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Dire Wolf v Spotted Hyena
Topic Started: Jun 17 2012, 05:58 PM (37,516 Views)
Taipan
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Dire Wolf - Canis dirus
The Dire wolf (Canis dirus) is an extinct carnivorous mammal of the genus Canis, and was most common in North America and South America from the Irvingtonian stage to the Rancholabrean stage of the Pleistocene epoch living 1.80 Ma – 10,000 years ago, existing for approximately 1.79 million years. lthough it was closely related to the Gray Wolf and other sister species, Canis dirus was not the direct ancestor of any species known today. Unlike the Gray Wolf, which is of Eurasian origin, the Dire Wolf evolved on the North American continent, along with the Coyote. The Dire Wolf co-existed with the Gray Wolf in North America for about 100,000 years. The dire wolf was about the same size as the largest modern gray wolves (Canis lupus), which are the Yukon wolf and the northwestern wolf. C. d. guildayi weighed on average 60 kilograms (132 lb) and C. d. dirus was on average 68 kg (150 lb). Despite superficial similarities to the Gray Wolf, there were significant differences between the two species. The legs of the Dire Wolf were proportionally shorter and sturdier than those of the Gray Wolf, and its brain case was smaller than that of a similarly sized gray wolf. The Dire Wolf's teeth were similar to the Gray Wolf's, only slightly larger, pointing to a hypercarnivorous to mesocarnivorous activity. Paleontologist R.M. Nowak states the dietary characteristics are primarily carnivorous as well as partially omnivorous.

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Spotted Hyena - Crocuta crocuta
The spotted hyena (Crocuta crocuta), also known as the laughing hyena or tiger wolf, is a species of hyena native to Sub-Saharan Africa. It is listed as Least Concern by the IUCN on account of its widespread range and large numbers estimated at 10,000 individuals. The spotted hyena is the largest extant member of the Hyaenidae.[43] Adults measure 95.0—165.8 cm in body length, and have a shoulder height of 70.0-91.5 cm. Adult male spotted hyenas in the Serengeti weigh 40.5—55.0 kg (89—121 lb), while females weigh 44.5—63.9 kg (98—141 lb). Spotted hyenas in Zambia tend to be heavier, with males weighing on average 67.6 kg (149 lb), and females 69.2 kg (153 lb). Exceptionally large weights of 81.7 kg (180 lb) and 86 kg (190 lb) are known. It has been estimated that adult members of the now extinct Eurasian populations weighed 102 kg (225 lbs).

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werewolf2012
 
How about Spotted hyena vs Dire wolf?


Edited by Taipan, Oct 15 2017, 05:22 PM.
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Vivyx
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Felines, sharks, birds, arthropods
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Black Ice and Vita are back? What's up, guys?

(this is Catboy, btw. Used to be a stupid kid back in 2012-2014)
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CanineCanis
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Black Ice
Mar 12 2018, 10:21 AM
Ausar
Mar 12 2018, 10:17 AM
I just had to ask Black Ice, how do you feel nowadays about a dire wolf against a same-sized leopard or cougar?
About the same as I do with a Hyena vs either one. 50/50 though I give the DW slightly better chances than the Hyena of winning.

Honestly I think a DW/Hyena would edge out over a Cougar but stalemate a Leopard.
Why? I personally believe cougar>leopard
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Black Ice
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CanineCanis
Mar 12 2018, 12:30 PM
Black Ice
Mar 12 2018, 10:21 AM
Ausar
Mar 12 2018, 10:17 AM
I just had to ask Black Ice, how do you feel nowadays about a dire wolf against a same-sized leopard or cougar?
About the same as I do with a Hyena vs either one. 50/50 though I give the DW slightly better chances than the Hyena of winning.

Honestly I think a DW/Hyena would edge out over a Cougar but stalemate a Leopard.
Why? I personally believe cougar>leopard
The leopard has the bigger more robust skull which both animals use to kill other animals. They're extremely similar in all other fighting aspects so my case is the one with the bigger heads gonna win.
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CanineCanis
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Black Ice
Mar 12 2018, 12:53 PM
CanineCanis
Mar 12 2018, 12:30 PM
Black Ice
Mar 12 2018, 10:21 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Why? I personally believe cougar>leopard
The leopard has the bigger more robust skull which both animals use to kill other animals. They're extremely similar in all other fighting aspects so my case is the one with the bigger heads gonna win.
Doesn’t the cougar have more robust limbs?

