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| Dhole (Asiatic Wild Dog) v Staffordshire Bull Terrier | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 15 2012, 09:32 PM (9,052 Views) | |
| Taipan | May 15 2012, 09:32 PM Post #1 |
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Dhole (Asiatic Wild Dog) - Cuon alpinus The dhole (Cuon alpinus) is a species of canid native to South and Southeast Asia. It is the only extant member of the genus Cuon, which differs from Canis by the reduced number of molars and greater number of teats. The dholes are classed as endangered by the IUCN, due to ongoing habitat loss, depletion of its prey base, competition from other predators, persecution and possibly diseases from domestic and feral dogs. The dhole is a highly social animal, living in large clans which occasionally split up into small packs to hunt.[3] It primarily preys on medium-sized ungulates, which it hunts by tiring them out in long chases, and kills by disemboweling them. Unlike most social canids (but similar to African wild dogs), dholes let their pups eat first at a kill. Though fearful of humans, dhole packs are bold enough to attack large and dangerous animals such as wild boar, water buffalo, and even tigers. Prey animals in India include chital, sambar, muntjac, mouse deer, swamp deer, wild boar, gaur, water buffalo, banteng, cattle, nilgai, goats, Indian hares, Himalayan field rats and langurs. They are smaller than African wild dogs. Weight ranges from 10 to 25 kg (22 to 55 lb), with males averaging about 4.5 kg (9.9 lb) heavier. This dog is 88 to 113 cm (35 to 44 in) long from the snout to the base of the tail, with the tail averaging 45 cm (18 in) in length. Shoulder height is 42 to 55 cm (17 to 22 in). ![]() Staffordshire Bull Terrier The Staffordshire Bull Terrier (informally: Staffie, Stafford, Staffy or Staff) is a medium-sized, short-coated, old-time breed of dog. It is an English dog, where it is the 5th most popular breed, and related to the bull terrier. Having descended from dog-fighting ancestors, it is muscular and courageous. It is the subject of breed specific legislation in some jurisdictions. The Staffordshire Bull Terrier is a medium-sized, stocky, and very muscular dog with strong athletic ability, with a similar appearance to the American Staffordshire terrier and American pit bull terriers sharing the same ancestor. They have a broad head (male considerably more than female), defined occipital muscles, a relatively short foreface, dark round eyes and a wide mouth with a clean scissor-like bite (the top incisors slightly overlap the bottom incisors). The ears are small. The cheek muscles are very pronounced. Their lips show no looseness. From above, the head loosely resembles a triangle. The head tapers down to a strong well-muscled neck and shoulders placed on squarely spaced forelimbs. They are tucked up in their loins and the last 1-2 ribs of their ribcage are usually visible. Their tail resembles an old fashioned pump handle. Their hind quarters are well-muscled and are what give the Stafford drive when baiting. They are coloured brindle, black, red, fawn, blue, white, or any blending of these colors with white. White with any other colour broken up over the body is known as pied. Liver-colored, black and tan dogs can occur but are rare. The coat is smooth and clings tightly to the body giving the dog a streamlined appearance.The dogs stand 36 to 42 cm (14 to 17 in) at the withers and weigh 14 to 18 kg (31 to 40 lb) for males; bitches are 11 to 15.4 kg (24 to 34 lb). ![]() |
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| Red Dog | May 17 2012, 08:33 AM Post #16 |
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I posted some of this in bull breed skull thread. I don't have an apples and apples comparison as the staffie skull measurements I have are on a live animal while the dhole is on a clean skull. That being said, I think larger staffies (i.e. 60 lb. short-muzzled and stock pit bulls) would have wider skull based on body size alone. Largest modern dhole skull width I know of is 11.8 cm wide. However, most skulls come from southern and presumably smaller dholes. An extinct Iberian dhole had a skull width of 12.6 cm (see Table 2 on page 442: http://webext.ebd.csic.es:8080/documents/12813/16940/Ripoll_Cuon.pdf Here is a range of modern dhole skulls and how they compare to domestic dogs (dots). The dhole skull is wider than most dogs its size or smaller with the exception of a few. I'm guessing these were either bulldogs or perhaps pit bulls. ![]() Here are some measurements of 19th century and early 20th century dogs. One would presume these bulldogs, particularly "old type", were more functional. The largest dhole skulls appear larger than most dogs its size or smaller with exception of old-type bull dog (though not sure overall body mass of this breed at this time). ![]() ![]() Finally, here is a staffie's measurement from a live animal which is not directly comparable to above. ![]() |
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| Vita | May 17 2012, 07:03 PM Post #17 |
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Cave Canem
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The fact of the matter is, the dhole/dingo/AWD/Coyote would have to take hold and wrestle in order to defeat a pitbull type dog. These smaller canids are fair game. Besides some significant, yet not drastic differences in weaponry, the staff just has to do what it was bred for. |
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| Canidae | May 17 2012, 07:13 PM Post #18 |
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Omnivore
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It could do that, but not neccesarily.
