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The truth about brown bear predation by siberian tigers.; FINALLY, THE END OF THE DISCUSSION!
Topic Started: Jul 22 2012, 06:58 AM (20,203 Views)
AlphaWolf
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The male Amur tiger will predate Asiatic black bears and sub adult and female brown bears. According to telemetry data on tigers from 1992-2003, half the attacks on brown bears occur during hibernation but no males were killed despite their vulnerable state of hibernation.. According to former Russian biologist S.P. Kucherenko & early Naturalist N.A. Baikov tigers will only attack bears of similar or smaller size which translates to female and sub adult bears, not the larger male brown bear.
There has been no record of male brown bears killed by tigers but there are records of male Amur tigers killed by brown bears & some of them were cannibalized.
According to Russian biologists I.V. Seryodkin, N.A. Raikov, & Park Manager G.F. Gorokhov, adult Usurri female brown bear are not easy prey for dominant male Amur tigers either - some of the larger female brown bears have inflicted severe injury to the victorious but bloodied tiger.
Adult male Far Eastern brown bears often use and also usurp Amur tiger carrion which sometimes include multiple tigers in the form a mother tiger and her 2-3 year old large adult size offspring.
SO THE ANSWER IS, tigers may kill adult males bears while hibernating or via ambush, but on face-to-face encounters, a male brown bear (specially the large far eastern brown bear) could kill even the largest siberian tiger.....................................................................
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Black Ice
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THANK YOU lets see cat fans SUCK ON THAT!!!!!
A tiger is not killing a MALE BEAR OF EQUAL OR GREATER SIZE FACE TO FACE
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Vodmeister
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Bear fan biased much? lol

From "Mammals of the Soviet Union By Vladimir Georgievich Geptner, A. A. Nasimovich, Andreĭ Grigorʹevich"
"Early in May, 1951 on the bank of Tatibe River(Iman tributary), a bear was found(body lengh 158 cm, weight 170kg), which had obviously been mauled by tigress"
Presuming tigress weigh anywhere between 130-150Kg, It managed to kill 170 Kg Bear. This tells Tigers are capable of killing bears larger than itself.

Yes, a face-off between a 230 kg Tiger and Brown Bear would just be an up-scaled version of this, with the Tiger perhaps being less disadvantaged because it wouldn't have such a size deficiency. Any Tiger can kill a Bear his own size.

About the myth of Brown Bears usurping kills on Tigers:

Posted Image

Why are Bears so overrated when pitted against Cats?
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Vodmeister
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AlphaWolf
Jul 22 2012, 06:58 AM
There has been no record of male brown bears killed by tigers but there are records of male Amur tigers killed by brown bears & some of them were cannibalized.
According to Russian biologists I.V. Seryodkin, N.A. Raikov, & Park Manager G.F. Gorokhov, adult Usurri female brown bear are not easy prey for dominant male Amur tigers either - some of the larger female brown bears have inflicted severe injury to the victorious but bloodied tiger.
There are no records of adult male Amur Tigers killed by Brown Bears. Provide me with one reliable record.

Dale, the Tiger who killed four Brown Bears and one Himalayan Bear, was also never seriously injured once. Only once he suffered minor cuts and bruises.

In the 44 known tiger/brown bear fights 50% ended in bear’s death, 27.3% - in tiger’s death, 22.7% - in a draw."
http://www.carnivoraforum...ex....ay&thread=7940
Siberian Tigers come out on top against Bears more often than vice versa, despite the Ussuri Brown Bear being over 100 lbs heavier on average. That itself says a lot about Bear vs Big Cat conflicts.

Here's an article stating Bear's generally avoid Tigers and run away perpendicular to their trail when they do:
http://tigers.ru/books/kaplanov/tigr_en.html

"In January 1941, I encountered the prints of a very large brown bear near the mouth of the Ta-Kunzha River, a tributary of the Kema River; this animal, which had accidentally come across a tiger family on the trail, abandoned this path at a gallop.š At another site, he came across the track of a male tiger and also turned away from the tiger's track."

Here's an report stating that Bears tend to contest female Tiger kill's only and avoid male Tigers.
http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/jpg/54216f6ba0c873756fff4db0d61d4d74f2c288bc_r.jpg

I find it amazing how underrated Tigers are in this face-off. And in a fight between a 500 lbs Tiger and 500 lbs Bear, I'm sure the Tiger would win. However, the size advantage makes me question.
Edited by Vodmeister, Jul 24 2012, 01:59 AM.
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kuri
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FINALLY, THE END OF THE DISCUSSION!

lol
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k9boy
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BLack ice, why do you hate cats so much? Did you get scratched by one as a kid?

