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Dire Wolf v Spotted Hyena
Topic Started: Jun 17 2012, 05:58 PM (37,519 Views)
Taipan
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Dire Wolf - Canis dirus
The Dire wolf (Canis dirus) is an extinct carnivorous mammal of the genus Canis, and was most common in North America and South America from the Irvingtonian stage to the Rancholabrean stage of the Pleistocene epoch living 1.80 Ma – 10,000 years ago, existing for approximately 1.79 million years. lthough it was closely related to the Gray Wolf and other sister species, Canis dirus was not the direct ancestor of any species known today. Unlike the Gray Wolf, which is of Eurasian origin, the Dire Wolf evolved on the North American continent, along with the Coyote. The Dire Wolf co-existed with the Gray Wolf in North America for about 100,000 years. The dire wolf was about the same size as the largest modern gray wolves (Canis lupus), which are the Yukon wolf and the northwestern wolf. C. d. guildayi weighed on average 60 kilograms (132 lb) and C. d. dirus was on average 68 kg (150 lb). Despite superficial similarities to the Gray Wolf, there were significant differences between the two species. The legs of the Dire Wolf were proportionally shorter and sturdier than those of the Gray Wolf, and its brain case was smaller than that of a similarly sized gray wolf. The Dire Wolf's teeth were similar to the Gray Wolf's, only slightly larger, pointing to a hypercarnivorous to mesocarnivorous activity. Paleontologist R.M. Nowak states the dietary characteristics are primarily carnivorous as well as partially omnivorous.

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Spotted Hyena - Crocuta crocuta
The spotted hyena (Crocuta crocuta), also known as the laughing hyena or tiger wolf, is a species of hyena native to Sub-Saharan Africa. It is listed as Least Concern by the IUCN on account of its widespread range and large numbers estimated at 10,000 individuals. The spotted hyena is the largest extant member of the Hyaenidae.[43] Adults measure 95.0—165.8 cm in body length, and have a shoulder height of 70.0-91.5 cm. Adult male spotted hyenas in the Serengeti weigh 40.5—55.0 kg (89—121 lb), while females weigh 44.5—63.9 kg (98—141 lb). Spotted hyenas in Zambia tend to be heavier, with males weighing on average 67.6 kg (149 lb), and females 69.2 kg (153 lb). Exceptionally large weights of 81.7 kg (180 lb) and 86 kg (190 lb) are known. It has been estimated that adult members of the now extinct Eurasian populations weighed 102 kg (225 lbs).

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werewolf2012
 
How about Spotted hyena vs Dire wolf?


Edited by Taipan, Oct 15 2017, 05:22 PM.
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Vita
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Meancat
Feb 24 2018, 06:10 PM
Ryo
Feb 24 2018, 01:44 PM
Meancat
Feb 24 2018, 12:09 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
But how about their body robustity.
Limb robustness doesn't matter much, since neither animal can grapple.
Ridiculous. Of course it matters.

It directly correlates with how much force an animal can produce and/or withstand.
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Sparx
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Dire Wolf has the higher biteforce but the Hyena also has a good bite and is very durable. It is a tough match but I think the Hyena would win 7/10 times.
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WaffleKing
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I would favor the dire Wolf, as their bite was stronger (though not by much) and they are just more precise hunters.
However, Hyenas are hella durable.
This would be quite a fight
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CanineCanis
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WaffleKing
Mar 10 2018, 12:14 PM
I would favor the dire Wolf, as their bite was stronger (though not by much) and they are just more precise hunters.
However, Hyenas are hella durable.
This would be quite a fight
hyenas are pretty durable, but it’s overrated by quite a bit, some act like the hyena is impossible to kill

As of right now I favor a male gray wolf at parity over a hyena so obviously I’m picking the Dire here, this fight is Pretty one sided in my opinion
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Vita
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It's only one sided to those too biased to comb over the data. Most reasonable people have concluded that there are significant advantages hyena have over wolves in general. But I suppose a practically irrelevant difference in canine bite force is oh so compelling. Either that or it's been too long since I last posted.

