a similar sized orca when it comes close.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/11015385/Jaws-vs-Claws-Crocodile-wrestles-bull-shark-in-Australian-river.html

I know rivers can be shallow and murky but this shark is small and bull sharks have really good eyesight, so it could likely see and move around properly.

Orca's intelligence will not be of much help here imo. Orcas can do tonic immobility on sharks because they coexisted with them for millions of years. However, the average orca has never seen a crocodile before. The orca wouldn't be able to work out the deinosuchus' weakness just by looking at it.

And the orca's behaviour will also play a part in its downfall imo. Orcas do not kill prey straightaway. Rather, they play around and have fun. For example, head butting or tail swinging at seals when they could much more easily kill it with bite. Or trying to drown a baleen whale calf when they'd be able to kill it quicker if they just kept biting it. If the orca tried to have fun with a deinocuchus, it could be a fatal mistake.

At maximum weights, we can't say who'd win because we don't know the maximum size of deinosuchus since we have only very few specimen. However, since modern crocodilians show absolutely huge variation in size, with maximum sized specimens being 3 or 4 times the size of average specimens, I think that the largest deinosuchuses were larger than the largest orcas. But that's just my opinion.
Edited by Lightning, Mar 27 2018, 08:29 AM.
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Thergi
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As I’m assuming was expressed earlier in this thread, and every other one regarding d. Rugosus, the croc most likely only reached around ~7.6 meters for the biggest specimens if I recall, and the only bigger Deion species, d. Riograndensis, being only up to ~8 meters.
No species of crocodyloform really has much of a chance against an orca in a neutral water depth, bar large purussauus specimens and possibly Crocodylus bugtiensis, as the orca possesses every advantage except weaponry and lateral movement.
Don’t know why I necro’d this.
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Lightning
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Thergi
Mar 27 2018, 02:16 PM
As I’m assuming was expressed earlier in this thread, and every other one regarding d. Rugosus, the croc most likely only reached around ~7.6 meters for the biggest specimens if I recall, and the only bigger Deion species, d. Riograndensis, being only up to ~8 meters.
No species of crocodyloform really has much of a chance against an orca in a neutral water depth, bar large purussauus specimens and possibly Crocodylus bugtiensis, as the orca possesses every advantage except weaponry and lateral movement.
Don’t know why I necro’d this.
Sorry, I can't read through 9 pages, but when did a study downsizing d. Riograndensis that much come out? Last time I checked, they had a d. Riograndensis specimen which had a skull length of 147.5m and was estimated to have been 10.6m.
Edited by Lightning, Mar 27 2018, 06:13 PM.
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Caius
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An 8m body length comes from using femoral measurements to estimate it, a 10m body length stems from comparisons to modern Alligators.
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Lightning
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Caius
Mar 27 2018, 06:27 PM
An 8m body length comes from using femoral measurements to estimate it, a 10m body length stems from comparisons to modern Alligators.
If that's true, then I strongly back the orca at average and even maximum weights but I'd like to see the paper suggesting that deinosuchus riograndensis was only 8m by femoral measurements.
Thergi
Mar 27 2018, 02:16 PM
As I’m assuming was expressed earlier in this thread, and every other one regarding d. Rugosus, the croc most likely only reached around ~7.6 meters for the biggest specimens if I recall, and the only bigger Deion species, d. Riograndensis, being only up to ~8 meters.
No species of crocodyloform really has much of a chance against an orca in a neutral water depth, bar large purussauus specimens and possibly Crocodylus bugtiensis, as the orca possesses every advantage except weaponry and lateral movement.
Don’t know why I necro’d this.
According to this study (which I believe to be the most recent done on purusaurus, but I'm not sure) purusaurus was 12.5 metres and 8.4 tons:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0117944

If that's the case, then purusaurus is significantly larger than the average orca, which is 7 metres and 6 tons, and I'd back the croc strongly, even in the open sea.

Don't know much about Crocodylus bugtiensis though. How big was that?
Edited by Lightning, Mar 28 2018, 02:11 AM.
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dag8587
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Mar 28 2018, 01:58 AM
Caius
Mar 27 2018, 06:27 PM
An 8m body length comes from using femoral measurements to estimate it, a 10m body length stems from comparisons to modern Alligators.
If that's true, then I strongly back the orca at average and even maximum weights but I'd like to see the paper suggesting that deinosuchus riograndensis was only 8m by femoral measurements.
Thergi
Mar 27 2018, 02:16 PM
As I’m assuming was expressed earlier in this thread, and every other one regarding d. Rugosus, the croc most likely only reached around ~7.6 meters for the biggest specimens if I recall, and the only bigger Deion species, d. Riograndensis, being only up to ~8 meters.
No species of crocodyloform really has much of a chance against an orca in a neutral water depth, bar large purussauus specimens and possibly Crocodylus bugtiensis, as the orca possesses every advantage except weaponry and lateral movement.
Don’t know why I necro’d this.
According to this study (which I believe to be the most recent done on purusaurus, but I'm not sure) purusaurus was 12.5 metres and 8.4 tons:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0117944

If that's the case, then purusaurus is significantly larger than the average orca, which is 7 metres and 6 tons, and I'd back the croc strongly, even in the open sea.

