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I'm skeptical about the weight of amphicoelias
Topic Started: Jul 31 2012, 09:02 AM (13,572 Views)
Godzillasaurus
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Though amphicoelias was very large, the fact that it was a diplodocid is making me skeptical about its weight. Diplodocids were very slender and lightly built for sauropod standards, being longer, though lighter than brachiosaurs and titanosaurs. Most of the candidates for the "world's largest dinosaur" are dinosaurs like Argentinosaurus, puertasaurus, and bruhathkaysaurus, all of which were titanosaurs. Amphicoelias is another candidate. However, it was a diplodocid. When you look at size comparisons with other sauropods, it looks like a human with a bunch of mice surrounding it. IT LOOKS FRICKIN HUGE! Another large diplodocid, supersaurus, weighed in at only 35-40 tons. Amphicoelias was estimated to have weighed a whopping 122 tons! That is assuming the proportions were correct. Something isn't right here. It doesn't make sense that the diplodocids, which were slender and lightly-built for sauropod standards, would have the world's heaviest dinosaur (other than bruhathkaysaurus) on their side. Amphicoelias makes titanosaurs look like wimps. That is, if it wasn't much smaller, and/or if it even existed.
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theropod
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Quote:
 
Jurassic sauropods have virtually no competitors, but Cretaceous sauropods face heavy competition from ornithopods. The abundance of huge sauropods in the Jurassic would force theropods to evolve larger sizes, which causes the sauropods to grow even larger to avoid predation, thus causing an evolutionary size growth loop in the Jurassic.
Yes, during the jurassic they had their peak, but that doesn´t mean that they couldnd have attained the smae size later. In the sourthern hemispere they still had few compeditors, and maybe competitional pressure and new vegetation even forced then to become larger
Bout the theropods, the same happens in every period, tough I agree that the jurassic ones probably grew exceptionally large due to the sheer ABUNDANCE of sauropods all over the world.
Quote:
 

Also, the low-nutrient food in the Jurassic period necessitated a larger digestive tract, so the sauropods that lived in that time needed to grow larger to accommodate a larger digestive system. The Cretaceous period did not necessitate such digestive systems.
I think the new plants of the cretaceous mainly were exploited by ornithopods, sauropods kept feeding on low nutrition-plants, which smaller animals had a hard time to digest. in order to be more efficient and keep their nicht, they grew even larger.
Quote:
 

Most Jurassic theropods hunted in packs, which needed even larger size to deter or beat them.
Who says the cretaceous ones didn´t?
Quote:
 

Many Cretaceous sauropods had armor, therefore not needing to be so large, but Jurassic sauropods did not, so they needed greater size to compensate.

A few had armour, but that appearantly didn´t keep others from growing veeery large.

Just look at this:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_u6CUqDWU5nw/S5VdzJHzGHI/AAAAAAAAAmY/hGfH5yTKfkI/s1600/supersauropodverts1_07.gif
Puertasaurus is definitly huge, and definitely not smaller than Amphicoelias in terms of weight, not to mention the uncertainity about Amphicoelias´ existence and size.
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theropod
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Jinfengopteryx
Aug 1 2012, 06:47 PM
brolyeuphyfusion
Aug 1 2012, 06:38 PM
Jurassic sauropods have virtually no competitors, but Cretaceous sauropods face heavy competition from ornithopods. The abundance of huge sauropods in the Jurassic would force theropods to evolve larger sizes, which causes the sauropods to grow even larger to avoid predation, thus causing an evolutionary size growth loop in the Jurassic.
Actually, in the cretaceous of the northern hemisphere, Sauropods had hard competition, but in the southern one, they were the dominant herbivores. There the enemys weren't harder, than those in the jurassic.

brolyeuphyfusion
 
Also, the low-nutrient food in the Jurassic period necessitated a larger digestive tract, so the sauropods that lived in that time needed to grow larger to accommodate a larger digestive system. The Cretaceous period did not necessitate such digestive systems.


Seems like this new plants, mainly were on the northern hemisphere(grass, modern trees, flowers).

brolyeuphyfusion
 
Most Jurassic theropods hunted in packs, which needed even larger size to deter or beat them.


According to Planet Dinosaur, we have evidence that Mapusaurus hunted in packs.

