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| Dire Wolf v Spotted Hyena | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 17 2012, 05:58 PM (37,518 Views) | |
| Taipan | Jun 17 2012, 05:58 PM Post #1 |
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Dire Wolf - Canis dirus The Dire wolf (Canis dirus) is an extinct carnivorous mammal of the genus Canis, and was most common in North America and South America from the Irvingtonian stage to the Rancholabrean stage of the Pleistocene epoch living 1.80 Ma – 10,000 years ago, existing for approximately 1.79 million years. lthough it was closely related to the Gray Wolf and other sister species, Canis dirus was not the direct ancestor of any species known today. Unlike the Gray Wolf, which is of Eurasian origin, the Dire Wolf evolved on the North American continent, along with the Coyote. The Dire Wolf co-existed with the Gray Wolf in North America for about 100,000 years. The dire wolf was about the same size as the largest modern gray wolves (Canis lupus), which are the Yukon wolf and the northwestern wolf. C. d. guildayi weighed on average 60 kilograms (132 lb) and C. d. dirus was on average 68 kg (150 lb). Despite superficial similarities to the Gray Wolf, there were significant differences between the two species. The legs of the Dire Wolf were proportionally shorter and sturdier than those of the Gray Wolf, and its brain case was smaller than that of a similarly sized gray wolf. The Dire Wolf's teeth were similar to the Gray Wolf's, only slightly larger, pointing to a hypercarnivorous to mesocarnivorous activity. Paleontologist R.M. Nowak states the dietary characteristics are primarily carnivorous as well as partially omnivorous. ![]() Spotted Hyena - Crocuta crocuta The spotted hyena (Crocuta crocuta), also known as the laughing hyena or tiger wolf, is a species of hyena native to Sub-Saharan Africa. It is listed as Least Concern by the IUCN on account of its widespread range and large numbers estimated at 10,000 individuals. The spotted hyena is the largest extant member of the Hyaenidae.[43] Adults measure 95.0—165.8 cm in body length, and have a shoulder height of 70.0-91.5 cm. Adult male spotted hyenas in the Serengeti weigh 40.5—55.0 kg (89—121 lb), while females weigh 44.5—63.9 kg (98—141 lb). Spotted hyenas in Zambia tend to be heavier, with males weighing on average 67.6 kg (149 lb), and females 69.2 kg (153 lb). Exceptionally large weights of 81.7 kg (180 lb) and 86 kg (190 lb) are known. It has been estimated that adult members of the now extinct Eurasian populations weighed 102 kg (225 lbs). ______________________________________________________________________
Edited by Taipan, Oct 15 2017, 05:22 PM.
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| CanineCanis | Mar 11 2018, 03:58 AM Post #271 |
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Herbivore
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Is that supposed to be the “Big reply” Modern Wolf’s Distant Cousin: The Dire Wolf[/b] ]Justin H. Bohling, Former IWC Educator -- International Wolf Center, 06/10/2008 During the Pleistocene Epoch, between 1.8 million and 12,000 years ago, North America was home to a plethora of large mammals that would have rivaled those of the African savannah of today. One of the top predators in this ecosystem was the dire wolf (Canis dirus), the largest wild canine species the world has ever seen. Superficially the dire wolf resembled the modern gray wolf (Canis lupus), but close examination has shown that they were two different animals. Adult dire wolves are estimated to have weighed 125 to 175 pounds, while adult gray wolves rarely reach 125 pounds. The dire wolf was actually shorter than the gray wolf, but its more compact and powerful body frame carried more weight. The most important difference between dire and gray wolves is in their jaw structure. Dire wolves had a broader jaw than gray wolves as well as a higher sagittal crest on top of the skull. The sagittal crest is the bony part of the skull that protrudes from the top near the back where jaw muscles attach. In addition, the teeth of dire wolves, especially the carnassials, the teeth in the middle of the jaw used for cutting, were much larger and more massive. The large, powerful body and jaws suggest that dire wolves were built to eat large prey animals. Their low, strong bodies would have allowed them to pull down and drag large animals, and their massive jaws would have crushed through bone. Fossil jaws from dire wolves show considerable wear on the crowns of the carnassials and molars, suggesting bone eating. A group of scientists estimate that a dire wolf could bite with a force 60 percent greater than that of a modern gray wolf. However, the dire wolf’s legs were not long or strong enough to enable them to chase fleet-footed prey, which probably limited them to slow-moving animals such as mammoths or