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Felids vs Canids at parity, who's stronger?; Who's stronger and most capable in a fight at parity?
Topic Started: Jul 31 2012, 11:41 AM (44,638 Views)
Kaszilla
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I always thought cats were stronger at parity because cougars kill wolves and not vice versa, at least I'm not aware of wolves killing cougars. Anyway, do you think a housecat could put up a good fight against a wolf at parity or how about a wolf against a tiger at parity. I know that's unrealistic but you get the point.

Thanks for the input. :)


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Edited by Kaszilla, Jul 31 2012, 11:49 AM.
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Black Ice
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Depends on the species and weight ranges
For instance a cougar or pantherine(lion,tiger,leopard,jaguar)arent actually stronger but more robust and flexible therefore they can use their strength far more than canids who lack grappling abilities and are smaller
However with "small cats" such as caracals servalse bobcats lynx etc. the dog happens to be more robust and powerful meaning the cat cant overpower it in a fight ex. Bobcats cant overpower coyotes while puma and pantherines can easily overpower a wolf.
So in the small cat vs dog the dog will usually win while the reverse is said for big cat vs dog
Which is why coyotes tend to come out on top over bobcats while cougars come out on top over wolves
Hope that helps!
Edited by Black Ice, Jul 31 2012, 12:17 PM.
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Kaszilla
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Starkiller
Jul 31 2012, 12:03 PM
Depends on the species and weight ranges
For instance a cougar or pantherine(lion,tiger,leopard,jaguar)arent actually stronger but more robust and flexible therefore they can use their strength far more than canids who lack grappling abilities and are smaller
However with "small cats" such as caracals servalse bobcats lynx etc. the dog happens to be more robust and powerful meaning the cat cant overpower it in a fight ex. Bobcats cant overpower coyotes while puma and pantherines can easily overpower a wolf.
So in the small cat vs dog the dog will usually win while the reverse is said for big cat vs dog
Which is why coyotes tend to come out on top over bobcats while cougars come out on top over wolves
Hope that helps!
Thanks ;D
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Neofelis
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This images shows clearly that Pantherines are more robust than Felines and why I would favor Pantherines over an equal sized dog.
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T-Devil
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pantherine cats are probably stronger than most canids
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Black Ice
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I said pantherines would beat dogs fairly quickly
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Gato Gordo
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Starkiller: you say that big felines (pumas) are "more robust" but "not stronger" than same weight wolves. You say that robustness is related to flexibility. Do you mean that wolves are as strong as pumas because both can pull/push same weights, whereas wolves are less "robust" because pumas can better direct their exerted force? Do you have any hard evidence to suggest that wolves are as strong as same weight pumas?

If so, I think that you are confusing some concepts. Or maybe I misread you, so please explain how you differentiate "strong" and "robust".

IMO, robustness is a different thing from flexibility and grappling (though flexibility and grappling could cause an animal to be more robust). Rather, robustness is a morphological (ie bones and muscles) potential to exert and resist strength, whereas strength is not a capacity or a potential, but an actually performed activity that is measured in accelerating a given mass (say 100 kg) from rest (zero speed) to a given speed. Power is how fast strength is exerted (moving 100 kg in 10 seconds is not the same as doing it in 1 hour). Of course, there is a strong correlation between robustness and strength, but IMO it is not easily related to being grapplers or cursorials. For example, there can be robust predators that are poor grapplers and good grapplers that are not robust.

Finally, there is variation among "small" cats and "small" canids. Ocelotes and fishing cats are quite robust felines. I would say that a 15 kg ocelote is more robust and much stronger than a 15 kg coyote or 15 kg domestic dogs of almost any breed, and an 8 kg fishing cat or golden cat is much stronger than an 8 kg fox or dog. Likewise, a 5 kg bush dog will excel over any feline or canid of that size, but foxes will be weaker than all cats of their size, perhaps even domestic cats. In the range around (20 kg), a clouded leopard is likely more robust than any predator of its weight (dogs, wolverines or wild canids).

In the large weight league (over 60 kg), felines excel over same weight canides, but cheetahs are the exception. Extremely heavy dogs (100 kg) may be healthy, but they are too slow and somehow "unnatural" gentle giants (dogs of this size were bred for size). As a contrast, a 100 kg puma or leopard may be a giant specimen, but it is fully agile and functional, and specimens of this size have been found in nature.

The interesting range is perhaps the mid range 30-60. Most alpha wolves are in this weight range, and so are the strongest dogs (relative to their weight): some pit bulls, dogos, alanos, etc, while pumas and leopards of these weights are either females or young specimens. In this weight IMO, felines and canides go 50/50 in strength, though I would still favor more often than not a feline in a fight because strength is not everything that counts (weaponry, capacity to kill, agility, motivation, etc must also be taken into consideration).
Edited by Gato Gordo, Jul 31 2012, 06:27 PM.
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Black Ice
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No if you read the robusticity thread you will know what I was trying to say.

Taipan even said it himself
"i have a hard time believing a caracal or lynx can overpower a coyote"
Ursus also posted....just read the thread youll know what I mean
http://carnivoraforum.com/topic/9333928/1/
A coyote is significantly more robust than a fisher cat or etc. which is why coyotes dominate in fight to the deaths with bobcats
Foxes and houscats etc
Edited by Black Ice, Jul 31 2012, 06:34 PM.
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kuri
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i think felids are stronger.
Why?

Felids have much more movements than canids.
They
- jump
- Climp
- wrestle
- punch

Movements which requires more and stronger muscles.

If i never use my arms, i will not get bigger and stronger arms.
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Black Ice
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Did you even read the thread?
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Black Ice
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From ursus data
"cursorial animals~those specified for running~are probably not weak compared to other animals
What they give up is flexibility
What does this mean for wrestling with the forelimbs?
Animals that use their limbs to wrestle are unlikely to have stronger limbs than strong but inflexible animals~likely making restraining difficult

Cats dont have stronger limbs only more developed ones
Edited by Black Ice, Jul 31 2012, 07:10 PM.
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kuri
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a animal which mainly runs, has only good muscles for running.
e.g. why should a wolf have strong muscles for climbing when he doesn't climb?
A mole lost his eyesight, because he don't need it.
The aim of the nature is always to save energy.
Muscles/senses/body parts with no use, are always sorted out.

A bear is very strong, because he has also a high range of body movements.
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Black Ice
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Oh my god instead of making useless incorrect assumptions read the thread that I linked and look at the data canidae got from ursus
You clearly dont understand how cats and dogs limbs work
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Jinfengopteryx
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Aspiring paleontologist, science enthusiast and armchair speculative fiction/evolution writer
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Starkiller
Jul 31 2012, 02:23 PM
I said pantherines would beat dogs fairly quickly
Yes, but you have to bring them at the same size.
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Black Ice
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Yea and the panthrine would win. you cant scale a wolf up to a tigers size because it would actually get weaker while scaling a cat down would make it much stronger
Its like this
Scale a animal up~it gets weaker and possibly will die
Vice versa is said when scaling down
Its all cause of the square cube law
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