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Dire Wolf v Spotted Hyena
Topic Started: Jun 17 2012, 05:58 PM (37,515 Views)
Taipan
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Dire Wolf - Canis dirus
The Dire wolf (Canis dirus) is an extinct carnivorous mammal of the genus Canis, and was most common in North America and South America from the Irvingtonian stage to the Rancholabrean stage of the Pleistocene epoch living 1.80 Ma – 10,000 years ago, existing for approximately 1.79 million years. lthough it was closely related to the Gray Wolf and other sister species, Canis dirus was not the direct ancestor of any species known today. Unlike the Gray Wolf, which is of Eurasian origin, the Dire Wolf evolved on the North American continent, along with the Coyote. The Dire Wolf co-existed with the Gray Wolf in North America for about 100,000 years. The dire wolf was about the same size as the largest modern gray wolves (Canis lupus), which are the Yukon wolf and the northwestern wolf. C. d. guildayi weighed on average 60 kilograms (132 lb) and C. d. dirus was on average 68 kg (150 lb). Despite superficial similarities to the Gray Wolf, there were significant differences between the two species. The legs of the Dire Wolf were proportionally shorter and sturdier than those of the Gray Wolf, and its brain case was smaller than that of a similarly sized gray wolf. The Dire Wolf's teeth were similar to the Gray Wolf's, only slightly larger, pointing to a hypercarnivorous to mesocarnivorous activity. Paleontologist R.M. Nowak states the dietary characteristics are primarily carnivorous as well as partially omnivorous.

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Spotted Hyena - Crocuta crocuta
The spotted hyena (Crocuta crocuta), also known as the laughing hyena or tiger wolf, is a species of hyena native to Sub-Saharan Africa. It is listed as Least Concern by the IUCN on account of its widespread range and large numbers estimated at 10,000 individuals. The spotted hyena is the largest extant member of the Hyaenidae.[43] Adults measure 95.0—165.8 cm in body length, and have a shoulder height of 70.0-91.5 cm. Adult male spotted hyenas in the Serengeti weigh 40.5—55.0 kg (89—121 lb), while females weigh 44.5—63.9 kg (98—141 lb). Spotted hyenas in Zambia tend to be heavier, with males weighing on average 67.6 kg (149 lb), and females 69.2 kg (153 lb). Exceptionally large weights of 81.7 kg (180 lb) and 86 kg (190 lb) are known. It has been estimated that adult members of the now extinct Eurasian populations weighed 102 kg (225 lbs).

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werewolf2012
 
How about Spotted hyena vs Dire wolf?


Edited by Taipan, Oct 15 2017, 05:22 PM.
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Nergigante
Carnivore
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Has anyone proven how robust were dire wolves compared to grey wolves so far though? is it just me or does most comparisons made between the two don't really show much of a difference except skull size.
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Ryo
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I might actually change my mind on this. Is there any bets on how stocky the Dire Wolf would be compared to, say Molossers as LGDs and Mastiffs? I suspect that the Hyena would still have a bit of a slight durability advantage.
So the Hyena can handle more stress and might have a thicker, more muscular neck made for dragging heavy carcasses and maybe as a defense agaisnt predators (or maybe that was just a very convenient adaptation) while the Dire Wolf will have a bit better "armor piercing" if you may, with its visually looking sharper fangs.

Perhaps the best question left is how they compare as jaw grapplers.
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Black Ice
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BossLion
Mar 13 2018, 05:36 AM
Has anyone proven how robust were dire wolves compared to grey wolves so far though? is it just me or does most comparisons made between the two don't really show much of a difference except skull size.
In the same league as a Hyena & Leopard. There's a whole robusticity thread on it. They're noticeably more powerfully built than a Grey Wolf.
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CanineCanis
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BossLion
Mar 13 2018, 05:36 AM
Has anyone proven how robust were dire wolves compared to grey wolves so far though? is it just me or does most comparisons made between the two don't really show much of a difference except skull size.
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As for the skull

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From this thread http://carnivoraforum.com/topic/9336824

Dire Wolf Skull compared to Grey Wolf & Coyote[/size]

Quote:

According to the most recent study I posted about dire wolf size, these wolves (both sexes) averaged 132 lbs. I would assume good sized males would then average at least ~ 140-150 lbs. The dire wolves in eastern North America were even larger, and averaged (both sexes) 150 lbs. I'd assume good-sized males weighed at least ~ 160-170 lbs. Unfortunately, I don't know their pack size, but suspect it may have been smaller since they may have lived in more forested regions.

