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Dire Wolf v Spotted Hyena
Topic Started: Jun 17 2012, 05:58 PM (37,527 Views)
Taipan
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Dire Wolf - Canis dirus
The Dire wolf (Canis dirus) is an extinct carnivorous mammal of the genus Canis, and was most common in North America and South America from the Irvingtonian stage to the Rancholabrean stage of the Pleistocene epoch living 1.80 Ma – 10,000 years ago, existing for approximately 1.79 million years. lthough it was closely related to the Gray Wolf and other sister species, Canis dirus was not the direct ancestor of any species known today. Unlike the Gray Wolf, which is of Eurasian origin, the Dire Wolf evolved on the North American continent, along with the Coyote. The Dire Wolf co-existed with the Gray Wolf in North America for about 100,000 years. The dire wolf was about the same size as the largest modern gray wolves (Canis lupus), which are the Yukon wolf and the northwestern wolf. C. d. guildayi weighed on average 60 kilograms (132 lb) and C. d. dirus was on average 68 kg (150 lb). Despite superficial similarities to the Gray Wolf, there were significant differences between the two species. The legs of the Dire Wolf were proportionally shorter and sturdier than those of the Gray Wolf, and its brain case was smaller than that of a similarly sized gray wolf. The Dire Wolf's teeth were similar to the Gray Wolf's, only slightly larger, pointing to a hypercarnivorous to mesocarnivorous activity. Paleontologist R.M. Nowak states the dietary characteristics are primarily carnivorous as well as partially omnivorous.

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Spotted Hyena - Crocuta crocuta
The spotted hyena (Crocuta crocuta), also known as the laughing hyena or tiger wolf, is a species of hyena native to Sub-Saharan Africa. It is listed as Least Concern by the IUCN on account of its widespread range and large numbers estimated at 10,000 individuals. The spotted hyena is the largest extant member of the Hyaenidae.[43] Adults measure 95.0—165.8 cm in body length, and have a shoulder height of 70.0-91.5 cm. Adult male spotted hyenas in the Serengeti weigh 40.5—55.0 kg (89—121 lb), while females weigh 44.5—63.9 kg (98—141 lb). Spotted hyenas in Zambia tend to be heavier, with males weighing on average 67.6 kg (149 lb), and females 69.2 kg (153 lb). Exceptionally large weights of 81.7 kg (180 lb) and 86 kg (190 lb) are known. It has been estimated that adult members of the now extinct Eurasian populations weighed 102 kg (225 lbs).

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______________________________________________________________________

werewolf2012
 
How about Spotted hyena vs Dire wolf?


Edited by Taipan, Oct 15 2017, 05:22 PM.
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Black Ice
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Drom King
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And the cheetah was 15.5% lets see it out pull a leopard!.

Cheetah also have more muscle mass than leopards, Though tbh I can't speculate on this as their are no records of them pulling or similar. Right now I'd be stooping to your level by going by assumptions.
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A chimp would out pull a cheetah cus it has a stronger back!

Fail, cursorial predators have stronger spines than pretty much everything else to cope with high speed running.
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What?? i can easly pull with just using my back!!! try pulling with out using your back??? oh look u cant as ur back is always used!!!

I can lay on my stomach and pull my 55lb Siberian husky to me by the scruff of his neck if I wanted. No back motion there.
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LOL push somthing, its mainly ur chest, then biceps and if ur moving then ur legs

lol I suggest you undergo some anatomy classes! You don't push with your chest LOL! It's your BICEPS (triceps are for PULLING) and your quadriceps mainly. The muscles underneath your arms and legs are for pulling (which is why they are placed there for flexion) while the muscles ABOVE your arms and legs (if your sitting) are used for PUSHING!). The only muscled mainly used for pulling in your back are the lats but those don't do anywhere near as much of the work as your biceps/triceps. I suppose you know what push-ups and pull-ups are?
Edited by Black Ice, Feb 13 2013, 10:10 AM.
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Vita
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Feb 13 2013, 08:13 AM
:D Very well,
Size- First of all the dire wolf is bigger.
[b
 
Modern Wolf’s Distant Cousin: The Dire Wolf[/b]
]Justin H. Bohling, Former IWC Educator -- International Wolf Center, 06/10/2008

During the Pleistocene Epoch, between 1.8 million and 12,000 years ago, North America was home to a plethora of large mammals that would have rivaled those of the African savannah of today. One of the top predators in this ecosystem was the dire wolf (Canis dirus), the largest wild canine species the world has ever seen.