I guess with a bigger head the leopard would fare better against a Dire wolf, but I would favor a cougar over a leopard more times then not
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Black Ice
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CanineCanis
Mar 12 2018, 12:56 PM
Black Ice
Mar 12 2018, 12:53 PM
CanineCanis
Mar 12 2018, 12:30 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
The leopard has the bigger more robust skull which both animals use to kill other animals. They're extremely similar in all other fighting aspects so my case is the one with the bigger heads gonna win.
Doesn’t the cougar have more robust limbs?

I guess with a bigger head the leopard would fare better against a Dire wolf, but I would favor a cougar over a leopard more times then not
They aren't going to be killing or even really harming each other with their limbs. The cougar has a negligible robustness advantage with the limbs but the Leopard has a noticeable larger head even if their bite force is similar.

Basically a bite from a Leopard is gonna cover more area than a Cougar bite for bite, so I'm going with the spotted cat to win.

Regardless this thread is Dire Wolf vs Spotted Hyena, not Leopard vs Cougar.
Edited by Black Ice, Mar 12 2018, 01:00 PM.
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CanineCanis
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Black Ice
Mar 12 2018, 12:59 PM
CanineCanis
Mar 12 2018, 12:56 PM
Black Ice
Mar 12 2018, 12:53 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Doesn’t the cougar have more robust limbs?

I guess with a bigger head the leopard would fare better against a Dire wolf, but I would favor a cougar over a leopard more times then not
They aren't going to be killing or even really harming each other with their limbs. The cougar has a negligible robustness advantage with the limbs but the Leopard has a noticeable larger head even if their bite force is similar.

Basically a bite from a Leopard is gonna cover more area than a Cougar bite for bite, so I'm going with the spotted cat to win.
Cats use their limbs to overpower their opponent, since the cougar has more robust limbs I’d assume it could overpower the leopard and kill the Spotted cat before vice versa

Anyways this isn’t the right topic to debate this so if you want to talk about this in the cougar Vs leopard thread I’d be glad to
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Ryo
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I am just hoping that Vod will join in on the party soon. All it takes is for him to see Black Ice comment (which holds more than just a bit of truth to it).

However.... With some of the old veterans back, perhaps someone worthy will finally take the risk of battling me in glorious combat. As I have stated on the Spotted Hyena vs Gray Wolf (parity) match up, I favor a Gray Wolf over a Spotted Hyena, while I favor no dog over the Hyena. The reason being the Wolfs skull biting abilities. I do not know if this has actually been debated, but I have yet to witness an argument against the Wolfs ability to skull bite the slower but much tankier, more durable Hyena.
Edited by Ryo, Mar 12 2018, 10:40 PM.
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Black Ice
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Ryo
Mar 12 2018, 10:39 PM
I am just hoping that Vod will join in on the party soon. All it takes is for him to see Black Ice comment (which holds more than just a bit of truth to it).

However.... With some of the old veterans back, perhaps someone worthy will finally take the risk of battling me in glorious combat. As I have stated on the Spotted Hyena vs Gray Wolf (parity) match up, I favor a Gray Wolf over a Spotted Hyena, while I favor no dog over the Hyena. The reason being the Wolfs skull biting abilities. I do not know if this has actually been debated, but I have yet to witness an argument against the Wolfs ability to skull bite the slower but much tankier, more durable Hyena.
I agree with you on that; however I'm told Vita kicked my ass in Wolf vs Hyena so :X .

I can't stand up to women in debates, they're unrivaled.
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Ryo
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Black Ice
Mar 12 2018, 11:09 PM
Ryo
Mar 12 2018, 10:39 PM
I am just hoping that Vod will join in on the party soon. All it takes is for him to see Black Ice comment (which holds more than just a bit of truth to it).

However.... With some of the old veterans back, perhaps someone worthy will finally take the risk of battling me in glorious combat. As I have stated on the Spotted Hyena vs Gray Wolf (parity) match up, I favor a Gray Wolf over a Spotted Hyena, while I favor no dog over the Hyena. The reason being the Wolfs skull biting abilities. I do not know if this has actually been debated, but I have yet to witness an argument against the Wolfs ability to skull bite the slower but much tankier, more durable Hyena.
I agree with you on that; however I'm told Vita kicked my ass in Wolf vs Hyena so :X .

