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rat attacks group of cats
Topic Started: Jun 9 2012, 06:23 PM (8,262 Views)
Canidae
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Omnivore
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Taipan
 
If you cant kill your own, you are going to struggle even more against a superior fighter.

You think it's a question of ability!?
So a Dhole can kill a Chital stag, but not another Dhole?

Taipan
 
Like you did when the Leopard fought off 5 attacking hyenas.

So by your logic, a Leopard would also win against a Lioness?
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Lycaon
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k9boy
Jun 13 2012, 07:23 PM
Terriers are on average bigger then cats.
Yes they are, but regardless there are many instances where the weights overlap.
The European wildcat weights around 14 pounds and has been hunted by similar sized terriers. Same can be said with the jack russells and patterdales used to hunt feral cats, jack russells/parson russells are by no means a large dog.
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Ophiophagy
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lol no rat dog on earth would take on a adult european wildcat by itself with no human to help it that was the same size as it


it would be sliced up in seconds,


with jack russel and feral cat it can go either way a jack russel can kill a feral cat sometimes if the cat is a wimp but if it met the wrong cat it would get its ass beaten, These 2 dont come into conflict a feral cat is too fast it will run up a tree again the dog will need human help a feral cat wont sit on the ground and fight it will go up a tree or dart away and vanish again what loser would hunt a feral cat with a jack russel it makes no sense?? these cats can easily escape a dog, the can get away from big dogs much faster than jack russels a human would have to come in and kill the feral.


WIthout a human a scotish wildcat will kill a lone jack russel as prey
Edited by Ophiophagy, Jun 14 2012, 03:46 AM.
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k9boy
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@lycaon When terriers hunt wildcats I assume there are more then one right? But even if there is only one dog it could pull it off. It depends on the size of the cat, and also its mental state. If it wants to just get away and not fight it will probably lose. If it wanted to stay and fight and was a decent size it could give the terrier a hell of a fight. I also think a raccoon is not as strong as a cat at parity, but raccoons are around 23-30lbs.
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Lycaon
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k9boy
Jun 14 2012, 07:09 AM
@lycaon When terriers hunt wildcats I assume there are more then one right? But even if there is only one dog it could pull it off. It depends on the size of the cat, and also its mental state. If it wants to just get away and not fight it will probably lose. If it wanted to stay and fight and was a decent size it could give the terrier a hell of a fight. I also think a raccoon is not as strong as a cat at parity, but raccoons are around 23-30lbs.
There can be a trio of dogs or one solo, it depends. But I was referring to one on one when making my statements.
Of course the cat is going to try to get away, but many times cats make foolish decisions that can easily make them accessible to a terrier. Sometimes a cat can be perfectly safe in a tree then suddenly jump down and hide under rubble, logs, brushes and even vehicles; in that position the dog can easily gain access to the feline.
Perhaps the cats believe they will be safe as other predators would not want to go in a cramped area to face a barrage of claws, but a good terrier wouldn't mind.

Depends on what you man by strong, a raccoon is going to last longer in a fight with a terrier than any similar sized cat imo. What it lacks is the damage output that the cat has to its' advantage. If a dog can take on a raccoon it can take on a wild cat.
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Lycaon
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poison
Jun 14 2012, 03:39 AM
lol no rat dog on earth would take on a adult european wildcat by itself with no human to help it that was the same size as it


it would be sliced up in seconds,


with jack russel and feral cat it can go either way a jack russel can kill a feral cat sometimes if the cat is a wimp but if it met the wrong cat it would get its ass beaten, These 2 dont come into conflict a feral cat is too fast it will run up a tree again the dog will need human help a feral cat wont sit on the ground and fight it will go up a tree or dart away and vanish again what loser would hunt a feral cat with a jack russel it makes no sense?? these cats can easily escape a dog, the can get away from big dogs much faster than jack russels a human would have to come in and kill the feral.