Don't know much about Crocodylus bugtiensis though. How big was that?
Crocodylus bugtiensis size has been unclear to me. Usually the title of largest crocodylus is given to Crocodylus thorbjarnarsoni or Crocodylus anthropophagus. Both lived in Africa at about the same time, and both seem to have been in the 7-8 meter range. If Crocodylus bugtiensis really was 10-11 meters, as I've commonly seen cited, it would be easily the largest from the genus Crocodylus. I'll keep digging.

Edited by dag8587, Mar 28 2018, 02:18 AM.
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Lightning
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dag8587
Mar 28 2018, 02:17 AM
Hash Slinging Slasher
Mar 28 2018, 01:58 AM
Caius
Mar 27 2018, 06:27 PM
An 8m body length comes from using femoral measurements to estimate it, a 10m body length stems from comparisons to modern Alligators.
If that's true, then I strongly back the orca at average and even maximum weights but I'd like to see the paper suggesting that deinosuchus riograndensis was only 8m by femoral measurements.
Thergi
Mar 27 2018, 02:16 PM
As I’m assuming was expressed earlier in this thread, and every other one regarding d. Rugosus, the croc most likely only reached around ~7.6 meters for the biggest specimens if I recall, and the only bigger Deion species, d. Riograndensis, being only up to ~8 meters.
No species of crocodyloform really has much of a chance against an orca in a neutral water depth, bar large purussauus specimens and possibly Crocodylus bugtiensis, as the orca possesses every advantage except weaponry and lateral movement.
Don’t know why I necro’d this.
According to this study (which I believe to be the most recent done on purusaurus, but I'm not sure) purusaurus was 12.5 metres and 8.4 tons:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0117944

If that's the case, then purusaurus is significantly larger than the average orca, which is 7 metres and 6 tons, and I'd back the croc strongly, even in the open sea.

Don't know much about Crocodylus bugtiensis though. How big was that?
Crocodylus bugtiensis size has been unclear to me. Usually the title of largest crocodylus is given to Crocodylus thorbjarnarsoni or Crocodylus anthropophagus. Both lived in Africa at about the same time, and both seem to have been in the 7-8 meter range. If Crocodylus bugtiensis really was 10-11 meters, as I've commonly seen cited, it would be easily the largest from the genus Crocodylus. I'll keep digging.

Just did a quick search. Seems very little is known about Crocodylus bugtiensis.
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Jinfengopteryx
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Ausar
Feb 9 2014, 06:58 AM
Jinfengopteryx
Feb 9 2014, 05:25 AM
Dinopithecus
Feb 8 2014, 06:11 AM
Alright, let me rephrase that, I think the vast majority of the time. I mean, usually, unless the smaller's weapons are ridiculously hypertrophied, the bigger one is going to look visually bigger (thus having more volume), and thus the weapons get bigger.

Example, Utahraptor is a lot bigger than P. leo atrox and the former has a lot bigger weapons.
This is of course true, but in this fight, jaws are what you would call a weapon and the crocodile has a proportionally a lot larger skull, so I won't be so sure if the orca has the advantage there.

EDIT: Of course this doesn't mean it's weapons are better, this is only about weapon size.
Where've you been for 6 days?

Eh even if weapon size isn't the case here, the orca should probably still be somewhat stronger and more durable, thus giving it an edge.
I for some reason find it ironic to notice a "Where have you been all these days?" question after four years. lol lol
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Lightning
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The orca would indeed be more durable and stronger if the deinosuchus was really just 8m.

However, at equal weights, a crocodilian would have the durability and strength advantages over an orca. Reptiles are generally more durable than mammals, the croc got his armoured skin and tigress machli took 13 hours (I think) to kill a 200 kg mugger crocodile on land.

And this crocodile is strong enough to turn a large buffalo upside down with his death roll:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3Dy_8SGsI2r6g&ved=0ahUKEwjjy9uW1o3aAhXkIcAKHW_LAOkQuAIIIjAB&usg=AOvVaw0y0irRj2PfsyLaX1MdtDRl

The buffalo is completely dazed by the attack and doesn't even come out of the water. Don't know if it survived or not.
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Sam1
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The orca would be far bigger(almost 3 times the weight) at equal lengths.
Edited by Sam1, Mar 28 2018, 06:58 PM.
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