Badger baiting? Spend 'hours' wrestling another dog and yet still failing to kill it? You can go on and on about 'they're so durable they can't kill one another' or 'they're so evenly matched they can't kill each other' but the fact of the matter is pitbull-type dogs are poor killers compared to better-equipped wild canids. And please don't refer to dog-fighting in your reply, if you believe that rigged, criminal junk is worthy evidence lord knows what else you believe in! |
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| Bull and Terrier | May 17 2012, 09:18 PM Post #19 |
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Herbivore
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Thanks for posting Reddhole Also I found out that it was Lyacon that posted the coyote and sbt skull in the HB vs SBT thread. Hopefully he will post it here for all to see. From this I think we can draw conclusions that a sbt or apbt would have a wider head and more impressive skull than similar sized wild canids, while most domestic dogs don't. These breeds also have longer canines than similar sized domestic dogs, but wild canids may have slightly longer canines. I'm not an expert on the area, but I think wider and more impressive skull + a much more powerful neck suggests more powerful jaws and bite most of the time. |
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| Bull and Terrier | May 17 2012, 09:34 PM Post #20 |
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Herbivore
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I agree that wild canids are better killers, no doubt about that. Still comparing to a sbt or apbt a similar sized wild canid would most likely have weaker jaws and bite (due to reasons mentioned in the last post), also their build and thinner neck would most likely make them less durable. I hope it is ok that I interfere a little in your discussion I do not condone dog fighting or badger baiting at all , but actually if the dogs are not evenly matched, the weakest dog tends to die or get severly injured relatively fast. I will not use this as an agrument, but just saying that these long matches don't make them poor killers. Still they are not as good at killing as a wild canid, even if they have better weapons. So I would say that the dhole definently can end the fight due to it's killing experince, I just don't see it happen more often than not between these two contenders, due to that I see the sbt having most advantages in a fighting scenario This is ofcourse my opinion based on what I know about these two animals. Edited by Bull and Terrier, May 17 2012, 09:37 PM.
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| Sicilianu | May 18 2012, 12:46 AM Post #21 |
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Omnivore
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Bull and terrier, I disagree. I have looked at the teeth of many breeds for veterinary purposes, and I find most fighting-types to have relatively smaller canines. |
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| Canidae | May 18 2012, 01:30 AM Post #22 |
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Omnivore
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Whilst a Jackal or Coyote may, Dholes have different skulls and can be larger on average then some Coyote populations. Reddhole's data shows Dhole skulls are wider bar a few, so the difference between them I.M.O wouldn't be great.
I think the exaggerated durability of such breeds can come from their gameness. Where most animals would give up, retreat or go into shock under similar conditions a Pitbull-type would continue due to gameness. Whilst both animals would die the Pitbull would just go down later. I haven't seen things to say they are hugely durable over hugely determined.
Sure thing! |
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| Red Dog | May 18 2012, 01:41 AM Post #23 |
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I don't know if we can make the conclusion SBTs have wider skulls at parity. Dholes average 22-44 lbs and therefore weigh about the size of small APBTs and show standard staffies. The dogs having relatively wider skulls in first graph with dots could very well be english bulldogs which do not have have functional skulls and are a bit heavier than dholes. Also, keep in mind dholes no doubt weigh less at the same skull length than domestic dogs. Therefore, the dogs with shorter and wider skulls may have wighed more than the dholes. I volunteer at an inner city animal shelter and handle lots of pit bulls and have fostered quite a few. The zygomatic width, measured with digital calipers, ranged from 9.5 cm to 13.0 cm. The dogs close to the range of a dhole (45-50 lbs.) had narrower skulls than the clean skull measurements of large dholes. My 47 lb. female APBT has a 9.5 cm zygomatic width while a 50 lb. staffie-pit mix had a zygomatic width of 10.2 cm (have to double check my records on that). The 13.0 cm zygomatic width came from a 75 lb. muscular APBT. Now, if we take larger staffies then its no contest. They would certainly have wider skulls. Unfortunately, we do not have an apples and apples comparison (i.e. clean SBT vs. clean dhole skulls or flesh covered SBT vs flesh covered dhole skull). Whatever the measurements are, one thing is clear APBTs and staffies have impressive skulls. The fact that their skulls are nearly as wide as much larger dogs (and probably thicker and heavier at same skull size) is certainly one reason why they can go toe to toe with much larger dogs. Edited by Red Dog, May 18 2012, 01:46 AM.