Have we evidence that Jurassic Theropods rather hunted in packs?

brolyeuphyfusion
 
Many Cretaceous sauropods had armor, therefore not needing to be so large, but Jurassic sauropods did not, so they needed greater size to compensate.


Not many. Such an armour is only evidenced in Saltasaurus(who's quite small), not in Puertasaurus or Argentinosaurus.
We have...let´s call it good indication. just look at how many allosaurs were found together. And no theropods can´t bring down a large sauropod on their own, therefore all theropods that hunted really big sauropods must have somehow cooperated as a group.

Edited by theropod, Aug 1 2012, 07:10 PM.
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Jinfengopteryx
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theropod
Aug 1 2012, 07:10 PM
Jinfengopteryx
Aug 1 2012, 06:47 PM
brolyeuphyfusion
Aug 1 2012, 06:38 PM
Jurassic sauropods have virtually no competitors, but Cretaceous sauropods face heavy competition from ornithopods. The abundance of huge sauropods in the Jurassic would force theropods to evolve larger sizes, which causes the sauropods to grow even larger to avoid predation, thus causing an evolutionary size growth loop in the Jurassic.
Actually, in the cretaceous of the northern hemisphere, Sauropods had hard competition, but in the southern one, they were the dominant herbivores. There the enemys weren't harder, than those in the jurassic.

brolyeuphyfusion
 
Also, the low-nutrient food in the Jurassic period necessitated a larger digestive tract, so the sauropods that lived in that time needed to grow larger to accommodate a larger digestive system. The Cretaceous period did not necessitate such digestive systems.


Seems like this new plants, mainly were on the northern hemisphere(grass, modern trees, flowers).

brolyeuphyfusion
 
Most Jurassic theropods hunted in packs, which needed even larger size to deter or beat them.


According to Planet Dinosaur, we have evidence that Mapusaurus hunted in packs.

Have we evidence that Jurassic Theropods rather hunted in packs?

brolyeuphyfusion
 
Many Cretaceous sauropods had armor, therefore not needing to be so large, but Jurassic sauropods did not, so they needed greater size to compensate.


Not many. Such an armour is only evidenced in Saltasaurus(who's quite small), not in Puertasaurus or Argentinosaurus.
We have...let´s call it good indication. just look at how many allosaurs were found together. And no theropods can´t bring down a large sauropod on their own, therefore all theropods that hunted really big sauropods must have somehow cooperated as a group.

I asked for evidence that shows that Jurassic ones rather hunted in packs, so debunking that those in the Cretaceous hunted in packs.
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theropod
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if they wanted to hunt sauropdos, they all must have hunted in packs, it´s as easy as that. it is not logical to asume that only the theropods from a certain time did so.
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Godzillasaurus
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brolyeuphyfusion
Aug 1 2012, 04:04 PM
Godzillaman
Aug 1 2012, 01:28 AM
Do you guys think that, knowing the new size estimates, animals like puertasaurus and argentinosaurus grew heavier than amphicoelias?

http://paleoking.blogspot.com/2010/03/forgotten-giants-1-puertasaurus.html
Paleo King says that Puertasaurus has a mass of 110 tonnes, so the link you posted, does not support your side, Godzillaman.
Well he clearly stated that puertasaurus was a much more heavily-built animal. I'm sorry, but puertasaurus might have been heavier than amphicoelias.
Edited by Godzillasaurus, Jan 21 2013, 12:55 AM.
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Godzillasaurus
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If the size estimates were right though, amphicoelias probably was the second or third largest dinosaur of all time.
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Godzillasaurus
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theropod
Aug 1 2012, 07:07 PM
Quote:
 
Jurassic sauropods have virtually no competitors, but Cretaceous sauropods face heavy competition from ornithopods. The abundance of huge sauropods in the Jurassic would force theropods to evolve larger sizes, which causes the sauropods to grow even larger to avoid predation, thus causing an evolutionary size growth loop in the Jurassic.
Yes, during the jurassic they had their peak, but that doesn´t mean that they couldnd have attained the smae size later. In the sourthern hemispere they still had few compeditors, and maybe competitional pressure and new vegetation even forced then to become larger
Bout the theropods, the same happens in every period, tough I agree that the jurassic ones probably grew exceptionally large due to the sheer ABUNDANCE of sauropods all over the world.
Quote:
 

Also, the low-nutrient food in the Jurassic period necessitated a larger digestive tract, so the sauropods that lived in that time needed to grow larger to accommodate a larger digestive system. The Cretaceous period did not necessitate such digestive systems.
I think the new plants of the cretaceous mainly were exploited by ornithopods, sauropods kept feeding on low nutrition-plants, which smaller animals had a hard time to digest. in order to be more efficient and keep their nicht, they grew even larger.
Quote:
 

Most Jurassic theropods hunted in packs, which needed even larger size to deter or beat them.
Who says the cretaceous ones didn´t?
Quote:
 

Many Cretaceous sauropods had armor, therefore not needing to be so large, but Jurassic sauropods did not, so they needed greater size to compensate.