Superficially the dire wolf resembled the modern gray wolf (Canis lupus), but close examination has shown that they were two different animals. Adult dire wolves are estimated to have weighed 125 to 175 pounds, while adult gray wolves rarely reach 125 pounds. The dire wolf was actually shorter than the gray wolf, but its more compact and powerful body frame carried more weight.

The most important difference between dire and gray wolves is in their jaw structure. Dire wolves had a broader jaw than gray wolves as well as a higher sagittal crest on top of the skull. The sagittal crest is the bony part of the skull that protrudes from the top near the back where jaw muscles attach. In addition, the teeth of dire wolves, especially the carnassials, the teeth in the middle of the jaw used for cutting, were much larger and more massive. The large, powerful body and jaws suggest that dire wolves were built to eat large prey animals. Their low, strong bodies would have allowed them to pull down and drag large animals, and their massive jaws would have crushed through bone. Fossil jaws from dire wolves show considerable wear on the crowns of the carnassials and molars, suggesting bone eating. A group of scientists estimate that a dire wolf could bite with a force 60 percent greater than that of a modern gray wolf.

However, the dire wolf’s legs were not long or strong enough to enable them to chase fleet-footed prey, which probably limited them to slow-moving animals such as mammoths or giant ground sloths, and to carrion.

Canine evolution is a complex and controversial topic, and paleontologists are still debating the origin of the dire wolf. It appears that it was derived from a North American lineage of wolves separated from the gray wolves in Eurasia. The dire wolf was not the ancestor of the gray wolf or vice versa; they were derived from separate canine lineages on different continents. Many scientists believe that the dire wolf evolved from South American wolves and then suddenly appeared in North America during the Pleistocene.

There is also considerable debate as to when the dire wolf originated. Some scientists suggest that it first appeared 100,000 years ago, while others push the date back to 1.8 million years ago. Part of the problem with determining a reasonable date is that many other extinct canines have been found in the Americas from the same period, and several closely resemble the dire wolf. Scientists are not sure if they represent other canine species or primitive subspecies of the dire wolf

Quote from the dire wolf profile also I should note based off what reddhole posted for new measurments on the dire wolf, 175lbs were average for them. A large dire wolf could very well be over 200lbs seeing as how regular grey wolves can range form 110- large exceptional specimen being 175 plus lbs.
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The Dire Wolf was much larger than the Gray Wolf, and in fact was the largest living wild canine. It averaged about 5 feet long and weight about 175 pounds

A very large wolf would be around average for a dire wolf. A spotted hyena which most populations average around the 150-160 mark would still be smaller.

Weaponry-
Grey wolf
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Spotted hyena
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Dire wolf
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It really should be pretty clear that a modern grey wolf already edges over a spotted hyena in the jaw department in pretty much everything but bite force near the back of the mouth. For those that don't, here are some points
1. The grey wolf due to their incisors are better able to grapple and manipulate their opponents with the mouth.
2. The grey wolf has a larger gape than the hyena
3. The grey wolf has better dentition than a hyena ableing it to be better at disemboweling animals and being able to crush bone at the same time better at the front of the mouth.
And unrelated- The dire wolf had a larger head than the wolf. Which in turn has a comparable skull size to a spotted hyena
Quote:
 
The largest dire wolf skull is 33.3 cm x 17.9 cm while the
largest gray wolf skulls on record are 30.5 cm 15.5 cm and
28.9 cm x 16.3 cm. Of course larger dire wolf skulls likely
existed given that relatively few have been measured
compared to gray wolves.

The average male gray wolf skull from a large sub species has
a skull ~ 27.8 cm 14.7 cm.

Column 14 is upper carnassial length. The largest dire wolf
measured 3.55 cm while the largest gray wolf in this study
measured 3.05 cm. The average male gray wolf from a large
subspecies measured 2.59 cm. Other studies have had male gray wolves from large subspecies average 2.61 cm - 2.73 cm.