WIthout a human a scotish wildcat will kill a lone jack russel as prey
I would beg to differ, jack russels and various terriers have been used to hunt wildcats, even dachshunds on occasion.
Dogs that encounter wildcats do not look torn up at all unless the cat bit/scratched their muzzles or delicate ears.

We all have seen cat fights and the most serious ones end up with a cat with some red on its' fur and some bites. Same happens with a dog. I don't see why people think the clawing will slice the dog apart, when hardly anything happens during these cat intraspecies fights.

And no humans do not have to kill a feral cat when the dog is around, and the terriers had better success rates except for lurcher/sighthound dogs in open areas. In a more urban area where there is trash, loose piles of wood, vehicles, basements, sheds etc, the cat will readily hid in these areas. Big dogs will not be able to reach these areas and would have to rely on their owners to clear the path for them. This is human involvement unlike that of the terrier, which can easily maneuver into the areas the cat is hidden in.

Against a jack russell the cat may very well end up the dead, if it decides not to run away.
Though a scottish wild cat can win some fights I admit, especially if the dog was the rat hunter type.
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Taipan
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Canidae
Jun 13 2012, 09:47 PM
Taipan
 
If you cant kill your own, you are going to struggle even more against a superior fighter.

You think it's a question of ability!?
So a Dhole can kill a Chital stag, but not another Dhole?

We are talking about fighting ability not predation.

Canidae
 
Taipan
 
Like you did when the Leopard fought off 5 attacking hyenas.

So by your logic, a Leopard would also win against a Lioness?


No. Adult Leopards have been killed by larger cats like tigresses and lionesses, however a hyena has not killed an adult leopard and typically get their asses kicked in serious confrontations with Leopards.
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Canidae
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Taipan
 
We are talking about fighting ability not predation.

But the fact of the matter is a lone Dhole cn kill a larger, more durable animal. So it could kill another Dhole.

Taipan
 
however a hyena has not killed an adult leopard and typically get their asses kicked in serious confrontations with Leopards.

No, you subjectively decide any encounter a Leopard wins is 'serious' and any a hyena wins is just a minor tiff. The most major Leopard 'arse-kicking' comes from subjective western tourists, not really suprising.

Besides, the actions of one / group of hyenas are not generalisable to the species.
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k9boy
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A cat can still do nasty damage to dogs, even large hunting ones. These are 2 seperate accounts from the hunting forum.

1. 'Many years ago ,I had a very hard dog called Max a grey/collie x beddie /grey, he took off in some woodland, pulled down a very big feral cat ,stumpy little tail ,covered in burrs .Max did foxes quick but he had his work cut out with this moggie it clamped itself to his head and he couldn't get to grips with it, teeth wise.he finally got it down and did the job I was sure his eyes were gone ,but thankfully all the wounds were on his head and shoulders.Max had deep punctures all over his scalp and claw rips on his shoulders,if I could have stopped it, I would have. Accidents will happen but If a feral cat needs gone I would use the gun ,I think too much of my dogs eyesight.
Lurchers killing pet cats is the way to grief, both for the cat owner,and the dog owner,I dont think we need any more aggro than we allready get.Thats my take on it.'

2. 'Was out lamping for foxs about year half ago give or take.Hanging out the window calling see any foxs about.Seen pair eyes about 3 4 fields in parked the van in good spot got good size field and the wind blowing in are faces just in behind a falling down tree.Got everyone in there place and started calling 2 3 mins pasted nothing so l stood up have better look called again and there it was a fox flying in well so we thought.
This thing was not stopping by the way had a 1\2 bull half grey whith us 5 year old a dog that knew what he was doing and a 12 month old pup 1\4 english bull 3\4 grey learning the ropes.The so called fox was in the field we where in not stopping came in with in 10 metres and big dog was let go then the pup on goes the white light and it was no fox but one off the biggest cats l have every seen and it was not running any where back up and straight into the bull cross and what a fight.Seen this dog kill fox and other stuff with ease and never heard a word out off him but my god was he making nosie now just thank god the pup had the back end off it.After about 4 5 mins was over me few mate looked at each other tell say what the f**k was that.Got up close this cat was big about height off a good size whippet had half a tail and wee feathered ears and claws and teeth like knifes got the dog back to the van and it had a slice form back off head tell tip off nose and my god was it deep.That dog was not out again for about month and halfbut learn me lesson make sure the white light is on before yea slip.'
Edited by k9boy, Jun 15 2012, 07:45 PM.
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Taipan
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Canidae
Jun 15 2012, 01:22 AM
Taipan
 
We are talking about fighting ability not predation.