A few had armour, but that appearantly didn´t keep others from growing veeery large.

Just look at this:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_u6CUqDWU5nw/S5VdzJHzGHI/AAAAAAAAAmY/hGfH5yTKfkI/s1600/supersauropodverts1_07.gif
Puertasaurus is definitly huge, and definitely not smaller than Amphicoelias in terms of weight, not to mention the uncertainity about Amphicoelias´ existence and size.
I think this proves that puertasaurus was the largest dinosaur. That is, if bruhathkaysaurus didn't exist. There is just too little evidence to prove whether or not it existed. But so far, I think puertasaurus was the heaviest.
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Godzillasaurus
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brolyeuphyfusion
Aug 1 2012, 06:38 PM
Jinfengopteryx
Aug 1 2012, 06:16 PM
brolyeuphyfusion
Aug 1 2012, 03:52 PM
I could write a 999,999 page essay on why Jurassic sauropods should be the largest[/color]
Do it, if you want to convince somebody.
Jurassic sauropods have virtually no competitors, but Cretaceous sauropods face heavy competition from ornithopods. The abundance of huge sauropods in the Jurassic would force theropods to evolve larger sizes, which causes the sauropods to grow even larger to avoid predation, thus causing an evolutionary size growth loop in the Jurassic.

Also, the low-nutrient food in the Jurassic period necessitated a larger digestive tract, so the sauropods that lived in that time needed to grow larger to accommodate a larger digestive system. The Cretaceous period did not necessitate such digestive systems.

Most Jurassic theropods hunted in packs, which needed even larger size to deter or beat them.

Many Cretaceous sauropods had armor, therefore not needing to be so large, but Jurassic sauropods did not, so they needed greater size to compensate.
Why did only a few contenders for the largest dinosaur exist in the Jurassic? Most of them lived in the Cretaceous. Since during the Cretaceous, they had to face predators like carcharodontosaurus and giganotosaurus, which were much larger than any Jurassic predator.
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SpinoInWonderland
The madness has come back...
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Godzillaman
Aug 1 2012, 10:45 PM
brolyeuphyfusion
Aug 1 2012, 06:38 PM
Jinfengopteryx
Aug 1 2012, 06:16 PM
brolyeuphyfusion
Aug 1 2012, 03:52 PM
I could write a 999,999 page essay on why Jurassic sauropods should be the largest[/color]
Do it, if you want to convince somebody.
Jurassic sauropods have virtually no competitors, but Cretaceous sauropods face heavy competition from ornithopods. The abundance of huge sauropods in the Jurassic would force theropods to evolve larger sizes, which causes the sauropods to grow even larger to avoid predation, thus causing an evolutionary size growth loop in the Jurassic.

Also, the low-nutrient food in the Jurassic period necessitated a larger digestive tract, so the sauropods that lived in that time needed to grow larger to accommodate a larger digestive system. The Cretaceous period did not necessitate such digestive systems.

Most Jurassic theropods hunted in packs, which needed even larger size to deter or beat them.

Many Cretaceous sauropods had armor, therefore not needing to be so large, but Jurassic sauropods did not, so they needed greater size to compensate.
Why did only a few contenders for the largest dinosaur exist in the Jurassic? Most of them lived in the Cretaceous. Since during the Cretaceous, they had to face predators like carcharodontosaurus and giganotosaurus, which were much larger than any Jurassic predator.
Carcharodontosaurus and Giganotosaurus? Das Monster von Minden says hi...

