| Welcome to Carnivora. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Dire Wolf v Spotted Hyena | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 17 2012, 05:58 PM (37,527 Views) | |
| Taipan | Jun 17 2012, 05:58 PM Post #1 |
![]()
Administrator
![]()
|
Dire Wolf - Canis dirus The Dire wolf (Canis dirus) is an extinct carnivorous mammal of the genus Canis, and was most common in North America and South America from the Irvingtonian stage to the Rancholabrean stage of the Pleistocene epoch living 1.80 Ma – 10,000 years ago, existing for approximately 1.79 million years. lthough it was closely related to the Gray Wolf and other sister species, Canis dirus was not the direct ancestor of any species known today. Unlike the Gray Wolf, which is of Eurasian origin, the Dire Wolf evolved on the North American continent, along with the Coyote. The Dire Wolf co-existed with the Gray Wolf in North America for about 100,000 years. The dire wolf was about the same size as the largest modern gray wolves (Canis lupus), which are the Yukon wolf and the northwestern wolf. C. d. guildayi weighed on average 60 kilograms (132 lb) and C. d. dirus was on average 68 kg (150 lb). Despite superficial similarities to the Gray Wolf, there were significant differences between the two species. The legs of the Dire Wolf were proportionally shorter and sturdier than those of the Gray Wolf, and its brain case was smaller than that of a similarly sized gray wolf. The Dire Wolf's teeth were similar to the Gray Wolf's, only slightly larger, pointing to a hypercarnivorous to mesocarnivorous activity. Paleontologist R.M. Nowak states the dietary characteristics are primarily carnivorous as well as partially omnivorous. ![]() Spotted Hyena - Crocuta crocuta The spotted hyena (Crocuta crocuta), also known as the laughing hyena or tiger wolf, is a species of hyena native to Sub-Saharan Africa. It is listed as Least Concern by the IUCN on account of its widespread range and large numbers estimated at 10,000 individuals. The spotted hyena is the largest extant member of the Hyaenidae.[43] Adults measure 95.0—165.8 cm in body length, and have a shoulder height of 70.0-91.5 cm. Adult male spotted hyenas in the Serengeti weigh 40.5—55.0 kg (89—121 lb), while females weigh 44.5—63.9 kg (98—141 lb). Spotted hyenas in Zambia tend to be heavier, with males weighing on average 67.6 kg (149 lb), and females 69.2 kg (153 lb). Exceptionally large weights of 81.7 kg (180 lb) and 86 kg (190 lb) are known. It has been estimated that adult members of the now extinct Eurasian populations weighed 102 kg (225 lbs). ______________________________________________________________________
Edited by Taipan, Oct 15 2017, 05:22 PM.
|
![]() |
|
| Replies: | |
|---|---|
| Black Ice | Feb 13 2013, 10:00 AM Post #136 |
![]()
Drom King
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Cheetah also have more muscle mass than leopards, Though tbh I can't speculate on this as their are no records of them pulling or similar. Right now I'd be stooping to your level by going by assumptions.
Fail, cursorial predators have stronger spines than pretty much everything else to cope with high speed running.
I can lay on my stomach and pull my 55lb Siberian husky to me by the scruff of his neck if I wanted. No back motion there.
I suggest you undergo some anatomy classes! You don't push with your chest LOL! It's your BICEPS (triceps are for PULLING) and your quadriceps mainly. The muscles underneath your arms and legs are for pulling (which is why they are placed there for flexion) while the muscles ABOVE your arms and legs (if your sitting) are used for PUSHING!). The only muscled mainly used for pulling in your back are the lats but those don't do anywhere near as much of the work as your biceps/triceps. I suppose you know what push-ups and pull-ups are?
Edited by Black Ice, Feb 13 2013, 10:10 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| Vita | Feb 13 2013, 10:24 AM Post #137 |
![]()
Cave Canem
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
You've proven that the dire wolf should be significantly favored over the hyena, not "mismatched." You clearly stated that you were going to prove that this dire wolf v spotted hyena would be a mismatch, so in that sense you have failed. You also stated that you would not favor the larger, more powerful cave hyena (when compared to crocuta crocuta) over the dire wolf at parity, that in itself is laughable. The dire wolf's weaponry is surely more formidable than that of the spotted hyena, but strength and durability between the two is still comparable. That's why this match is not a "mismatch" in the least. Edited by Vita, Feb 13 2013, 10:25 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| Black Ice | Feb 13 2013, 10:28 AM Post #138 |
![]()
Drom King
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Significantly favored= Mismatch Me not favoring a cave hyena over a dire wolf at parity= Logical as it's a freak dire wolf against a small cave hyena. Even if they did have similar weights, I could do this wolf>hyena at similar weights due to multiple reasons and advantages all day every day.
