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rat attacks group of cats
Topic Started: Jun 9 2012, 06:23 PM (8,264 Views)
Bandog
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Everything else is just a dog.
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This is a tedious debate and has run its course. No ones gonna change their views.
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Apex
Omnivore
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wolf v wolf is different to lionv lion
wolves live in groups with many males and therefore ar less aggressive to other males just like humans
but lions live as brothers or alone in a pride so are more agressive
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Sicilianu
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Omnivore
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I am a little confused on why evidence of wild canines engaging in one-on-one fights is even needed. Who really cares whether a person has documented such a fight in such social animals. We are talking "cat" vs "dog," not "dog" vs "dog." It seems like a red herring to me.

(As an aside, here is a good explanation of a red herring for those who have not heard of this fallacy:
Description of Red Herring

A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

Topic A is under discussion.
Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
Topic A is abandoned.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim. Source: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html)


Having said that, I will remind people of my view so people do not think I am a canid fan (I like both families just fine) just because of the above comment. I think canids triumph at smaller weights and cats at larger weights, with confusion around 40-50 lbs. I have read these debates before, and this seems to be what the evidence supports.
Edited by Sicilianu, Jun 11 2012, 06:07 AM.
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k9boy
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Apex Predator
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I dont get what the argument is about, canids can kill eachother, so can cats.
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Ursus arctos
Autotrophic Organism

apexpredator7
Jun 11 2012, 06:00 AM
but lions live as brothers or alone in a pride so are more agressive
Coalitions of 2 or 3 males regularly contain unrelated males.
Coalitions of 4+ males however are brothers-only.
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FelinePowah
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Pussy Lover
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Ursus arctos
Jun 11 2012, 06:27 AM
apexpredator7
Jun 11 2012, 06:00 AM
but lions live as brothers or alone in a pride so are more agressive
Coalitions of 2 or 3 males regularly contain unrelated males.
Coalitions of 4+ males however are brothers-only.

Im sure there are exceptions to that rule.
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Cat
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Omnivore
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FelinePowah
Jun 11 2012, 05:31 AM
k9boy
Jun 10 2012, 06:09 PM
What kind of dog was it that killed the bobcat?

It was called a patterbringahumanalong terrier lol
If it was the episode I saw on a canine site, it was a jagdterrier. Since the same dog fought and presumably killed a raccoon at a few minutes interval, it's obvious that it was a set up encounter, an artificial situation probably involving captive or wounded, anyway substandard 'victims', so that the canine hero could shine in all its glory (and the owners of the kennel on the site could sell more puppies...) rolleyes . There are also some disturbing pics on the same site about these 'glorious' feats, which of course I cannot show here.
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Ursus arctos
Autotrophic Organism

FelinePowah
Jun 11 2012, 07:23 AM
Ursus arctos
Jun 11 2012, 06:27 AM
apexpredator7
Jun 11 2012, 06:00 AM
but lions live as brothers or alone in a pride so are more agressive
Coalitions of 2 or 3 males regularly contain unrelated males.
Coalitions of 4+ males however are brothers-only.

Im sure there are exceptions to that rule.
Perhaps.
However, because reproductive success within coalitions is extremely biased with only one or two males of the coalition fathering the vast majority of cubs it is no longer advantageous for unrelated coalition mates to join for selfish reasons; either:
a) the unrelated male is strong enough to dominate reproduction, in which case the group of brothers would be best off without him.
b) the unrelated male isn't, in which case chances are he isn't going to get to reproduce at all despite controlling a pride of females.

This is despite the fact that per capita reproductive success increases with increasing coalition size. This just means that each extra coalition member means the dominant males of the coalition get to father more and more additional cubs.


The case is different when the large group of lions are all brothers however-helping family members reproduce is worthwhile.


I'm sure lions aren't aware of any of these concepts, but because their are selective pressures to maintain this rule it is very likely to generally hold true.


I'd have to look at those articles again though to see if Packer did find exceptions or not.
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ImperialDino
Omnivore
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FelinePowah
Jun 10 2012, 05:51 AM
ak47
Jun 10 2012, 03:20 AM
@feline"powah"

EDIT:
Video "dog kills cat" falls under animal cruelty IMO. Link removed.
-Ursus

Its funny how the dogs are always sooo much bigger then the cats that they beat up/kill

Lets see a dog kill a cat of equal size and then you can boast.......i think ill be waiting a long time.
When somebody post that on the internet, it get's taken down.
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Taipan
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Administrator

Lycaon
Jun 11 2012, 04:25 AM
Done. At least you noted you want to leave out domestic canines killing each other one on one when you were ranting.
That's all I could care about.
Yeah, we know organised animal cruelty is all you care about.