I think dire wolf's size/ecological niche can be seen by comparing cranial data. For example, below are measurements taken from the smaller Rancho Labrean dire wolf, grey wolves and coyotes.

http://books.google.com/books?id=WsTIPYs1KeEC&pg=PA78&dq=dire+wolf+quaternary&sig=3kbWP9YHo6iRVSf64-3isfD7dgU#PPA79,M1

Page 79

Skull Length

Dire Wolf: 29.5 CM

Gray Wolf: 25.1 CM

Coyote: 20.6 CM

Upper Carnassial Length

Dire Wolf: 3.175 CM

Gray Wolf: 2.619 CM

Coyote: 2.105 CM

The dire wolf's skull was 1.18 times longer than the gray wolf's and the gray wolf's was 1.22 times longer than the coyote's. The dire wolf's upper carnassial teeth were 1.21 times longer than the grey wolf's and the grey wolf's was 1.24 times longer. So, basically the dire wolf's cranial traits were roughly the same as to the gray wolf as the gray wolf was to the coyote.

The author of the book notes that upper carnassial length is very important for canids as it impacts their ability to hold and wound/disembowel prey.[/size]

Here’s a video showing comparisons

most bones weren’t longer for the Dire, but much thicker
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Ryo
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So do we have any guesses on if the Dire Wolf would actually be more robust than, say a LGD as a Kangal or CO, or certain more modern Mastiff dogs?
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CanineCanis
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Ryo
Mar 13 2018, 06:11 AM
So do we have any guesses on if the Dire Wolf would actually be more robust than, say a LGD as a Kangal or CO, or certain more modern Mastiff dogs?
I haven’t seen any comparisons between them so I can’t provide anything for that
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Vita
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BossLion
Mar 13 2018, 05:36 AM
Has anyone proven how robust were dire wolves compared to grey wolves so far though? is it just me or does most comparisons made between the two don't really show much of a difference except skull size.


Quote:
 
Dire wolf vs Gray wolf comparison (dire wolf is the black one while gray wolf is the white one)

Skull comparison
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Note, Dire wolf skull is only slightly longer, but it is SIGNIFICANTLY wider, the snout is wider, the cranium is wider, the zygomatic arch is much wider. Indicating for much bigger jaw muscles
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Note, Dire wolf has more developed sagittal crest and wider temporal fossa => larger jaw muscles. Larger teeth (canine, premolars, carnassials)
Mandible comparison
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Larger teeth

Humerus comparison
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Dire wolf humerus is also only slightly longer but it is significantly thicker with more space for muscles to attach.

Ulna comparison
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The ulna is much thicker as well
Edited by Vita, Mar 13 2018, 06:17 AM.
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CanineCanis
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Vita
Mar 13 2018, 06:16 AM
BossLion
Mar 13 2018, 05:36 AM
Has anyone proven how robust were dire wolves compared to grey wolves so far though? is it just me or does most comparisons made between the two don't really show much of a difference except skull size.


Quote:
 
Dire wolf vs Gray wolf comparison (dire wolf is the black one while gray wolf is the white one)

Skull comparison
Posted Image
Note, Dire wolf skull is only slightly longer, but it is SIGNIFICANTLY wider, the snout is wider, the cranium is wider, the zygomatic arch is much wider. Indicating for much bigger jaw muscles
Posted Image
Note, Dire wolf has more developed sagittal crest and wider temporal fossa => larger jaw muscles. Larger teeth (canine, premolars, carnassials)
Mandible comparison
Posted Image
Larger teeth

Humerus comparison
Posted Image
Posted Image
Dire wolf humerus is also only slightly longer but it is significantly thicker with more space for muscles to attach.

Ulna comparison
Posted Image
The ulna is much thicker as well
That’s basically my comparison except without the video

Anyways it’s safe to say a Dire wolf is the James Harrison to gray wolves, they were likely much more powerful
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Taipan
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Ryo
Mar 13 2018, 06:11 AM
So do we have any guesses on if the Dire Wolf would actually be more robust than, say a LGD as a Kangal or CO, or certain more modern Mastiff dogs?