The point is I'm having trouble seeing why this is one sided so hopefully you'll help me out.
Edited by Vita, Mar 10 2018, 01:05 PM.
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K9 Bite
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Strong, compact limbs matter a good deal, even in canids. A dog like a American Bulldog will do much greater damage and have a better control of its opponet as not only the head is muscular but also the neck which is backed up by a broad chest and compact legs that put a firm hold on the ground. And in some fights, you can see dogs even use their front limbs to some degree in order to bring their opponents to the ground, exposing their open belly and throat. When a gripping dog bites, it used it's whole body to deal damage:
https://youtu.be/nPaTtWWDg2g

Anyway I'm a bit off topic, but I've read in most sources that claim that not only Dire Wolves were more robust than Grey Wolves but their limbs were much shorter in proportion to their body when compared to Grey Wolves. I'm assuming that would mean that the Dire Wolf was actually built more compact and stronger than a Grey Wolf, almost more of a Bully Dog build than a Shepherd/Marathon dog build. I back the Dire Wolf at Parity.
http://wolfweb.com/?page_id=128
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Ursus 21
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Vita
Mar 10 2018, 01:04 PM
It's only one sided to those too biased to comb over the data. Most reasonable people have concluded that there are significant advantages hyena have over wolves in general. But I suppose a practically irrelevant difference in canine bite force is oh so compelling. Either that or it's been too long since I last posted.

The point is I'm having trouble seeing why this is one sided so hopefully you'll help me out.
What are some of the advantages that hyenas have over wolves in combat?

What threads can I go to in order to gain an insight on this?
Edited by Ursus 21, Mar 10 2018, 01:18 PM.
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CanineCanis
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Vita
Mar 10 2018, 01:04 PM
It's only one sided to those too biased to comb over the data. Most reasonable people have concluded that there are significant advantages hyena have over wolves in general. But I suppose a practically irrelevant difference in canine bite force is oh so compelling. Either that or it's been too long since I last posted.

The point is I'm having trouble seeing why this is one sided so hopefully you'll help me out.
I’ll show my reasoning

The dire wolf is the largest canine (extant and extinct) known within the genus Canis. While Van Valkenburgh and Koepfli (1993) estimated the mass of the dire wolf to be 50 kg from regressions of skull length and head-body length against body weight for extant carnivores, a more recent study by Anyonge and Roman (2006) estimated a heavier mass based on least- squares and reduced-major-axis regression models for five measurements of the femur; they estimated an average body mass of 60kg for western dire wolves (those specimens studied from localities in California and Mexico; synonymous with Canis dirus guildayi [Kúrten 1984]) and 68kg for the eastern dire wolf (those specimens studied from localities in Texas, Florida, and Missouri; synonymous with Canis dirus dirus [Kúrten 1984]).
Source : SHAPE EVOLUTION AND SEXUAL DIMORPHISM IN THE MANDIBLE OF THE DIRE WOLF, CANIS DIRUS, AT RANCHO LA BREA

During the last Ice Age, dire wolves were quite common in the Rancho La Brea area. In fact, more dire wolf fossils have been found during excavations than those of any other mammal species. The large number suggests that these fierce animals, similar to modern wolves and dogs, hunted in packs and may have been caught in the asphalt together while trying to feed upon other animals. This wolf is very closely related to the modern timber wolf (also found at Rancho La Brea), but had slight physical differences, such as larger teeth and shorter limbs.

http://www.tarpits.org/education/guide/flora/wolf.html

The Dire Wolf is an extinct North American species of wolf which was a great deal larger than our wolves of present day.

For about 100,000 years it lived alongside its cousins, the Gray Wolves, although they are not directly linked.

The Dire Wolf was much larger than the Gray Wolf, and in fact was the largest living wild canine. It averaged about 5 feet long and weight about 175 pounds.

From "Mammals of southern Africa"

Zimbabwe

Males 57.8kg range=49-66.3kg
Females 64.8kg range=55.8-76.7kg

Kruger

Males 62.5 range 54-70kg
Females 68.2kg range 55-81kg

Kwazulu

Males 66.6kg range 55-79kg
Females 70kg range 56-80kg

Kalahari

Males 59kg range 55.8-62.5kg
Females 70.9kg Range 67.1-75kg

The Dire Wolf was bigger than the Gray Wolf, it averaged about 1.5 metres (5 ft) in length and weighed about 110 kg (240 lb).[

I couldn’t find any monster hyena weights so if you have any that would be nice


So basically this is a parity match up as both animals are practically the same weight as far as I see