But the fact of the matter is a lone Dhole cn kill a larger, more durable animal. So it could kill another Dhole.

Well they dont! And also as stated dont confuse fighting with predation.

Canidae
 
Taipan
 
however a hyena has not killed an adult leopard and typically get their asses kicked in serious confrontations with Leopards.

No, you subjectively decide any encounter a Leopard wins is 'serious' and any a hyena wins is just a minor tiff. The most major Leopard 'arse-kicking' comes from subjective western tourists, not really suprising..


Excuses again Canidae rolleyes
Edited by Taipan, Jun 15 2012, 11:21 PM.
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Canidae
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Taipan
 
Well they dont! And also as stated dont confuse fighting with predation.

Yeah, so it's a question of intraspecific aggression over ability!

Taipan
 
Excuses again Canidae rolleyes

Don't B.S.
Compare your tourist's account spelled by a five-year old with something in a respectable book and there's a huge difference.
I haven't seen a matraich ever bested by a Leopard, but enough cats treed by adult females!
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Red Dog


I never understood this extreme emphasis on frequency of one on one intraspecific fights.

Clearly single canids have the ability to kill similar sized canids fairly quickly. Domestic dogs have done it as have wolves and captive coyotes.

The adult female wild dog nearly killing another adult female wild dog is another example. Yes, the female wild dog was not killed, but she easily could have been if she had not submitted. This example is listed below:

Quote:
 
Below is a description of a one on one fight between two adult female AWDs from the same pack.

Notice how both AWDs went right for the throat and attempted to secure a firm "death grip" on the other. Also, both dogs put their paws on the other AWD's shoulders and used forelimbs for leverage in the fight. Both dogs drew blood from bite holds to the neck and damaged the other dog's ears. The winning AWD, "Juno", severely injured the other with a throat hold drawing significant amounts of blood causing the losing dog, "Black Angel", to collapse causing the authors to believe Black Angel died. Juno only stopped the attack when Black Angel submitted. IMHO Juno would have killed Black Angel if Black Angel did not submit.

The fighting style is virtually identical to fighting dogs and really shows fighting dogs do not fight in a fundamentally different way than wild canids. The difference is that APBTs more reliably fight as opposed to posture and have evolved certain fighting specializations due to selective breeding.

Source: Jane Goodall and Hugo Van Lawick, "Innocent Killers"

Posted Image


Posted Image


Below is a picture of two adult AWDs "play fighting" which the author describes as being similar to the actual fight. The fact the AWDs frequently play fight would indicate IMHO that one on one fighting is, or at least the capability, is quite important to AWDs.

Posted Image

Below is another attack occurring before the fight above. Notice the severity of the attack with neck biting and lots of blood being drawn.


Posted Image


Here is a study which showed several captive coyotes killing members of same sex in fights (presumably similar in size):

Quote:
 
The following details some fighting behaviors between eastern coyotes in captivity. The reference is:

Silver and Silver, "Growth and Behavior of the Coyote-like Canid of Northern New England and Observations on Canid Hybrids", 1969, The Wildlife Society, Wildlife Monographs, 17 : pages 24-25

As you can see, quite a bit of the fighting was one on one and serious. Also, the fighting was confined to within each sex; with female fights being more frequent and violent.

Posted Image

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As others have mentioned, fewer one on one wild canid intraspecific killing may be due to many species living in groups (attacks not witnessed and determination of single animal or group doing killing not determined), social behavior differences (less intraspecific fighting as in foxes), which are unrelated to killing ability.