giant ground sloths, and to carrion. Canine evolution is a complex and controversial topic, and paleontologists are still debating the origin of the dire wolf. It appears that it was derived from a North American lineage of wolves separated from the gray wolves in Eurasia. The dire wolf was not the ancestor of the gray wolf or vice versa; they were derived from separate canine lineages on different continents. Many scientists believe that the dire wolf evolved from South American wolves and then suddenly appeared in North America during the Pleistocene. There is also considerable debate as to when the dire wolf originated. Some scientists suggest that it first appeared 100,000 years ago, while others push the date back to 1.8 million years ago. Part of the problem with determining a reasonable date is that many other extinct canines have been found in the Americas from the same period, and several closely resemble the dire wolf. Scientists are not sure if they represent other canine species or primitive subspecies of the dire wolf So the size basically overlaps, this is a parity matchup, considering hyenas weigh around the 175 pound mark as well, however dire wolves likely got well over 200 pounds The weapon department goes to the Dire and even the gray wolf, the wolves have superior teeth and mouths overall I also heard that you have an account of a hyena losing a tug of war to a female leopard well smaller than it, amazing power! Total triceps as % of total forearm muscle weight: Cheetah: 15.8% Leopard: 13.3% Snow leopard: 14.7% Jaguar: 12% Cougar: 14.5% Lion: 14.7% Eurasian lynx: 16.2% Jungle cat: 16.6% Wolf: 17.2% African wild dog: 17.4% The Dire wolf is already much more robust and stronger than the gray wolf, and accordingly the gray wolf has stronger triceps than the leopard... the animal that can beat a hyena in a tug of war even when being a good deal smaller I can’t really compare durability but judging how robust each skeleton is I’m gonna assume these animals have about equal durability Edited by CanineCanis, Mar 11 2018, 04:06 AM.
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| Vita | Mar 11 2018, 04:46 AM Post #272 |
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Cave Canem
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There is no reputable source that suggests dire wolves were "well over 200lbs." I don't consider snippets from random websites reputable. Secondly, as far as weaponry goes we know both animals are capable of inflicting horrific damage, small differences in canine length is not the deciding factor. Grey wolves tend to have longer canines than hyenas but fall short not only in regards to overall skull/teeth robustness and durability, but in other areas as well. ![]() More of this study can be found here: http://carnivoraforum.com/single/?p=8501366&t=9328044 This correlates with the hyenas consumption of hard food items and its tendency to carry carcasses. Another user posted the difference in skull thickness when sliced in half a few posts above. There's another study I have to dig up that compares the stress of the skull between the two when biting. The wolf has an output that rivals the hyena, but it experiences more stress when performing the same task. Theoretically speaking, the hyena could bite even harder, but more importantly it could sustain that pressure more efficiently whereas the wolf would be close to mechanical failure (high stress on the plated skull and the bending of the crest). What is important is the potential to produce force. Which both appear to be similar judging from the skeletons. Between dire wolves and spotted hyena that is. The Grey wolf is a better match for the brown or striped hyena and should not be considered in the same tier as the spotted or dire. May I recommend learning how to compare the difference in skeleton robustness? It smashes your argument that dire wolves were a great deal anything over the Grey. Canids do tend to have a stronger tricep area partly due to their way of motion in support with their skulls, but beware how you use this information. The hyena's strength is more comparable to a leopard overall, but cats of that size have heavily muscled forelimbs that are used to manipulate prey, making whatever advantage canids or hyenas would have in that area (tricep attachment) mute. And hyenas typically over power small leopards, young males (save for the Tom's) and females. One account of a female getting the best of one is just deflecting at this point. Edited by Vita, Mar 11 2018, 05:07 AM.
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| Lightning | Mar 11 2018, 05:05 AM Post #273 |
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Omnivore
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Close fight. I don't know who wins but this wolf has seen bigger, meaner adversaries in his life, that's for sure. Edited by Lightning, Mar 11 2018, 05:05 AM.