I gave an argument to the contrary, you gave an assumption. Anymore excuses? Edited by Black Ice, Feb 13 2013, 10:32 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| Vita | Feb 13 2013, 10:35 AM Post #139 |
![]()
Cave Canem
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Significantly favored does not equal to a mismatch. Overwhelmingly favored, does. According the data YOU provided, there is no reason to favor a dire wolf 9/10. You have failed to do so. Also:
http://carnivoraforum.com/single/?p=8305636&t=9607288 Therefore I have reasons to believe the strength and durability of these two animals are indeed comparable. |
![]() |
|
| Black Ice | Feb 13 2013, 10:39 AM Post #140 |
![]()
Drom King
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Now your just cherry picking. Name one thing that's keeping the spotted hyena from getting dominated by the LARGER dire wolf. Overwhelming=1.Very great in amount Significantly= Fairly large in amount or quantity Where's the huge difference? It's like saying this wins 7/10 to this winning 8/10.
A mismatch is basically anything from 7/10 to 10/10. I infact will bet money that 8or 9/10 times, a dire wolf would trash a smaller hyena.
Your in denial.
A slightly more robust humerus and spine while dire wolf limb bone strength groups with saber cats and pretty much everything else on them is superior to a hyena. EDIT: Need I mention ursus limb bone reply for the wolf came a while AFTER the data you posted? Seems like new information popped up. Edited by Black Ice, Feb 13 2013, 10:47 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| Vita | Feb 13 2013, 10:47 AM Post #141 |
![]()
Cave Canem
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
You've stated that you would PROVE that this is indeed a mismatch, you did not. You've been here for a while, therefore I assume you're aware of what a true mismatch is. Dire wolves aren't exactly larger than hyena, some of the largest hyena are well within its weight range. I don't really care for you opinion if its not supported by evidence, so I suggest you get on that. As I stated before, it appears as though the strength and durability of these two animals are comparable. Do you have evidence to suggest otherwise? |
![]() |
|
| Black Ice | Feb 13 2013, 10:54 AM Post #142 |
![]()
Drom King
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I don't see you even attempting to explain why a hyena would have a chance here. Afraid to get proven wrong? Not one post in this thread gives a legit reason to why the hyena has any real chance. But of course I already know you won't admit your fault. A mismatch ranges from 7/10 to 10/10. In my eyes and based off my evidence. This in fact is a mismatch. I'd bet money a larger dire wolf would trash a smaller spotted hyena at the very least 7/10.
Yes let us compare a large hyena to an average dire wolf. Better yet let's go over to dire wolf vs cave hyena where I use a freak dire wolf and you use a small hyena.
I posted evidence actually, you on the other hand are going on opinions. Just read this from you.
I provided my evidence. (triceps and skeletons etc.) the only thing you really showed was that hyena have a slightly more robust humeri and spine. The dire wolf has limb bone strength grouping with saber cats. What more do you need? Edited by Black Ice, Feb 13 2013, 11:02 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| Vita | Feb 13 2013, 11:11 AM Post #143 |
![]()
Cave Canem
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Actually, I've already stated my opinion for this match, 6/10 in favor of the dire wolf, as it has superior weaponry, comparable strength, durability and overall more formidable than the grey wolf. 175 lb for both would equal to "freak sizes," for both, I'd say. Also: "As stated, this provides us information about the mechanical advantage of shoulder and chest muscles. In other words, all else being equal (i.e. similar muscle size, physiological cross-sectional area, etc) an animal with a higher figure will have stronger shoulders and chest muscles. Ursus will likely have much to add about limitiations on this metric." It states that crocuta crocuta outscores both canis lupus and the dire wolf. ![]() ![]() However, regarding humerus robusticity: "The dire wolf scored very high ranking much higher than all extant canids and all three hyena species. Additionally, Canis armbrusteri, which may have been a dire wolf ancestor, scored impressively." Dire 8.86% Spotted 8.34% Canis Lupis 7.49% Therefore I have my reasons to believe this is not in fact a mismatch. |
![]() |
|
| Black Ice | Feb 13 2013, 11:21 AM Post #144 |
![]()
Drom King
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
It's about time!
You favor the dire wolf point blank period. Why are we even debating this then? Yet to see proof for comparable strength and the so called durability.
Redhhole posted a new study on I think cougar vs dire wolf that based off newer measurements. 175lbs were average for dire wolves. He's been viewing this thread I'm sure he can repost it (if I don't find it first.)
Did this come before or after he changed his mind?
Didn't your earlier quote a while back state hyena had more robust humerus?