Column 15 measures upper carnine width (anterioposterior diameter). The largest dire wolf measured 1.75 cm while the
largest gray wolf measured 1.67 cm and the average male
gray wolf from a large subspecies measured 1.38 cm.
Another study found one gray wolf to have an upper canine
width of 1.8 cm and an average (males - large subspecies)
of 1.51 cm.

It should be painstakingly clear in the weapon department it goes Dire wolf>Grey wolf> Spotted hyena

Strength- First off I want to make one thing clear, hyena are not overall more powerful than a grey wolf, infact overall a grey wolf would have the strength advantage.
The spotted hyena has a strong and well developed neck and forequarters, but relatively underdeveloped hindquarters (just view vitas account of a male hyena failing to best a 30lbs smaller female leopard in a tug of war). The rump is rounded rather than angular, which prevents attackers coming from behind from getting a firm grip on it. Wolves on the contrary have powerful forequarters (to a lesser extant to the hyena) but they also have powerful hind quarters as well. That added with extremely large triceps are what enables them to adobt big cat killing techniques when it comes to hunting large prey (grabbing them by the throat etc and pulling them down)
From Ursus newest thread.
Cursorial canids clearly have very large triceps. Despite their relatively small size compared to the lion or spotted hyena and the positive allometry of triceps mass (exponent= 1.23 for carnivores, and 1.11 for all non-hoppers included in the study).

-Quick related note, info from Forelimb functional anatomy of primitive sabre-toothed felids, M. J. Salesa et al.:
Total triceps as % of total forearm muscle weight:
Cheetah: 15.8%
Leopard: 13.3%
Snow leopard: 14.7%
Jaguar: 12%
Cougar: 14.5%
Lion: 14.7%
Eurasian lynx: 16.2%
Jungle cat: 16.6%
Wolf: 17.2%
African wild dog: 17.4%
So in these two canid species (neither included in Alexander) the triceps do make up a relatively larger percentage of forelimb muscles.
Useful if you want to have an indication of total forelimb muscle mass based on triceps mass.
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The wolf and African wild dog have a higher % of triceps muscles in the forarms indicating a great need for pulling power, moreso than much larger cats like the lion (they don't need as much of a reliability on pulling power than a wolf because they can grapple and thus can use their strength to manipulate etc.) however that doesn't mean a wolf will beat a 500lb lion in a tug of war. However compared to body size, a wolf and AWD would have greater pulling power than most other animals. In a tug of war a wolf would most likely outdo a spotted hyena, while in a lifting contest the spotted hyenas stronger neck would give it the edge. I dare say the more powerful sturdier built dire wolf would ragdoll a hyena in a contest of strength even moreso than that 30lbs smaller female leopard lol

Agility- Dire wolf weren't very fast like the fleet footed grey wolf so their agility would be on par if not slightly less or more than a spotted hyena. This restricted them from hunting fast prey and thus they turned more to mammoths, ground sloths, and ice age bison.

Durability- The dire wolf is extinct sadly but since it's obviously all around superior in build to a grey wolf and a spotted hyena it should be the more durable animal (if you want to call that a significant advantage.)
Dire wolf
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Notice the short robust legs (animals with shorter legs generally have more robust ones), deep ribcage coupled with massive shoulder blades (important attachment points for muscles used for force exerting) huge sagittal crests and zygomatic arches. Compare the dire wolf to the 225lb cave hyena
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I would keep going but before I overload on one post I'd first like to seriously hear a good argument for the advantages people think a spotted hyena has over a dire wolf. I'd really like to hear this. Because this is basically a mismatch to me as I see nothing the hyena has over the dire wolf.

@canidae just saw your post. I'll edit in a bit. But just a show of how people think wolves head and necks are vastly inferior, One of these wolf held a boar stationary by the snout for a good deal while the others attacked it.
You've proven that the dire wolf should be significantly favored over the hyena, not "mismatched." You clearly stated that you were going to prove that this dire wolf v spotted hyena would be a mismatch, so in that sense you have failed. You also stated that you would not favor the larger, more powerful cave hyena (when compared to crocuta crocuta) over the dire wolf at parity, that in itself is laughable.