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| CanineCanis | Mar 11 2018, 07:36 AM Post #274 |
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Herbivore
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@Vita Do you want another reply? I’ve lost some interest in this thread but I’ll keep going if you want |
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| Grazier | Mar 11 2018, 08:14 AM Post #275 |
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Omnivore
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I find it odd the dire wolf is automatically assumed to be superior to the grey wolf based on it having a skeleton/skull and estimated dimensions and weight identical to a domestic dog (volkodav/alabai) which a lot of people don't favour over a grey wolf. |
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| Ryo | Mar 11 2018, 08:40 AM Post #276 |
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Omnivore
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At parity, I would give a Gray Wolf some possible good chances more often than not, but that would depend on some specific circumstances. The Dire Wolf, according to the general saying on this forum, was only slightly more robust than a Gray Wolf (some claim closer to a Molosser however). Small changes in a skull side adn width can make the bite force a whole lot stronger as I've heard, and the Dire got a larger Sagittal Crest than the Gray as well. I assume that at parity, the bite would go to the Dire Wolf, and one can ask how important the stress factor is when 2 similar sized opponents are biting each other. I favor the Dire Wolf as well at parity, if the circumstances I am thinking of are logical. |
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| Grazier | Mar 11 2018, 08:51 AM Post #277 |
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Omnivore
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The reason I see grey wolf vs spotted hyena a contest is I imagine the wolf using its footwork and agility and cunning strategy to pick at the hyena over time and avoid its retaliating lunges. There's no question the hyena is more powerful and durable. The dire wolf is basically a canine spotted hyena. So I actually don't rule out a grey wolf beating a dire wolf, it again just like with the hyena could dance around the slower dumber dire wolf and try accumulating damage over time. Most likely it will do that for seconds before conceding to the burlier brute and leaving the scene. Spotted hyena vs dire wolf is more just a battle of burly brutes that seem pretty well matched. |
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| K9 Bite | Mar 11 2018, 09:37 AM Post #278 |
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Herbivore
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Cunning? How so? Just asking. I dont see how intelligence plays a significant factor in any of the interspefic fights on this forum. |
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| Grazier | Mar 11 2018, 09:53 AM Post #279 |
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Omnivore
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Well all I can say to that is "how odd". I struggle to think of a more important quality other than perhaps size. Its certainly much more important than tooth size. That's like judging human fighters by their knuckle size, rather than... I dunno what they're actually gonna do in the fight. |
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| Vita | Mar 11 2018, 10:08 AM Post #280 |
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Cave Canem
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That's a good point, but hyena are about as intelligent as wolves in general, seeing that they are also a pack animal with complex relationships. "Cunning," well, used in that context really isn't an advantage, both display the same caluated behavior when hunting and avoiding damage. I'd imagine their understanding of the lioness to hyena ratio when taking over kills requires some wit. Wolves are more nimble though.
Edited by Vita, Mar 11 2018, 10:11 AM.
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| Mauro20 | Mar 11 2018, 10:31 AM Post #281 |
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Badass
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I think intelligence is very rarely very important in these kinds of matches. Pigs are smarter than dogs, yet I assume you would favor a mastiff or something like that over a pig. Parrots are smarter than hawks and very few people would favor them over the bird of prey. Chimps are much smarter than leopards and are often killed by them. Humans often do very poorly when fighting similar-sized but much dumber animals. And so on. If we were talking about a wolf pack fighting a hyena clan, then maybe I could see your point, with teamwork being so important in these situations and all, but when individual animals are fighting their physical prowess is a lot more important than their intelligence. Also, what makes you think the wolf is smarter than a hyena? |
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| Grazier | Mar 11 2018, 10:49 AM Post #282 |
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Omnivore
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Hyenas seem to get mixed reviews, intelligence wise. There was talk a while back of them having ape-like team work and problem solving abilities as displayed in scientific tests. Then recently we had the study measuring the neurons in different carnivorans and hyenas were very low compared to canines. I don't know what to believe tbh, but they don't strike me as brain surgeons, or at least they seem to have a very odd brand of intelligence with some glaring blind spots. Awds occasionally will herd them like sheep and separate individuals from the group and assault said individual while the large group is kept at bay by a small number of dogs. Incidents like that (and I know, I also wish I was better at keeping track of my source material) make it hard for me to not see them as dumber than canines, when they're just blatantly tricked and manipulated so easily. As far as I know they're a fairly old primitive type of animal too which by all rights should probably be extinct but just inexplicably has held on in a few species. I feel like they're too ready to die a lot of the time, as though their survival instincts aren't as strong as newer species. This is one area improvements seem to have been made as new models of animal have come out over the millennia. As an extreme example jellyfish are like a billion years old and they just recklessly flub up onto the shore like morons and die hand over fist because they're a dumb ancient model of organism that had barely even evolved a will to exist. Less extreme you get sharks and fish that also seem to just happily die like idiots. Even getting into mammals you get foolish marsupials that seem to think jumping in front of a car is a reasonable idea, or even the opposum in america looks scary with its big teeth then when confronted by a humble skunk it just rolls over and dies like a clownish buffoon. Hyenas aren't as extreme as any of these examples, but I do sometimes see signs of weird idiocy where they stumble into a pride of lions and open their mouth and look around almost shrugging like "whatever" and just Darwin award themselves. I dunno... Edited by Grazier, Mar 11 2018, 10:52 AM.
