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| Felids vs Canids at parity, who's stronger?; Who's stronger and most capable in a fight at parity? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 31 2012, 11:41 AM (44,643 Views) | |
| FelinePowah | Jun 25 2013, 07:12 AM Post #361 |
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Pussy Lover
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So a serval has a larger muscle mass/body mass then a clouded leopard?
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| Ursus arctos | Jun 25 2013, 07:44 AM Post #362 |
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Autotrophic Organism
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Where is the data? Source? I would not be surprised. But actual data is needed to make such claims.
I would have to see actual data, but I think this may be slightly more likely than not-for certain forelimb muscles. I would like to see what the relationship may be between the size of various muscles and predatory behavior in felids. EDIT: Felids do have larger muscle mass/body mass than canids on average, unless I am mistaken. But size varies from muscle to muscle. Edited by Ursus arctos, Jun 25 2013, 07:58 AM.
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| Vivec | Jun 25 2013, 08:04 AM Post #363 |
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Canid and snake enthusiast.
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![]() Maybe not the Jaguar, but the tricep muscle study here relates to greater ability to take down prey. EDIT: I'm actually afraid of a reply I just took the study from the photobucket site and seen "tricep study", can't put up an argument with the more educated posters
Edited by Vivec, Jun 25 2013, 08:16 AM.
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| Ursus arctos | Jun 25 2013, 08:15 AM Post #364 |
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Autotrophic Organism
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When I make the thread, I will talk about the olecranon index at length. Reality may not be as you expect-certainly wasn't as many of the authors of these various papers ;). But, yes, the OI does indicate ability to take down prey, and yes, it does favour the jaguar. How muscle morphology relates to ability to take down prey, however, is what I think isn't that understood. And I think many may for this reason have wrong ideas about muscle morphology. When it comes to judging the abilities of animals, by far the best way to do it is to look at what they do. Big cats take down large prey-regularly. They must be good at it. What morphological features allow an animal to wrestle down big prey effectively? The best way to figure that out is to ask "what are the morphological features the big cats have?" For example: OI (values from the table you just posted) was found to be higher in cats taking relatively larger prey. If big cats are lacking in some area, that area must not be all that important for taking large prey. It could still be important, but perhaps less so than other factors. |
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| Vivec | Jun 25 2013, 08:20 AM Post #365 |
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Canid and snake enthusiast.
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I do believe a Canid would use its jaws to bring down prey, but the index does state tricep muscle percentage, perhaps it's the force derived from the animals legs that help. (or the synovial bursa) |
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| Ursus arctos | Jun 25 2013, 08:30 AM Post #366 |
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Autotrophic Organism
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Sorry, I should have added "in the manner that they do" to the comments about taking large prey. Wolves do of course also take very large prey relative to their body size, but have values for many of these indices suggesting they'd do a very poor job wrestling prey down like a cat. They are effective, however, at the method they use. OI = olecranon index = olecranon process length/ functional ulna length = olecranon process length/ (ulna length - olecranon process length) The olecranon process is the part of the ulna extending past the elbow joint. The triceps inserts on it. The longer the olecranon, the greater the torque the triceps will produce around the elbow joint. The shorter the functional ulna length, the greater the out-force the limb will produce for a given torque. Thus, the longer the olecranon process relative to the functional ulna length, the greater the force an animal will produce - if the triceps are identical. To say that the triceps aren't necessarily identical is an understatement. Also, some other functional changes would result. Which I can get into if readers are interested. Edited by Ursus arctos, Jun 25 2013, 08:31 AM.
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| Vivec | Jun 25 2013, 08:41 AM Post #367 |
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Canid and snake enthusiast.
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I see, thanks. So would the Clouded Leopard, for example produce greater force than say a Cheetah per pound thanks to it's shorter ulna, or would the width of the ulna be more significant towards the total force output? |
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| Ursus arctos | Jun 25 2013, 08:47 AM Post #368 |
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Autotrophic Organism
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Width of long bones is generally highly correlated with body mass. So a thicker ulna may mean an animal is heavier (and therefore probably has larger muscles). The clouded leopard's relatively shorter ulna (compared to a cheetah) does probably mean that its triceps can produce more force for its size than a cheetah's. |
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| Ursus arctos | Jun 25 2013, 04:13 PM Post #369 |
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Autotrophic Organism
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See this thread for info! If you have any questions, please ask! |
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| FelinePowah | Jun 26 2013, 03:50 AM Post #370 |
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Pussy Lover
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So a cheetah has more muscle to body weight then a leopard?? I mean fair enough cheetahs have powerful muscles to help them sprint....but so do leopards...its all the other adaptions that cheetah have that make them so fast... you have shown that by saying that grey hounds have larger muscles then cheetah but are no where close to the cats speed. I cant believe that aboreal animals would have so little muscle compared to savannah animals..ie cheetah vs leopard. |
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| Animal King | Jun 26 2013, 12:39 PM Post #371 |
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Heterotrophic Organism
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I definitely agree with you hyena. |
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| kingkazma | Mar 15 2014, 04:14 AM Post #372 |
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Apex Predator
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Wolves do climb though, and dogs. |
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| The All-seeing Night | Mar 15 2014, 04:39 AM Post #373 |
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You are without honor
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Felids are usually stringer at parity. No canid can match the power of lions, tigers, leopards, and jaguars. The pitbull and mastiff are stronger than cheetah. The thing is, dogs don't need as heavily muscled limbs, they don't have to wrestle down prey. |
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| kuri | Mar 15 2014, 04:43 AM Post #374 |
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Omnivore
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running up a steep hill or a tree with a big branch (flat angle) is not climbing. |
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| kingkazma | Mar 15 2014, 04:56 AM Post #375 |
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Apex Predator
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They can still climb. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dadV4DCO_0g ![]() http://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=yGMlXHY3lq0 THIS IS A BULLDOG. Imagine what a new guinea singing dog can do. Look at the dingo and new guinea singing dog http://gomestic.com/pets/five-dogs-that-are-stranger-than-fiction/ ![]() Though not as well as any feline. |
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