Another thing to note is most wild cat kills I've seen almost always involve a signficant size advantage, a male killing a female, a prime male killing an old or subadult male, etc. For example, in this puma intraspecific predation study note the following:

19 pumas killed intraspecific predation
Of 19, 16 males - 14 were less than 3 or over 8 years old (no information on other two, but possibly could have had some sort of disadvantage like illness, injury, etc.)
Of 19, 3 were females.

So, at least 17 of 19 or around 90% were likely smaller/weaker than male cougar doing the killing.

Among radiocollared panthers, intraspecific aggression was the primary cause of mortality for 19
(41%) dead cats. Of these cats, 16 (84%) were males and 14 (88%) were either less than 3 or
more than 8-yr-old. These animals were probably fighting to establish or retain territory.
On the other hand, wolves often target other packs alphas which are generally strong animals and therefore may involve more risk in killing a weaker member of the population.


http://www.jwildlifedis.org/content/38/1/107.full.pdf
That being said, even red foxes (with relatively weak bites by wild canid standards) can kill the not that much smaller arctic fox quickly. For exmaple, the following case showed a red fox killing an arctic fox within 10 seconds. Author notes red foxes are 41%-88% larger in this area which is not that different that most cougar fights (I think typical weight advantage was somewhere around 30%),

Quote:
 
Below is an account constant with the above study where a red fox kills an arctic fox. The red fox kills the arctic fox within 10 seconds of engaging it. IMHO, this shows that canids can kill other animals fairly quickly considering that the red fox has a weak bite relative to other canids. The red fox seems to make up for this by having decently long canines and a good killing technique.

http://pubs.aina.ucalgary.ca/arctic/Arctic59-4-361.pdf

In November 2004, a red fox was observed chasing an
arctic fox under parked trucks and a nearby building
constructed on stilts. As the chase proceeded, the red fox
continued to gain on the arctic fox until contact was made,
at which point video shots were taken to document the
encounter. Six video clips totaling 2 minutes 36 seconds
were taken of the interaction.

The first video clip shows the two animals fighting. The
red fox was maintaining a superior position with respect to
the arctic fox, while trying to roll the arctic fox over in
repeated attempts to bite its neck. The arctic fox, struggling
underneath the red fox, was kicking and biting at it
(Fig. 1). At the 10-second mark of the video, the red fox
succeeded in biting the neck of the arctic fox and then
shook its head quickly from side to side, instantly killing
or paralyzing the arctic fox. The red fox proceeded to carry
the limp carcass across a parking lot and onto an adjacent
patch of undisturbed snow (Fig. 2). The last three video
clips show the red fox biting at the back of the arctic fox
just behind the shoulders, in what seemed to be attempts to
break open the skin (Fig. 3).


Posted Image

FIG. 1. Red and arctic fox fighting, with red fox maintaining a superior position.

Posted Image

FIG. 2. The red fox carrying the carcass of the arctic fox away from the kill site. Prudhoe Bay oilfield, Alaska, November 2004.

Posted Image

FIG. 3. The red fox biting and chewing at the back of the arctic fox, just posterior to the shoulders, after carrying the carcass off from the kill site.

Apparently this is not that uncommon:

We have had many conversations with oilfield personnel
during which they reported on similar encounters
between red and arctic foxes. Most encounters reported
involve red foxes chasing arctic foxes, but some report
arctic foxes being killed and consumed.


Interspecific killing is also thought to be common
among mammalian carnivores in general (Palomares
and Caro, 1999), with the frequency of occurrence increasing
when participants’ body-size differences are intermediate
(41.4 – 88.3% body size difference, Donadio and
Buskirk, 2006). Differences in body size between red and
arctic foxes in northern Alaska fall within this intermediate
range (N.J. Pamperin and E.H. Follmann, unpubl.
data), suggesting that interspecific killing between the two
species could be common.