The dire wolf's weaponry is surely more formidable than that of the spotted hyena, but strength and durability between the two is still comparable. That's why this match is not a "mismatch" in the least.

Edited by Vita, Feb 13 2013, 10:25 AM.
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Black Ice
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Quote:
 
You've proven that the dire wolf should be significantly favored over the hyena, not "mismatched." You clearly stated that you were going to prove that this dire wolf v spotted hyena would be a mismatch, so in that sense you have failed. You also stated that you would not favor the larger, more powerful cave hyena (when compared to crocuta crocuta) over the dire wolf at parity, that in itself is laughable

Significantly favored= Mismatch
Me not favoring a cave hyena over a dire wolf at parity= Logical as it's a freak dire wolf against a small cave hyena. Even if they did have similar weights, I could do this wolf>hyena at similar weights due to multiple reasons and advantages all day every day.

Quote:
 

The dire wolf's weaponry is surely more formidable than that of the spotted hyena, but strength and durability between the two is still comparable. That's why this match is not a "mismatch" in the least

I gave an argument to the contrary, you gave an assumption.
Anymore excuses?
Edited by Black Ice, Feb 13 2013, 10:32 AM.
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Significantly favored does not equal to a mismatch. Overwhelmingly favored, does. According the data YOU provided, there is no reason to favor a dire wolf 9/10. You have failed to do so.

Also:

Quote:
 

It is interesting to note that both the dire wolf and hyena are very robustly built cursorial predators, although the humerus of the hyena is still more robust.

They are however not as similar as they seem, for example, the spine of the hyena is relatively bear-like (and actually more extreme in some manners).

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From “Functional-Adaptive Features and Paleobiologic Implications of the Postcranial Skeleton of the Late Miocene Sabretoth Borhyaenoid Thylacosmilus atrox”.


http://carnivoraforum.com/single/?p=8305636&t=9607288

Therefore I have reasons to believe the strength and durability of these two animals are indeed comparable.
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Black Ice
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Quote:
 
Significantly favored does not equal to a mismatch. Overwhelmingly favored, does

Now your just cherry picking. Name one thing that's keeping the spotted hyena from getting dominated by the LARGER dire wolf.
Overwhelming=1.Very great in amount
Significantly= Fairly large in amount or quantity
Where's the huge difference? It's like saying this wins 7/10 to this winning 8/10.
Quote:
 
According the data YOU provided, there is no reason to favor a dire wolf 9/10.

A mismatch is basically anything from 7/10 to 10/10. I infact will bet money that 8or 9/10 times, a dire wolf would trash a smaller hyena.
Quote:
 
You have failed to do so

Your in denial.
Quote:
 
Therefore I have reasons to believe the strength and durability of these two animals are indeed comparable

A slightly more robust humerus and spine while dire wolf limb bone strength groups with saber cats and pretty much everything else on them is superior to a hyena.

EDIT: Need I mention ursus limb bone reply for the wolf came a while AFTER the data you posted? Seems like new information popped up.
Edited by Black Ice, Feb 13 2013, 10:47 AM.
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Vita
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You've stated that you would PROVE that this is indeed a mismatch, you did not. You've been here for a while, therefore I assume you're aware of what a true mismatch is. Dire wolves aren't exactly larger than hyena, some of the largest hyena are well within its weight range.

I don't really care for you opinion if its not supported by evidence, so I suggest you get on that. As I stated before, it appears as though the strength and durability of these two animals are comparable. Do you have evidence to suggest otherwise?

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Black Ice
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Quote:
 
You've stated that you would PROVE that this is indeed a mismatch, you did not. You've been here for a while, therefore I assume you're aware of what a true mismatch is

I don't see you even attempting to explain why a hyena would have a chance here. Afraid to get proven wrong? Not one post in this thread gives a legit reason to why the hyena has any real chance. But of course I already know you won't admit your fault. A mismatch ranges from 7/10 to 10/10. In my eyes and based off my evidence. This in fact is a mismatch. I'd bet money a larger dire wolf would trash a smaller spotted hyena at the very least 7/10.
Quote:
 
Dire wolves aren't exactly larger than hyena, some of the largest hyena are well within its weight range

Yes let us compare a large hyena to an average dire wolf. Better yet let's go over to dire wolf vs cave hyena where I use a freak dire wolf and you use a small hyena.
Quote:
 
I don't really care for you opinion if its not supported by evidence

I posted evidence actually, you on the other hand are going on opinions. Just read this from you.
Vita
 
As I stated before, it appears as though the strength and durability of these two animals are comparable. Do you have evidence to suggest otherwise?