Also what does the hyena have the combat advantage at? I’m pretty sure wolves have superior jaws however I could be wrong

Well wolves are my favorite animals so a little bit of bias might be sprinkled in my posts, I have a real soft spot for wolves

Well the bite force does matter :P

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Hyena skeleton

Dire wolf skeleton

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Hyena skull

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Dire wolf skull

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Couldn’t find anything on hyena teeth in terms of length ect. But here are some dire wolf teeth pictures

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I’ll just judge off of this skull picturePosted Image

I’d say the Dire looks like it has more impressive teeth

That’s the end of this post



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Ryo
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Ursus 21
Mar 10 2018, 01:16 PM
Vita
Mar 10 2018, 01:04 PM
It's only one sided to those too biased to comb over the data. Most reasonable people have concluded that there are significant advantages hyena have over wolves in general. But I suppose a practically irrelevant difference in canine bite force is oh so compelling. Either that or it's been too long since I last posted.

The point is I'm having trouble seeing why this is one sided so hopefully you'll help me out.
What are some of the advantages that hyenas have over wolves in combat?

What threads can I go to in order to gain an insight on this?
I can't recall if it was you or someone else, but there was the whole skin thickness factor of Hyenas and their great durability, which would be their main advantage. In some parts I also believe they are physically stronger.
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Vita
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First things first, I have concerns about some inconsistencies:

Quote:
 
The Dire Wolf was much larger than the Gray Wolf, and in fact was the largest living wild canine. It averaged about 5 feet long and weight about 175 pounds.

Quote:
 
The Dire Wolf was bigger than the Gray Wolf, it averaged about 1.5 metres (5 ft) in length and weighed about 110 kg (240 lb).


The average dire wolf weighed about as much as the largest Grey wolves today. Although, somewhere between 130-150 lbs would be about right, with some individuals getting as large as 175 lbs. So pretty much on par with the typical female hyena, whereas modern wolves are a great deal smaller.


Quote:
 
Also what does the hyena have the combat advantage at


None overall.

Looking at the skeletons of both predators, it's obvious that they went about inflicting damage in a similar fashion. Outside of some adaptions for running more efficiently (wolf e.g. limb length ) or carrying carcasses (hyena e.g. neck in proportion with forelimbs), I still fail to see how this is one sided in favor of the dire wolf.



Ursus 21
Mar 10 2018, 01:16 PM
Vita
Mar 10 2018, 01:04 PM
It's only one sided to those too biased to comb over the data. Most reasonable people have concluded that there are significant advantages hyena have over wolves in general. But I suppose a practically irrelevant difference in canine bite force is oh so compelling. Either that or it's been too long since I last posted.

The point is I'm having trouble seeing why this is one sided so hopefully you'll help me out.
What are some of the advantages that hyenas have over wolves in combat?

What threads can I go to in order to gain an insight on this?
The spotted hyena v Grey wolf Thread has A LOT of information. It's easily the best thread on the internet about that match up.

You got to dig through it to find the juicy information, it starts about here:

http://carnivoraforum.com/topic/9329673/16/
Edited by Vita, Mar 10 2018, 03:49 PM.
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Ursus 21
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CanineCanis, I agree that the dire wolf is larger and more impressive than the modern grey wolf, but I also agree with Vita in a sense that I don't see how this matchup is a one-sided affair in favour of the dire wolf, and you haven't really convinced me that the dire wolf has any game-changing advantages.

In my personal opinion, I would say that the spotted hyena is more impressive than even the dire wolf in most aspects. After poking around the 'Grey wolf vs Spotted hyena' thread at Vita's recommendation, I have stumbled upon some valuable comparisons and information. Bear in mind that these comparisons are made between the spotted hyena and the grey wolf, thus, we can expect the dire wolf to look better by comparison than the grey wolf.

Regardless, posted by Vita, a comparison of skulls between the grey wolf and the spotted hyena:

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The hyena is far more impressive. The skull is much wider and can house room for larger jaw muscles. The hyena's zygomatic arches are thicker and more robust. It's frontal crest and temporal line at the back of the skull are also much thicker than the wolf's. At the front of the skull, its muzzle and maxilla are also more robust.

The only advantage I could give the wolf is that, arguably, its dentition is superior.