Veli
Jun 11 2012, 05:36 AM
i dont see where i used any excuses I've just pointed out the obviuos, if you dont have any counter-arguments then let it be. canines are social animals of course there will be less mortalities in one v one conflicts, wolves forage alone more often than other wild canids probably thats why there are accounts of deadly one v one fights

ok then post an account of a deadly fight between two lionesses
There's no counterargumenents needed, and there is no need for you to continue with excuses and diversions. You simply need to post accounts of any wild canine species having a fatal fight 1 on 1. There's over 30 species of wild canines, surely wolves aren't the only ones capable.

Sicilianu
Jun 11 2012, 06:05 AM
I am a little confused on why evidence of wild canines engaging in one-on-one fights is even needed. Who really cares whether a person has documented such a fight in such social animals. We are talking "cat" vs "dog," not "dog" vs "dog." It seems like a red herring to me.


What you are confused about is the debate topic, hence you should have avoided it and saved your time trying to look smart by googling fallacies.

Sicilianu
 
Topic A is under discussion.
Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
Topic A is abandoned.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim. Source: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html)


Topic A is the comparative engagement of canines and felines in 1 on 1 fights and the degree/frequency that they are lethal that arose from the following comment:

ak47
Jun 9 2012, 06:23 PM
cats will only attack by ambush and will never fight head on.


If you agree with ak47 - back it up, if you dont, argue against it, but dont waste your time googling fallacies that don't apply cause you are confused about the topic.
Edited by Taipan, Jun 11 2012, 08:24 PM.
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ak47
Unicellular Organism
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FelinePowah
Jun 11 2012, 05:31 AM
k9boy
Jun 10 2012, 06:09 PM
What kind of dog was it that killed the bobcat?

It was called a patterbringahumanalong terrier lol
no your wrong there lol
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Canidae
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Omnivore
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Taipan
Jun 11 2012, 07:38 PM
There's over 30 species of wild canines, surely wolves aren't the only ones capable.
You're right, wolves aren't the only ones capable, but are the most heavily studied and have the highest interspecific aggression and mortality rates from it.

If anyone would like to get The Evolution and Dynamics of Intraspecific Predation by G.A. Polis, it has Golden Jackals, Dingoes, Red Foxes and Coyotes in it, along with wolves.
Coyote intraspecific killing is rare, however, due to - guess what - their social structure!
http://www.rockies.ca/coyotes/files/social%20behavior%20and%20ecology%20of%20coyotes%20-%20beckoff.pdf : Good references material; I don't see a recent disperser attacking an adult and / or mated pair or 'pack'.
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Sicilianu
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Omnivore
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I guess I misunderstood what you were trying to argue for Taipan.
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Taipan
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Administrator

Canidae
Jun 12 2012, 01:46 AM
Taipan
Jun 11 2012, 07:38 PM
There's over 30 species of wild canines, surely wolves aren't the only ones capable.
You're right, wolves aren't the only ones capable, but are the most heavily studied and have the highest interspecific aggression and mortality rates from it.
And given the above - very very few instances of 1 on 1 mortality from fighting. So if anyone else wants to start posting crap about cats "never fighting head on" or felinae lacking the weaponary to kill opponents in 1 on 1 fights, they may want to consider than 1 on 1 fatal fights are far more frequent in the feline world than the canine world - even in populations of the rarest feline species:

Posted Image



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k9boy
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Apex Predator
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Cat
Jun 11 2012, 08:20 AM
FelinePowah
Jun 11 2012, 05:31 AM
k9boy
Jun 10 2012, 06:09 PM
What kind of dog was it that killed the bobcat?

It was called a patterbringahumanalong terrier lol
If it was the episode I saw on a canine site, it was a jagdterrier. Since the same dog fought and presumably killed a raccoon at a few minutes interval, it's obvious that it was a set up encounter, an artificial situation probably involving captive or wounded, anyway substandard 'victims', so that the canine hero could shine in all its glory (and the owners of the kennel on the site could sell more puppies...) rolleyes . There are also some disturbing pics on the same site about these 'glorious' feats, which of course I cannot show here.
I sent a PM asking him for the patterdale killing the bobcat because I didnt believe it, and he didn't reply.
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