Clearly single canids have the ability to killing similar sized canids. Now, perhaps one can argue male felids fight their own species more one on one and therefore have more fighting experience. However, I personally do not think that necessarily extends to fighting another species.

More importantly, if intraspecific fighting is some sort of case closed AVA argument, then consider the following:

1) Female cats of some species should be placed below almost all other carnivores since they rarely fight members of their own species (when they do they tend to get killed by males)

2) Most carnivore species, many of which are clearly formidable, have infrequent intraspecific mortalities

3) Tiger should be favored over lion since it fights one on one to the death more frequently

Following is from Craig Packer's website on lions:

Coalitions of male lions usually fight as a group against territorial rivals, so a tiger may have an advantage in a one-on-one encounter, since this is the typical mode of combat for a tiger. However, a lion coalition of 2–3 males would have a clear advantage over a lone tiger. A group of 2–4 female lions would have a similar advantage over a lone tigress

http://www.cbs.umn.edu/lionresearch/about/faq.shtml
Edited by Red Dog, Jun 16 2012, 04:39 AM.
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Vita
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^ Informative post, reddhole.
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ImperialDino
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NO domestic cat, scottish wildcat or african wildcat could kill an artic fox within seconds, maybe a RAT, SQUIRREL OR MOUSE but not an artic fox.
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Taipan
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Canidae
Jun 16 2012, 02:26 AM
Taipan
 
Well they dont! And also as stated dont confuse fighting with predation.

Yeah, so it's a question of intraspecific aggression over ability!
No its a question of your ignorance and fanboy sensitivities.

From Ocelot v Dhole

Canidae
Mar 29 2012, 01:16 AM
Still, I doubt one could kill a Dhole or similar sized carnivoran from prey taken and lack of interaction with other animals than being killed by larger cats. (Jaguar) Back the Dhole here.


Ocelots do kill each other in 1 on 1 fights, yet you never doubted the Dholes ability to kill a similar sized carnivoran even though no evidence exists of them doing so, even with their own kind.

Re your fanboy sensitivities, the following was described by you as "bashing canines"

Taipan
Jun 10 2012, 02:51 PM
ak47
Jun 9 2012, 06:23 PM
cats will only attack by ambush and will never fight head on.
Thats bullshit. Cats have far more serious 1 on 1 fights than dogs leading to fatalities. Apart from a few instances with wolves, the canine crew can't find any 1 on 1 fatal fights for canines. This is not the case for cats with detailed cases of felines from lynx & ocelot through to lions and tigers killining each others in fights exists.
Canines simply are inferior fighters with inferior weaponary.


Grow up. I gave you ample opportunity to establish the above as incorrect, and you failed. Yet in your typical style you posted a string of excuses failing to accept the vailidity of the above.

Had you any degree of unbiased credibility as a poster you would have been more concerned with:

ak47
Jun 9 2012, 06:23 PM
cats will only attack by ambush and will never fight head on.


canidae
 

Taipan
 
Excuses again Canidae rolleyes

Don't B.S.
Compare your tourist's account spelled by a five-year old with something in a respectable book and there's a huge difference.
I haven't seen a matraich ever bested by a Leopard, but enough cats treed by adult females!


You hang on to that excuse then Canidae, because ignoring accounts you certainly cant mount a sensible intelligent case for a Hyena defeating a Leopard.


Reddhole
Jun 16 2012, 04:16 AM
I never understood this extreme emphasis on frequency of one on one intraspecific fights.

Well it certainly goes a long way to countering the ignorant comments regarding felines and their fighting habits, fighting ability and weaponary made by the likes of Gun, ak47, Canidae and Lycaon. Its more a case of correcting their ignorance rather than "bashing canines" or diminishing canine behaviours, as you have attempted to do with felines above. Of course if you can actually find some 1 on 1 fighting fatalities apart from those few involving wolves it would be usefiul for this forum.
Edited by Taipan, Jun 16 2012, 03:50 PM.
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