Thanks for the info vodmiester.
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firefly
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People keep posting old data that was endless times discussed already...
We are moving on circles and circles...

It´s tigers usually whom choose whom to fight and go for the conflict, not bears which are slower and less carnivore...
So it´s easy picking, to choose smaller bear cubs, hibernating bears or smaller females. And many times by ambush.
That isn´t meant to be impressive, but effective and with less risks.
Not for tiger/bear fans, but for scientists, it´s interesting data.

Tiger, called Dale only killed bears smaller than himself.
Only one was close to his size, but still smaller and it was a female bear.

And that finding of 170 kgs bear killed by tiger ( but with only 158 cm of lenght) tell us much about how really big that bear was... Maybe a fat bear cub, or a very young bear.

Sometime ago this was posted on carnivora: «Well this is from Russia, a study examining mortality of Amur Tigers since the 1970's. As for male tigers 2 relate to 'fights with brown bears' - one directly & one indirectly.

In 1972 at Komissarovka Pogranichny, a male adult tiger was "killed by bear".

In 1981 at Novo-Vladimirovka, Spassky, an adult male tiger was shot dead after being provoked and attack on hunters; previously it had "been wounded by brown bear " - the" left front paw's wrist had been snapped through, joint pouch torn"
It was 168kg when weighed after death. »

Honestly I question how healthy it were these 2 tiger adult males and how these fights happened.
Especially for the first case.




And yes, bears disput tiger kills ( even some big black bears were reported doing it), and that´s an absurd comment: « lest it become an tiger diet item»... That all depends on how big the brown bear is, nothing more...Because if he´s challenging the tiger or other bear, he isn´t really afraid.
It was reported that tigers avoid areas, on which brown bears are awaking from hibernation, because bears are more willing ( and sometimes more agressive) to usurp tiger kills.

And the fact is that tigers weren´t reported to kill amur adult male brown bears ( these aren´t Kamchatkan/Kodiak sized that´s for sure).
That was summarized at chapter 19, on a relatively recent Siberian Tiger project publication.

Regarding behavior because of other animal presence ( tracking, visual contact, etc...), I wonder if this was forgotten:

«Once during tracking we also noted the following fact: a tiger retreated, not attempting to hunt a large male brown bear in its den.љ The bear had set himself up for the winter in a small depression that he had dug near a fallen, broken-off shrub (Fig. 33), and the bear was quite visible. The tiger, having encountered the bear by chance, abruptly turned around at a distance of more than 25 m from this place and walked in the opposite direction by following his own old tracks. »


And yes, amur brown bears usually avoid to disput carcasses with big tiger males ( that´s absolutely normal) and also tigers don´t hunt and avoid contact with big amur male brown bears. That´s also pretty normal.
Seemingly both species kill the sick, weak and small of each other.
Natural selection at it´s best.

Edited by firefly, Jul 24 2012, 09:17 AM.
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Black Ice
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vodmeister
Jul 24 2012, 01:52 AM
AlphaWolf
Jul 22 2012, 06:58 AM
There has been no record of male brown bears killed by tigers but there are records of male Amur tigers killed by brown bears & some of them were cannibalized.
According to Russian biologists I.V. Seryodkin, N.A. Raikov, & Park Manager G.F. Gorokhov, adult Usurri female brown bear are not easy prey for dominant male Amur tigers either - some of the larger female brown bears have inflicted severe injury to the victorious but bloodied tiger.
There are no records of adult male Amur Tigers killed by Brown Bears. Provide me with one reliable record.

Dale, the Tiger who killed four Brown Bears and one Himalayan Bear, was also never seriously injured once. Only once he suffered minor cuts and bruises.

In the 44 known tiger/brown bear fights 50% ended in bear’s death, 27.3% - in tiger’s death, 22.7% - in a draw."
http://www.carnivoraforum...ex....ay&thread=7940
Siberian Tigers come out on top against Bears more often than vice versa, despite the Ussuri Brown Bear being over 100 lbs heavier on average. That itself says a lot about Bear vs Big Cat conflicts.