Also note that the number of known dinosaurs is dwarfed by the total number of dinosaurs that ever existed, so you can't use the number of contenders per period to support your side. Add that to the fact that the number of Jurassic dinosaurs known is much less than the number of known Cretaceous dinosaurs, and it becomes likely that the largest theropod is still undiscovered and lived in the Jurassic. Same goes for the largest sauropod.
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Godzillasaurus
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brolyeuphyfusion
Aug 1 2012, 11:06 PM
Godzillaman
Aug 1 2012, 10:45 PM
brolyeuphyfusion
Aug 1 2012, 06:38 PM
Jinfengopteryx
Aug 1 2012, 06:16 PM
brolyeuphyfusion
Aug 1 2012, 03:52 PM
I could write a 999,999 page essay on why Jurassic sauropods should be the largest[/color]
Do it, if you want to convince somebody.
Jurassic sauropods have virtually no competitors, but Cretaceous sauropods face heavy competition from ornithopods. The abundance of huge sauropods in the Jurassic would force theropods to evolve larger sizes, which causes the sauropods to grow even larger to avoid predation, thus causing an evolutionary size growth loop in the Jurassic.

Also, the low-nutrient food in the Jurassic period necessitated a larger digestive tract, so the sauropods that lived in that time needed to grow larger to accommodate a larger digestive system. The Cretaceous period did not necessitate such digestive systems.

Most Jurassic theropods hunted in packs, which needed even larger size to deter or beat them.

Many Cretaceous sauropods had armor, therefore not needing to be so large, but Jurassic sauropods did not, so they needed greater size to compensate.
Why did only a few contenders for the largest dinosaur exist in the Jurassic? Most of them lived in the Cretaceous. Since during the Cretaceous, they had to face predators like carcharodontosaurus and giganotosaurus, which were much larger than any Jurassic predator.
Carcharodontosaurus and Giganotosaurus? Das Monster von Minden says hi...

Also note that the number of known dinosaurs is dwarfed by the total number of dinosaurs that ever existed, so you can't use the number of contenders per period to support your side. Add that to the fact that the number of Jurassic dinosaurs known is much less than the number of known Cretaceous dinosaurs, and it becomes likely that the largest theropod is still undiscovered and lived in the Jurassic. Same goes for the largest sauropod.
How is it likely? Most of the largest dinosaurs existed in the Cretaceous period.
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Jinfengopteryx
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brolyeuphyfusion
Aug 1 2012, 11:06 PM
Das Monster von Minden says hi...
Evidence for Das Monster von Minden, not just being a fisher?
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theropod
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Well, Saurophaganax, Torvosaurus and the Monster of Minden were similar to Giganotosaurus and Carcharodontosaurus in size actually. I would bet on saurophaganax having grown to much larger sizes than the largest of the four specimens we have (OMNH 1935), basing on those european footprints, MoM and the abundance of sauropods. But we really can´t state anything like "the largest lived in the **", because we know too little of the whole system. For now, Puertasaurus remains the largest.

There aren´t less contenders from the Jurassic. We have amphicoelias, turiasaurus and breviparopus, and also some for the "longest dinosaur"-title. from the cretaceous we only have Puertasaurus, (possibly) Alamosaurus and Bruhathkayosaurus, which is likely to be a hoax.
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theropod
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Jinfengopteryx
Aug 2 2012, 12:49 AM
brolyeuphyfusion
Aug 1 2012, 11:06 PM
Das Monster von Minden says hi...
Evidence for Das Monster von Minden, not just being a fisher?
A fisher? you mean a piscivore? what indicates that? From what I heard it consists of two animals of very different size, one of which was said to be an allosaur and the other one a megalosaur. The only other info we have is that one rib was 1,5 times the one of allosaurus, and that the smaller one was considered a megalosaur in the dinosaur mailing list, being said to measure 7-8m. so it remains an allosaur probably around 15m long, if the rib´s measurement is correct. That somehow fits the enourmous sauropod Turiasaurus that lived in europe as well. in the case of an allosaur, Saurophaganax comes to mind as the closest in size. As long as there is no further info about it, I´ll consider it to be saurophaganax.

A theropod that size in the jurassic seems highly probably to me, so no need to try finding any reason to be able to debunk it. Therefore a possibly even greater size than OMNH 1935 for S. maximus seems possible.
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Jinfengopteryx
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Well, it had not much more to eat, so it probably ate fish or Pliosaurs. Why it shouldn't?
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theropod
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Dead ones if they were there, and fish if it could catch them. But what indicates an allosaur to be a fish eater?
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