I provided my evidence. (triceps and skeletons etc.) the only thing you really showed was that hyena have a slightly more robust humeri and spine. The dire wolf has limb bone strength grouping with saber cats. What more do you need?
Edited by Black Ice, Feb 13 2013, 11:02 AM.
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Actually, I've already stated my opinion for this match, 6/10 in favor of the dire wolf, as it has superior weaponry, comparable strength, durability and overall more formidable than the grey wolf.

175 lb for both would equal to "freak sizes," for both, I'd say.

Also:


"As stated, this provides us information about the mechanical advantage of shoulder and chest muscles. In other words, all else being equal (i.e. similar muscle size, physiological cross-sectional area, etc) an animal with a higher figure will have stronger shoulders and chest muscles. Ursus will likely have much to add about limitiations on this metric."

It states that crocuta crocuta outscores both canis lupus and the dire wolf.

Posted Image

Posted Image

However, regarding humerus robusticity:

"The dire wolf scored very high ranking much higher than all extant canids and all three hyena species. Additionally, Canis armbrusteri, which may have been a dire wolf ancestor, scored impressively."

Dire 8.86%
Spotted 8.34%
Canis Lupis 7.49%

Therefore I have my reasons to believe this is not in fact a mismatch.
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Black Ice
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It's about time!
Quote:
 
Actually, I've already stated my opinion for this match, 6/10 in favor of the dire wolf, as it has superior weaponry, comparable strength, durability and overall more formidable than the grey wolf.

You favor the dire wolf point blank period. Why are we even debating this then? Yet to see proof for comparable strength and the so called durability.
Quote:
 
175 lb for both would equal to "freak sizes," for both, I'd say.

Redhhole posted a new study on I think cougar vs dire wolf that based off newer measurements. 175lbs were average for dire wolves. He's been viewing this thread I'm sure he can repost it (if I don't find it first.)
Quote:
 
"As stated, this provides us information about the mechanical advantage of shoulder and chest muscles. In other words, all else being equal (i.e. similar muscle size, physiological cross-sectional area, etc) an animal with a higher figure will have stronger shoulders and chest muscles. Ursus will likely have much to add about limitiations on this metric."

It states that crocuta crocuta outscores both canis lupus and the dire wolf.

Did this come before or after he changed his mind?
Quote:
 
However, regarding humerus robusticity:

"The dire wolf scored very high ranking much higher than all extant canids and all three hyena species. Additionally, Canis armbrusteri, which may have been a dire wolf ancestor, scored impressively."

Dire 8.86%
Spotted 8.34%
Canis Lupis 7.49%

Didn't your earlier quote a while back state hyena had more robust humerus?
Quote:
 
Therefore I have my reasons to believe this is not in fact a mismatch.

I was wondering when you actually were gonna become serious about this. Very well, I would say something but if I do we'll never end this so I'll just agree with you. My eyes are sore from all this reading...
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That information was posted earlier this month here:

http://carnivoraforum.com/topic/9817141/1/?x=25

I just read this thread, based on the new information, I was wrong. However, as suspected earlier, the spotted hyena overall does have stronger forequarters than both lupus and d. wolf. As for its hind limbs, they do not compare so much strength wise to its forelimbs. They are slightly superior when the leopard, however. Respectable.

Just because I favor the d. wolf doesn't mean I agree it's a mismatch, btw. No one but you believes that.