I was wondering when you actually were gonna become serious about this. Very well, I would say something but if I do we'll never end this so I'll just agree with you. My eyes are sore from all this reading... |
![]() |
|
| Vita | Feb 13 2013, 11:27 AM Post #145 |
![]()
Cave Canem
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
That information was posted earlier this month here: http://carnivoraforum.com/topic/9817141/1/?x=25 I just read this thread, based on the new information, I was wrong. However, as suspected earlier, the spotted hyena overall does have stronger forequarters than both lupus and d. wolf. As for its hind limbs, they do not compare so much strength wise to its forelimbs. They are slightly superior when the leopard, however. Respectable. Just because I favor the d. wolf doesn't mean I agree it's a mismatch, btw. No one but you believes that. Most matches are assumed to be at parity. As long as that's so, discussing weight seems pointless. Edited by Vita, Feb 13 2013, 11:28 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| Black Ice | Feb 13 2013, 11:34 AM Post #146 |
![]()
Drom King
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Thanks!
Judging from several other contradictory claims (larger triceps, limb bone strength etc.) it is all sketchy. However in a pulling contest a dire wolf should outdo a smaller spotted hyena.
No one but you has made any sort of legitimate defense for the hyena. Just read this thread. What they think (thought) has been refuted.
In this case it would be a small or average dire wolf vs a large spotted hyena. When the weight diffy is big, you can't swear on the parity law like lycaon says. |
![]() |
|
| Black Ice | Feb 13 2013, 11:40 AM Post #147 |
![]()
Drom King
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Vita I think you left something out ![]()
I actually helped you out even if the difference is insignificant! Edited by Black Ice, Feb 13 2013, 11:46 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| Vita | Feb 13 2013, 11:47 AM Post #148 |
![]()
Cave Canem
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
However sketchy it may appear, one thing is not--both have comparable strength and durability, as I stated before. And for the record, I've never stated such rubbish like a hyena would best a dire comfortably even before I read the data provided currently. I also never mentioned that canis lupus v spotted hyena was a mismatch in favor of the hyena, ever. So keep that in mind. You'll notice in general (not always) around here that whichever animal someone likes a lot, they'll be willing to put forth a more thorough argument. Nothing wrong with that. Exceptionally large female spotted hyena do exist, although rare. About 180-200 lbs to be exact. I say they are well within the range, give or take without excluding impressive individuals. |
![]() |
|
| Black Ice | Feb 13 2013, 11:58 AM Post #149 |
![]()
Drom King
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
What is durability? I agree now with everything else you said.
What? I never said you did.....
What?
Ok? However if you do notice 9/10 when I actually get into a debate I'm either extremely bored and having nothing to do. Or I'm sick of posters underrating an animal to the point that it might as well not be worth calling a predator. Canines in general are a prime example this. I'm sure you, canidae, and amphicyon also get sick of having to defend dogs against other animals like small cats etc.
Average for a dire wolf is 175lbs... max should be well over 200.
Edited by Black Ice, Feb 13 2013, 12:01 PM.
|
![]() |
|
| Vita | Feb 13 2013, 02:50 PM Post #150 |
![]()
Cave Canem
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Durability is the ability to withstand, often correlating with robustness, being sturdy. Without question D. wolf and Crocuta Crocuta are easily described with numerous words relating to those descriptions. Pertaining to Canis Dirus's average weight, it's safe to assume that both smaller and larger individuals existed if 175 pounds was the average. (The average weight of yellowstone's wolves is around 90-120 pounds) but larger and exceptionally large specimens do exist. Depending on the region, hyena can be smaller or larger than average. The average weight for spotted hyena population can differ based on factors such as prey availability, for example. I can't imagine it being different for Canids. Some populations just produce somewhat smaller or larger animals on average than others. Of course with size comes an increase in power. If D.wolf was in fact well over 200 pounds, that's Cave hyena territory, not the spotted. I can't say I disagree entirely with some user's disregard to dogs (only if they're just ridiculous). I used to be the main culprit in overrating their capabilities. |
![]() |
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
![]() ZetaBoards gives you all the tools to create a successful discussion community. Learn More · Sign-up Now |
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Interspecific Conflict · Next Topic » |












![]](http://b2.ifrm.com/28122/87/0/p701956/pipright.png)
I suggest you undergo some anatomy classes! You don't push with your chest LOL! It's your BICEPS (triceps are for PULLING) and your quadriceps mainly. The muscles underneath your arms and legs are for pulling (which is why they are placed there for flexion) while the muscles ABOVE your arms and legs (if your sitting) are used for PUSHING!). The only muscled mainly used for pulling in your back are the lats but those don't do anywhere near as much of the work as your biceps/triceps. I suppose you know what push-ups and pull-ups are?

Very well,












10:01 AM Jul 11