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| WaffleKing | Mar 11 2018, 10:55 AM Post #283 |
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Heterotrophic Organism
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I think "smarter" is a rather broad term to use. Many would say no doubt that Chimpanzees are smarter than dogs. Yet, in certain areas dogs outperform chimps. Border collies for instance, have a memory and an ability to verbally understand, recognize, and respond to over 1000 nouns. This isn't just following commands, there is a border collie named "chaser" that can literally know the names of and differentiate from over 1000 objects, and respond verbally to them. Chimps just can't do that. Yet in some other areas, chimps drastically outperform dogs. I think it's a naive generalization to say that, say a pig is smarter than a dog. They are different. They are completely different animals, with completely different purposes, that think in completely different ways. It's always bothered me that do many people judge intelligence of canines by there ability to follow commands. Yes, a lab is better at obedience training than a huskey, but I don't think that makes it smarter, and vice versa. I've always respected the people that can actually notice and understand the subtle nuances of animals, and how they think, rather than saying things like "it's smarter because it obeyes me better" For instance, a wolf might intelligently be able to think in and plan ways to kill an animal that won't even cross the mind if most dogs. At the same time, certain dogs have mentally adapted to be smarter in certain areas than wolves. I don't think that makes either one smarter, I think they just have adapted to preform certain tasks with their own peak efficiency. I'd also like to point out "dogs" is a extreamly generalist term. For instance, there is an extream difference between the intelligence of that of a pug and that of a border collie. Edited by WaffleKing, Mar 11 2018, 10:57 AM.
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| Mauro20 | Mar 11 2018, 11:05 AM Post #284 |
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Badass
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Intelligence is in fact hard to measure, but I just used these generalizations as examples. I'm pretty confident these examples generally hold true, and are much more fair than using particularly smart individuals and comparing them to the averages of other species, like you did with border collies and chimps. You and I both know very few border collies will learn the meaning of anything close to that amount of words. If you're going to use the "geniuses" among border collies, then the fair thing to do would be to use a "genius" chimp as well, though I don't know what exactly would such a chimp be like. For what it's worth, Koko (a gorilla) is able to understand more than 1000 signs of a modified version of American Sign Language, and 2000 words of spoken English, and can use this knowledge in much more complex ways than Chaser. And it's hard to tell if she can do this because she's smarter than the average gorilla or just because people put a lot of work into teaching her that.
Edited by Mauro20, Mar 11 2018, 11:15 AM.
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| k9boy | Mar 11 2018, 11:22 AM Post #285 |
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Apex Predator
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The tricep weight has a bigger percentage in the total arm weight because the overall arm including forearm, paws and biceps are alot smaller on the wolf compared with the cougar, leopard etc. big cats like that are more in need of bicep and forearm strength, pulling muscles, as they are the ones used when holding on to large prey, pulling them in close for a bite, an ad holding them steady whilst they struggle, as seen below: and it would make sense for wolves to have lb for lb stronger triceps, as you can see they rely heavily on their tricep strength to tug backwards whilst latched on to large prey: so this would mean if both a wolf and a cougar/leopards forelimb were scaled to the same weight, the wolf would likely have the stronger triceps? I can believe this, but... cougar/leopard forelimbs are wayyy thicker then that of a wolf, undoubtedly alot heavier. Even a female cougar/leopard would have limbs bigger and heavier then a large male wolf. you'd need a huge weight advantage for the wolf for the limbs to weigh the same. Female cougar ![]() Male timber wolf (summer coat) ![]() so yes, a wolf has stronger triceps then a leopard/cougar, but only if it outweighs them significantly to even up the limb weight sorry to go majorly off topic Edited by k9boy, Mar 11 2018, 11:24 AM.
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