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| ImperialDino | May 18 2012, 04:17 AM Post #24 |
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Omnivore
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The STAFFY wins. African Wild Dogs are superior to dholes (for those of you comparing the 2 animals) |
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| Vita | May 18 2012, 03:19 PM Post #25 |
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Cave Canem
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Badger baiting is a different thing though. Besides, badgers are a lot more durable and a challenge for many similar sized carnivore. Anyway. Matches that go on for hours aren't as common as some people like to make it to be. Two dogs that manage to go on for hours on end are said to be "soft mouthed dogs." Often it's most bouts seldom go over an hour. Dogs with lots of wind, gameness but no mouth due to a more narrow and less robust skull are soft mouthed, fyi. Some dogs finish their opponent in a manner of minutes. It depends on a number of factors. (Ability, mouth just to name a few.) Without "box rules" the most dogs would pretty much fight until one or both are killed or from their injuries. I don't think "they're so durable, can't kill each other, etc" is as important as other arguments. For one thing, two evenly matched opponents often struggle longer and harder than if one were clearly superior than the other. Pitbulls are more specialized than other similar sized canids for combat. They're dogs nonetheless and generally don't have the know how to "kill" animals as quickly as possible. There are exceptions and they really take the "grasp, hold and fight" prey aspect of wild canids to the extreme. They brawl. Seize what they can and thrash. Typically they focus their attacks on the head/neck like most canids. Now it's possible that a dhole could take hold of the staff in an advantageous position, shut down its counter attack and finish if off. The thing is it's not likely it'll be able to do so to staff. They'll wrestle, exchange holds. The durability argument could be used when referring to the loose skin surrounding the neck staff. That's pretty much it regarding that. A good hold, and the staff could have the advantage. |
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| Bull and Terrier | May 19 2012, 12:32 AM Post #26 |
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Herbivore
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I have never experienced the same. All sbts I have dealt with ( a lot ) have canines as large as almost twice as large dogs. Still it may vary a lot, but atleast the sbt is known for huge teeth for it's size. I do not question your statement, but atleast from what I have heard that most bull and terrier breeds have large teeth for their size, but then again have only meet a few apbt's since they are illegal in my country. But I guess there would be a diffrence between lines breed for function and lines breed for looks. My sbt for example have 2,4cm long canines when I measure. |
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| Bull and Terrier | May 19 2012, 12:40 AM Post #27 |
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Herbivore
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I agree, most dog with the same size skull weighs more than their wild counterpart. I belive this is because they are breed for a specific task, and can often carry more muscles than their wild counterparts, since they are feed every day. Also when breed for a function, their build will be very diffrent. Most wild canines are tall compared to a same weigth dog breed, and therefore have a much leaner build, due to adapting to survive in the wild. One thing I have noticed are that most sbt's have more bull in them than most apbt and often have a wider head at parity. Don't know if this is the norm, just sharing my experience. Canidae: I'm not so good at quoting so I will adress your post here. I understand that there is a diffrence between a coyote and a dhole, and that the diffrence between a sbt and a dhole may not be significant. But the skull diffrence between a sbt and a coyote that Lyacon posted, was very significant in my opinion. He posted the pictures at the "Molosser and bull breeds vs wild predators" thread. I agree, this makes them seem more durable than they are. But I also belive that thick and loose skinn, specially at the neck, thick muscular neck and powerful and long drawn ribs also plays a part in protecting vital areas. Not saying they are invinsible or hugely durable, but I think this make them more durable and can take more damage (due to their gameness but also the reasons I have metioned) than most similarly sized predators, this also because their main task was to fight other animals and everything about them are specialized for this. Still a good powerful bite from a strong jaw can end any animal that size fast. Edited by Bull and Terrier, May 19 2012, 12:59 AM.
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| Red Dog | May 19 2012, 01:59 AM Post #28 |
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Actually, domestication itself results in smaller skulls and teeth for middle to large sized dogs. The pattern has been replicated in the silver fox domestication experiment and many other domestic animals. Apparently, selection for tameness has a number of different effects and skull size is one of them. That being said, smaller domestic dogs do have wider skulls than smaller wild canids like foxes, jackals and western coyotes. Most small domestic dogs are essentially neotonic wolves (i.e. adult dogs with wolf puppy like proportions). This is not necessarily a bad thing as puppy's actually have some fighting adaptions to compete with other puppies for suckling. Things like relatively wider skulls, stockier builds, etc. Coyotes do appear to have longer canines than similar sized dogs, but its pretty close between foxes/jackals and small domestic dogs. The interesting comparison is with bush dogs, dholes, AWDs and similar size domestic dogs. These dogs are essentially dwarf wolves and have proportionately large skulls and teeth compared to larger breeds (shown by shallow slope of dog or "intraspecific" line in graph above showing relative skull width of domestic dogs and wild canids). On the other hand, these wild canids have large skulls and teeth for their body size. Overall, the dogs are much closer to these wild canids craniodentally speaking than gray wolves which is due to these domestic dogs being more impressive for their size than larger breeds (bush dogs, dholes, and AWDs are similar to gray wolves in terms of bite force for body size or "BFQ" so difference lies with domestic dogs). Would tend to agree with you on SBTs vs APBTs, but do think the width difference may appear larger than it is due to SBTs having shorter skulls. Edited by Red Dog, May 19 2012, 02:03 AM.
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| Lycaon | May 19 2012, 04:07 AM Post #29 |
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Omnivore
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How have terriers fared in canine length? I know you may not experienced working terriers but i'm sure average pet terriers should have some lengthy canines compared similar sized domestic dogs. |
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| Sicilianu | May 19 2012, 06:14 AM Post #30 |
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Omnivore
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I have not been around enough pure terriers to comment unfortunately. |
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