Another resource Vita has posted further explains the robusticity of the hyena's skull:

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Sub-adult spotted hyena:

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I can also make a point about the hyena's durability.

I posted this on the 'grey wolf vs spotted hyena' thread:

Quote:
 
Taipan
Nov 17 2017, 08:25 PM
I think the durability advantage clearly lies with the Spotted Hyeana at parity or at at average weights.
I have put this post together in order to consolidate this accurate observation:

Hyena durability:

In the middle of the night a leopard got caught in one of his small steel traps, which he had set out with a light drag. The beast made a terrific row and went off with the trap and drag. It was only caught by one toe; a hyena similarly caught would have wrenched itself loose; but the leopard, though a far braver and more dangerous beast, has less fortitude under pain than a hyena. Heller tracked it up in the morning, and shot it as, hampered by the trap and drag, it charged the porters.
Roosevelt, Theodore (1910), African Game Trails, page 474

Hyenas not only have a very tough skin and are almost impervious to pain (which I noticed when punishing my tame one, and when I had to pull out his rotten tooth)...
Kruuk, Hans (1972), The Spotted Hyena: A study of predation and social behaviour, page 224

Hyena survives throat bite from male lion, bones could be heard breaking:

Earlier this week I came across this sighting, a clear example of predators who don't like each other:

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The Lion was trying to kill this Hyena and had a pretty good grip at his throat. He dragged the Hyena around a bit and later changed his grip to the neck/head of the Hyena. Several times I could here the crushing of bones.
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After about 10 minutes the Lion let go off the Hyena and settled in the bushes next to the road.
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All those 10 minutes the Hyena didn't move at all and I was convinced it was death. Remember that the Lion already had a tight grip on the throat of the Hyena when I encountered them, and there were dragmarks of at least 20 meters.

But the Hyena was still breathing, and after 7 minutes started lifting its head and reacting to sounds.

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This continued for about 15 minutes when a car came around the corner from the other side. This made Hyena get up and it looked like his back legs were paralyzed and there was a big open wound on his lower back as well.
The Hyena moved directly to the bushes where the Lion was and I was suspecting the Lion to finish his job. But that didn't happen, the Lion got up, watched the Hyena, the Hyena saw the Lion and stumbled away.

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I guess the Lion decided he'd punished the Hyena enough to show who's the King of the jungle. I only hope the end for the Hyena came quick.
Source: Lion vs Hyena fight

Hyena survives brutal jaw injury:

Hyenas are tough, way tough. We’ve all heard stories about such and such hyena that recovered from such and such terrible injury, but I had never seen it before until Moon Pie.

Moon Pie has always been a pretty solitary hyena. She’s relatively low ranking and most times we track her she is sacked out. She also manages to look more like a rock than any other hyena I’ve met yet. We have been tracking her and driven up to rocks that we think are her and passed by her thinking she’s a rock. Multiple times. It’s quite embarrassing.


One day, we tracked Moon Pie and found her sacked out, as usual. We didn’t drive too close due to her being sacked out in a swampy area. When she lifted up her head I started laughing immediately. It looked as if she was making some sort of silly face and I couldn’t imagine why she was doing that. But, at the time we didn’t think too much off it. We really did think that she was just kind of sticking her tongue out at us.


A few days later we tracked her again. This time we got a little closer and were surprised to see that she was still making that same silly face. But it wasn’t a face that she was making. It was just her face. It looked like someone had punched her with a concrete block. The left side of her face was completely swollen, her jaw was out of alignment and a few of her teeth appeared to have been broken or had fallen out.

We were pretty sure that she was not going to make it. We tracked her whenever we could for a week or two and any time we saw her she was sacked out and not really moving but, she always seemed alert. And then the swelling started to go down. And then we saw her moving around. And then we saw her chewing a bit. She still doesn’t look great by any standards. Her jaw is still out of alignment, her cheek looks painful, she has lost quite a few teeth, and those she hasn’t are perpendicular to the direction they should be pointing. But, she’s up and about, feeding, and pooping so it looks like she’s going to survive this one."


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Source: Hyena survives horrible jaw injury

Hyena survives attack from pride of lions, and two throat bites from a male lion:

Video: Pride of lions attack hyena

This is the biggest mistake of its life - David Attenborough

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The first throat attack from the male lion:

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The lioness vents her anger too! - David Attenborough

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But all she gets is a bloody nose - David Attenborough

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The male lion made his second throat attack:

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Even for a whole pride, the hyena is a tough adversary - David Attenborough

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The hyena survived:

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Here are some particularly fit and powerful specimens.