Here's an article stating Bear's generally avoid Tigers and run away perpendicular to their trail when they do:
http://tigers.ru/books/kaplanov/tigr_en.html

"In January 1941, I encountered the prints of a very large brown bear near the mouth of the Ta-Kunzha River, a tributary of the Kema River; this animal, which had accidentally come across a tiger family on the trail, abandoned this path at a gallop.š At another site, he came across the track of a male tiger and also turned away from the tiger's track."

Here's an report stating that Bears tend to contest female Tiger kill's only and avoid male Tigers.
http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/jpg/54216f6ba0c873756fff4db0d61d4d74f2c288bc_r.jpg

I find it amazing how underrated Tigers are in this face-off. And in a fight between a 500 lbs Tiger and 500 lbs Bear, I'm sure the Tiger would win. However, the size advantage makes me question.
Cat fan much lol first off female bears have killed 500lb tigers read it and cry cat fan
why do you keep using that incorrect data lol? You seriously think im gonna believe something that doesnt even state the health gender etc of the bears?someones in denial lol.
Take the polar bear lion account. A underweight polar bear managed to severely wound a healthy male lion and it was underweight and suffering from heat exhaustion. Lol whos biased now?
You post records of cats killing brown bears by ambush or attacking weak ass sloth or black ones lol your useless. If a female brownie can kill a 500lb tiger. A male is overkill.
You have provided NO accounts of tigers killing healthy male brown bears face to face. But I showed even a female brownie can kill a 500lb male tiger. Yet im the bear fan?yea right I told you several times I show bias to neither unlike you buddy.a underweight polar bear suffering from overheating managed to severly wound a healthy lion. A female brownie kills a 500lb tiger. Sloth bear fends off 2 tigers in rapid succesion. And you call me biased? Lol you show vague records of tigers killing unspecified bears lol. Bet not one was male face to face.
Say I have a prob with cats all you want. But the fact is. male brown and polar bears beat cats.period
P.s. That incorrect link that you heavily rely on.no longer works.
Get it straight cat fan. Me and firefly and even ursus debunked your so called "data"
Now this duscussion ends too bad for you and kuri lol.
strike one
http://www.wcsrussia.org/AboutUs/NewsArchive/tabid/2041/ID/98/language/en-US/OUR-LOSS.aspx
Strike two
http://sixote-alin.ru/articles/tab_eng.html
Strike 3
http://carnivoraforum.com/topic/9342882/2/#new
Strike 4
http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/5945/section43amurtigermorta.png
Strike five
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g62/TigerQuoll/14f54bde.jpg
Strike 6 3 tigers died by wounds they got trying to fight 3 different bears. Mix of both genders on each side.bears won all 3
http://sixote-alin.ru/articles/nickl_e.html
strike 7 the best account yet lol
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=71XFh8zZwT8C&dat=19421213&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
I got plenty more buddy. All of these fights were head on...unlike yours. As bears cant ambush cats lol
1 more thing I dont know why you keep saying cats have more adv. Over bears when lion claws AND ursus clearly voided all your so called "data"here
http://carnivoraforum.com/topic/9380132/11/
You buddy are in denial
Edited by Black Ice, Jul 26 2012, 05:04 PM.
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Black Ice
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Anymore cat guys want a go? O got sloth bears fending off 2 tigers and more brown bear kills cat accounts if your interested?
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firefly
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That sloth bear, did chased away a pair of bengal tigers, right?

I think that tigers prevail over sloth bears, maybe they were just not interested in fighting as sloth bears can also be painfull to fight, especially if we consider big males or very agressive decently big females. But anyway, in a plain fair fight, gender vs the same gender, I would say that tigers have the best of it.

Regarding brown bears, the outcome is different, especially if we consider the populations with the biggest animals.

Which brown bear sow did killed 500 lbs tiger? That was a captivity account?
Edited by firefly, Jul 26 2012, 02:30 PM.
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firefly
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I don´t know nothing about that account of a brown bear female killing a 500 lbs tiger.
Can you post it, here, please?
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kuri
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pound for pound, the tiger would win, but a bear is usually bigger
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Black Ice
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Wrong a female bear killed a 500lb tiger
Thats a parity fight there
Bears beat cats at parity.
Take the underweight and heat exhausted polar bear lion fight. A healthy lion severely and I mean SEVERELY wounded by a sickly underweight heat exhausted bear. A female brownie which avg. 250~500lbs kills a 500lb tiger.
What does that imply about face on fights between bears and cats?
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Black Ice
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Anyone else want to be disproven?
@firefly its strike 7 of my post
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kuri
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@starkiller

your prove is not a killer-prove, we have too much different reports!
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