Think reverse. We know that the Dire Wolf was actually more robust than a Grey Wolf. The one comparative study of bone mineral density (BMD) between Wolf and Domestic Dog, clearly favoured the wolf. ie. the bones/skeletal structure of a domestic dog is more fragile, and likely to fracture under stress than that of a wolf. I think the Dire Wolf would clearly exceed a Mastiff or LGD on that measure .
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WaffleKing
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Taipan
Mar 13 2018, 09:16 PM
Ryo
Mar 13 2018, 06:11 AM
So do we have any guesses on if the Dire Wolf would actually be more robust than, say a LGD as a Kangal or CO, or certain more modern Mastiff dogs?


Think reverse. We know that the Dire Wolf was actually more robust than a Grey Wolf. The one comparative study of bone mineral density (BMD) between Wolf and Domestic Dog, clearly favoured the wolf. ie. the bones/skeletal structure of a domestic dog is more fragile, and likely to fracture under stress than that of a wolf. I think the Dire Wolf would clearly exceed a Mastiff or LGD on that measure .
Do you know what dogs they used for the study? Do you think you could show me a link to it so I can see it myself?

I'm kinda curious.
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Vodmeister
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Black Ice
Mar 12 2018, 10:16 AM
Vita
Mar 12 2018, 09:04 AM
Black Ice
Mar 12 2018, 04:20 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepPosted Image
Post something stupid about Saber cats so Vod can show up like

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He won't return cause he knows saber cats are trash.

Shots fired.

Come back and show yourself you coward realmad

Black Ice
Mar 12 2018, 12:59 PM
They aren't going to be killing or even really harming each other with their limbs. The cougar has a negligible robustness advantage with the limbs but the Leopard has a noticeable larger head even if their bite force is similar.

When you look argument at this from a general perspective (limbs don’t harm much, the bite is more important), this can easily be used as an argument to why big cats > bears at size parity.
Edited by Vodmeister, Apr 2 2018, 06:04 AM.
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Ryo
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I have been sitting here, hoping that comment wouldn't go unnoticed by Vod haha!
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Lightning
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Vodmeister
Apr 2 2018, 05:56 AM
limbs don’t harm much, the bite is more important), this can easily be used as an argument to why big cats > bears at size parity.
Yeah a big cat is clearly superior to a bear at equal weights.

Not only does the big cat have a superior bite but it is also more agile, more aggressive and explosive in its attacks and regularly kills animals much larger than itself while the bear rarely kills anything other than insects and salmon.

A bear would need a good size advantage to defeat a big cat. A size advantage of around 50% or so.
Edited by Lightning, Apr 2 2018, 11:32 AM.
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Grazier
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They don't harm each other with their limbs, however their limbs are required to establish control and subdue before any precision lethal bites can be applied. Therefore limb robusticity in cat vs cat fights is more significant than skull size.

I have no idea what this has to do with dire wolves and hyenas.
Edited by Grazier, Apr 2 2018, 08:07 AM.
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Black Ice
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Vodmeister
Apr 2 2018, 05:56 AM
Black Ice
Mar 12 2018, 10:16 AM
Vita
Mar 12 2018, 09:04 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepPosted ImagePosted Image
He won't return cause he knows saber cats are trash.

Shots fired.

Come back and show yourself you coward realmad

Black Ice
Mar 12 2018, 12:59 PM
They aren't going to be killing or even really harming each other with their limbs. The cougar has a negligible robustness advantage with the limbs but the Leopard has a noticeable larger head even if their bite force is similar.

When you look argument at this from a general perspective (limbs don’t harm much, the bite is more important), this can easily be used as an argument to why big cats > bears at size parity.
Bear vs Cat was never about the bear having the offensive advantage. It was basically always could the cat kill the bear or could to bear just tank whatever damage it took till it killed the cat.

That and the bears the clearly better grappler which counteracts the bite issue which doesn't exist in cat vs cat.
Hash Slinging Slasher
Apr 2 2018, 06:25 AM
Vodmeister
Apr 2 2018, 05:56 AM
limbs don’t harm much, the bite is more important), this can easily be used as an argument to why big cats > bears at size parity.
Yeah a big cat is clearly superior to a bear at equal weights.

Not only does the big cat have a superior bite but it is also more agile, more aggressive and explosive in its attacks and regularly kills animals much larger than itself while the bear rarely kills anything other than insects and salmon.

A bear would need a good size advantage to defeat a big cat. A size advantage of around 50% or so.
Half of what you said is completely irrelevant when a cat fights a bear.
Edited by Black Ice, Apr 2 2018, 11:38 AM.
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