Their robusticity and durability is matched by no wolf:

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Thus, as far as I know, the hyena has lots of important advantages over the dire wolf.

I just don't see how this fight is one-sided!
Edited by Ursus 21, Mar 10 2018, 07:22 PM.
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CanineCanis
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Ursus 21,

The skull thing is impressive however a dire wolf’s skull is more impressive than the gray by a lot,


Oh yeah and for some durability on wolves (you probably already saw this video but I don’t care!)



The problem I have with some of those accounts is that the lions don’t look particularly interested, I saw a video of a male lion attacking 3 Hyenas and paralyzed one of them with ease, when he came back he killed the hyena with a neck bite

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That lion looks like he just doesn’t care if he actually kills the hyena

I will admit Hyenas are more durable than wolves, although not by a big margin

Skeleton comparison dire wolf on top, Hyena on bottom

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Skull comparison hyena on top, dire wolf in middle, gray wolf on the bottom

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The main game changer for me is the significant difference in teeth, I’m pretty sure a gray wolf has superior teeth all around than a hyena, and a gray wolf’s BFQ is 127 and accordingly a hyena’s is 99, I’m not sure what a Dire wolf’s is though

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Dire wolf close up teeth (skull)

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The hyena just doesn’t have the better teeth! Not to mention the gray wolf has a superior jaw with the wider gape and the Dire wolf has more bite force

Not to mention Ursus, the Dire wolf has a much more robust build than a gray wolf, going by that you could assume it could take more damage than a gray as well

That last picture of the “huge” hyena looks like a bunch of camera tricks from a hunter

If you want to use that I can too for wolves

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Hyenas aren’t the only ones with large and “fit” specimens
Edited by CanineCanis, Mar 10 2018, 11:44 PM.
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Vita
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I do think it's interesting how you posted images comparing a wolf's teeth to a hyena using photos of one, a yearling who just got its carnassals with baby canines and an older hyena with worn, yellow canines.

Top row:

Spotted hyena, Brown hyena, Cougar, Gray Wolf

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Some of the same skulls from a different angle

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Hyena and Grey wolf

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Canis family. Dire Wolf was a great deal better than the Gray? Certainly doesn't look like it.

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CanineCanis
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Vita
Mar 11 2018, 12:12 AM
I do think it's interesting how you posted images comparing a wolf's teeth to a hyena using photos of one, a yearling who just got its carnassals with baby canines and an older hyena with worn, yellow canines.

Top row:

Spotted hyena, Brown hyena, Cougar, Gray Wolf

Posted Image

Some of the same skulls from a different angle

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Hyena and Grey wolf

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Canis family. Dire Wolf was a great deal better than the Gray? Certainly doesn't look like it.

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What about these photos of hyena teeth?

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The gray wolf’s teeth look more impressive

Dire wolf teeth

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The teeth difference clearly favors the wolves

The Dire wolf’s skull looks longer than the gray’s and it also looks wider in nearly every area

As for a comparison

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Not sure how reliable this one is but I’ll post it anyway

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This would show how much more stocky the Dire wolf is to the gray wolf

What are the advantages the hyena has? Cause so far I have no reason to not believe a Dire wolf would completely bully a hyena in a fight

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Vita
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Again, it's not so much what clear advantages a hyena has over a dire wolf, more so how on par the two are stacked next to each other. Supporting my claim that this match up is not one sided in favor of neither animal. It's fairly close actually.

Cherry picking choice skulls and other photos on Google doesn't compell me to believe canis d. would bully a spotted hyena as opposed to a real struggle. Longer canine teeth is not enough evidence or a viable argument. Especially when their skeletons are compared. Speaking of which, you should have noticed the similarities as far potential power goes. From the tibia to the shoulder blade, nothing suggests "bully."

I'm convinced you're not sure what you're looking at. That is why it's amusing to me that anyone who took the time out to study the data provided on this website would suggest what you're implying. So I have no choice but to believe that you have not researched this topic enough or you're just biased because you like wolves. Let me know if I'm in the ballpark.
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