I can't stand up to women in debates, they're unrivaled.
Well...... There has to be a first time for everything.... And I am honored to be the first in 8 years to achieve this goal.
Unrivaled.
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Vita
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Ryo
Mar 12 2018, 10:39 PM
The reason being the Wolfs skull biting abilities. I do not know if this has actually been debated, but I have yet to witness an argument against the Wolfs ability to skull bite the slower but much tankier, more durable Hyena.
Hyena aren't as vurnable to skull bites when compared to wolves. Their consumption of hard food items is the reason for this.

Quote:
 

Similarly, it has been argued that skull strain energy, a measure of the work done in deformation of an object in FEA simulations, is a suitable measure of functional efficiency [32]. This argument is based on the logic that biological objects (e.g. skulls) with maximum stiffness for a given volume of material (i.e. low strain energy during deformation) should be favored by selective processes that maximize functionality [32]. Skull strain energy is used as a second axis of function in this study. The skulls of species in bone-cracking lineages are expected to be selected for increased stiffness per amount of skull bone, in order to perform the intensive bone-cracking behavior which places large amounts of stress and strain on the skull.


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Source:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0065305#pone-0065305-g007

Unrelated, I'm surprised at how well the African wild dog performed. No doubt its domed skull shape in comparison with Canis. L had something to do with it.

This study did mention that they used a single dire wolf skull, but they hardly mentioned it beyond that. One can argue that with increased size increased durability goes along with it in most cases. Which is why I wanted to quote the following:

Quote:
 

Mechanical advantage by itself is a scale-free measure of force generation, but in fact a system with high MA and low absolute muscle force can generate the same resulting bite force as a system with low MA and large absolute bite force. Therefore, the disparate distributions of Dinocrocuta and Epicyon can in fact represent similar performing morphologies that converge along another axis of evolutionary change, namely body size. A large body size would allow Epicyon to generate bite forces required to crack bones to a comparable degree as smaller, more shape-adapted skulls of Crocuta and Borophagus. On the other hand, the large body size of Dinocrocuta would allow a smaller muscle input to generate sufficient bone-cracking bite forces, therefore not producing the high-SE predicted at its maximum capability.


Hyena can produce a high bite force with less effort compared to most canids, despite canids of comparable size being able produce similar forces, sometimes surpassing them.


Quote:
 
"Canine bite force esti-
mations based on the dry skull method suggest that
Canis lupus has a higher bite strength than Crocuta
crocuta
(Wroe et al., 2005). In that study, however, it
was also suggested that bite strength does not neces-
sarily imply bone-cracking, which might be more
closely associated with structural adaptations in
teeth and cranial bones
. The findings from the
present study suggest structural adaptation in the
cranium of the bone cracking Crocuta compared to
Canis for the scenarios tested. The high stress
observed in the dorsal cranium of Canis is in accor-
dance with the suggestion of Wroe et al. (2005) who
demonstrated that larger theoretical bite forces in
Canis are not necessarily realized because of cranial
structure constraints to bone-cracking, in addition to
any structural improvement in teeth.

An important point to be noted is that, given the
differences in cranial morphology and masticatory
muscle attachment sites, the skull of Canis required
the highest muscle input to produce the same biteforce compared to the other two models (see Appen-
dix, Table A1).(Dino crocuta and the spotted hyena)

The high input force is probably what
created the elevated stresses observed throughout the
Canis model. Furthermore, upon examining the
regions of highest stress in all three models, it was
found that the ends of the zygomatic arches generally
exhibit relatively high stress values
(Figs 2, 3). The
presence of these high stresses are also likely to be
partially attributed to muscle force action because the
downward pull of the masseter muscles would tend to
bend the arches in the ventro-medial direction.
Fur-
thermore, the models constructed in the present
study do not contain any sutures, which have been
shown to represent sites of high strain and may be
important in stress distribution across cranial bone


Dire wolves had no bone consuming speciality but were known bone eaters, more so than the modern Grey. They had the raw muscle power. (Epicyon was so massive it would have crushed bone regardless via raw power, therefore less stress energy.)

But by shape and size alone I have my doubts about wolves biting through a hyena's vault like skull. Animals aren't exactly known to bite until mechanical failure for the sake of argument.
Edited by Vita, Mar 13 2018, 02:49 AM.
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Black Ice
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If I'm not mistaken wolves don't actually bite the vault of the skull when they employ skull bites, if anything they aim for the nape more than the actual skull. Wouldn't seem smart for an animal to bite directly the hardest part of another animals head without armor piercing teeth.
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Ryo
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But would you expect a Dire Wolf to be unable to crush through the skull of Hyenas as well? If I am not mistaking, slight increases in skull size and width can make quite a difference.