Most matches are assumed to be at parity. As long as that's so, discussing weight seems pointless.
Edited by Vita, Feb 13 2013, 11:28 AM.
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Black Ice
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Quote:
 
That information was posted earlier this month here:

http://carnivoraforum.com/topic/9817141/1/?x=25

Thanks!
Quote:
 
I just read this thread, based on the new information, I was wrong. However, as suspected earlier, the spotted hyena overall does have stronger forequarters than both lupus and d. wolf

Judging from several other contradictory claims (larger triceps, limb bone strength etc.) it is all sketchy. However in a pulling contest a dire wolf should outdo a smaller spotted hyena.
Quote:
 
As for its hind limbs, they do not compare so much strength wise to its forelimbs. They are slightly superior when the leopard, however. Respectable

Quote:
 
Just because I favor the d. wolf doesn't mean I agree it's a mismatch, btw. No one but you believes that.

No one but you has made any sort of legitimate defense for the hyena. Just read this thread. What they think (thought) has been refuted.
Quote:
 
Most matches are assumed to be at parity. As long as that's so, discussing weight seems pointless

In this case it would be a small or average dire wolf vs a large spotted hyena. When the weight diffy is big, you can't swear on the parity law like lycaon says.
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Black Ice
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Vita I think you left something out ;)
Posted Image
Reddhole
 
This measures radius length/humerus length. Lower scores in this ratio indicate greater forelimb muscle mechanical advantage and results in stronger muscles all else being equal. Arboreal felids, which climb often, tend to score high which also likely results in them being able to grapple well all else being equal

I actually helped you out even if the difference is insignificant! However the second part is quite contradictory to me..
Edited by Black Ice, Feb 13 2013, 11:46 AM.
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However sketchy it may appear, one thing is not--both have comparable strength and durability, as I stated before.

And for the record, I've never stated such rubbish like a hyena would best a dire comfortably even before I read the data provided currently. I also never mentioned that canis lupus v spotted hyena was a mismatch in favor of the hyena, ever. So keep that in mind.

You'll notice in general (not always) around here that whichever animal someone likes a lot, they'll be willing to put forth a more thorough argument. Nothing wrong with that.

Exceptionally large female spotted hyena do exist, although rare. About 180-200 lbs to be exact. I say they are well within the range, give or take without excluding impressive individuals.
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Black Ice
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Quote:
 
However sketchy it may appear, one thing is not--both have comparable strength and durability, as I stated before.

What is durability? I agree now with everything else you said.
Quote:
 
And for the record, I've never stated such rubbish like a hyena would best a dire comfortably even before I read the data provided currently

What? I never said you did.....
Quote:
 
I also never mentioned that canis lupus v spotted hyena was a mismatch in favor of the hyena, ever. So keep that in mind.

What?
Quote:
 
You'll notice in general (not always) around here that whichever animal someone likes a lot, they'll be willing to put forth a more thorough argument. Nothing wrong with that

Ok? However if you do notice 9/10 when I actually get into a debate I'm either extremely bored and having nothing to do. Or I'm sick of posters underrating an animal to the point that it might as well not be worth calling a predator. Canines in general are a prime example this. I'm sure you, canidae, and amphicyon also get sick of having to defend dogs against other animals like small cats etc.
Quote:
 
Exceptionally large female spotted hyena do exist, although rare. About 180-200 lbs to be exact

Average for a dire wolf is 175lbs... max should be well over 200.
Quote:
 
I say they are well within the range, give or take without excluding impressive individuals

Quote:
 
Exceptionally
Edited by Black Ice, Feb 13 2013, 12:01 PM.
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Durability is the ability to withstand, often correlating with robustness, being sturdy. Without question D. wolf and Crocuta Crocuta are easily described with numerous words relating to those descriptions.

Pertaining to Canis Dirus's average weight, it's safe to assume that both smaller and larger individuals existed if 175 pounds was the average. (The average weight of yellowstone's wolves is around 90-120 pounds) but larger and exceptionally large specimens do exist. Depending on the region, hyena can be smaller or larger than average. The average weight for spotted hyena population can differ based on factors such as prey availability, for example. I can't imagine it being different for Canids. Some populations just produce somewhat smaller or larger animals on average than others.

Of course with size comes an increase in power.

If D.wolf was in fact well over 200 pounds, that's Cave hyena territory, not the spotted.

Posted Image

I can't say I disagree entirely with some user's disregard to dogs (only if they're just ridiculous). I used to be the main culprit in overrating their capabilities.


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