I do not know if Dire Wolvers fought in a similar way to Gray Wolves, but even if they couldn't pierce the Hyenas skull (still unsure of it) going for the nose of the Hyena which I would assume a Gray Wolf tactic as well, could have the possible potential of filling the lungs with blood which could be very effective in a drawn out fight. That was atleast what I was told what happens when Wolves bites fighting dogs on the nose.

Another thing I must have clarified. People are talking about these 2 "outmuscling" each other, but in recent times on this forum, I have seen some people make a big deal out of the Dire Wolf not being much different from the Gray Wolf, barely a bit larger and more robust. Being only a "bit larger and buffer" would likely not even surpass our Molosser dogs, let alone the even bulkier Hyena.
If this is the case, I would still imagine the Dire Wolf to have a small height advantage due to the difference in bulk to make up for the mass, which could become useful in controlling another modstander. A Hyena has likely endured attacks superior to what a Dire Wolf could ever dish out, save for skull biting attacks.
Hyenas appear pretty slow at killing each other, but that is likely what happens when you set a tank to kill a tank, but I have yet to witness them being fast killers, so I am unsure of if the Hyena can actually main the Wolf enough before its face have been torn enough for it to become much more defenseless through out the fight, and that is if the Dire Wolf can't actually puncture the skull as its special Card.
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Vita
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Black Ice
Mar 13 2018, 03:00 AM
If I'm not mistaken wolves don't actually bite the vault of the skull when they employ skull bites, if anything they aim for the nape more than the actual skull. Wouldn't seem smart for an animal to bite directly the hardest part of another animals head without armor piercing teeth.
Of course. My whole point is there's no area in particular that dire wolf would be able to get through the Hyenas skull. Realistically, it'll probably tear through its throat if it gets that opening, or proceed to maul it to death. Heavy damage to the neck, flank and chest. Limbs would be a crucial target as well.
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Black Ice
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Ryo
Mar 13 2018, 03:13 AM
But would you expect a Dire Wolf to be unable to crush through the skull of Hyenas as well? If I am not mistaking, slight increases in skull size and width can make quite a difference.

I do not know if Dire Wolvers fought in a similar way to Gray Wolves, but even if they couldn't pierce the Hyenas skull (still unsure of it) going for the nose of the Hyena which I would assume a Gray Wolf tactic as well, could have the possible potential of filling the lungs with blood which could be very effective in a drawn out fight. That was atleast what I was told what happens when Wolves bites fighting dogs on the nose.

Another thing I must have clarified. People are talking about these 2 "outmuscling" each other, but in recent times on this forum, I have seen some people make a big deal out of the Dire Wolf not being much different from the Gray Wolf, barely a bit larger and more robust. Being only a "bit larger and buffer" would likely not even surpass our Molosser dogs, let alone the even bulkier Hyena.
If this is the case, I would still imagine the Dire Wolf to have a small height advantage due to the difference in bulk to make up for the mass, which could become useful in controlling another modstander. A Hyena has likely endured attacks superior to what a Dire Wolf could ever dish out, save for skull biting attacks.
Hyenas appear pretty slow at killing each other, but that is likely what happens when you set a tank to kill a tank, but I have yet to witness them being fast killers, so I am unsure of if the Hyena can actually main the Wolf enough before its face have been torn enough for it to become much more defenseless through out the fight, and that is if the Dire Wolf can't actually puncture the skull as its special Card.
No, I don't think a Dire Wolf could crush the skull of a Spotted Hyena (I don't think a Hyena can crush the skull of a Grey Wolf either at same sizes). I am inclined to agree with Vita these two would not being trying to bite through each other's skulls as that's highly inefficient.

As for your inquiry about people saying a DW is only a slightly more robust Grey Wolf, those people simply do not know what they're talking about to be honest and should be ignored.

To put it short, A Dire Wolf is basically a Grey Wolf on steroids. They had powerful builds to tackle powerful prey through endurance and brute strength. Grey Wolves sacrificed a bit of power in exchange for speed and agility to chase more fleet footed prey when the megafauna started to die out.
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CanineCanis
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@Vita That signature is insane

@BlackIce I can’t stand up to women neither in debates lol us guys aren’t good enough, by the way who said a Dire wolf is a slightly stronger gray wolf? A dire wolf is like the James Harrison version of a gray wolf’s

@Ryo I favor the wolf over the hyena at parity as well however you probably know that as I’ve stated it a lot already
Edited by CanineCanis, Mar 13 2018, 05:03 AM.
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