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Felids vs Canids at parity, who's stronger?; Who's stronger and most capable in a fight at parity?
Topic Started: Jul 31 2012, 11:41 AM (44,640 Views)
kuri
Omnivore
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cats have a greater range of movements.
They climb, they use their fore limbs more than a canid. This requires more muscle mass.
E.g. a leopard dragging a 100kg prey up a tree requires for this task a lot of muscle mass and very big neck muscles.
This is why any big dog wouldn't have a change against a similar sized cat (cougar/leopard) in terms of raw muscle power and fighting power.
On the basis of various examples we know this.
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Molosser
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We have accounts of wolves pulling down massive bovines, as well as many molossers pulling multi-ton objects, I have posted a video of a pitbull destroying the steel bumper of a police car, that's more impressive than a 75 kg leopard pulling a 100 kg prey up a tree. I bet if canids were capable climbers many would be able to pull a 100 kg dead animal up a tree.
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Bandog
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Different circumstances. Leopards are very powerful but so are large molossers.
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Molosser
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I agree, I know that leopards are very powerful animals, and pulling a 100 kg carcass up a tree isn't a walk in the park.. But let's not overestimate it. I have met at least 10 people who think leopards can pull something 3-4 times their weight up a tree. if we're talking about a 70 kg leopard that'd be a 210 - 280 kg carcass.. That's just silly
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kuri
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Molosser
Nov 21 2014, 08:17 PM
I agree, I know that leopards are very powerful animals, and pulling a 100 kg carcass up a tree isn't a walk in the park.. But let's not overestimate it. I have met at least 10 people who think leopards can pull something 3-4 times their weight up a tree. if we're talking about a 70 kg leopard that'd be a 210 - 280 kg carcass.. That's just silly
i read..2 times their weight.
Still 1 times their weight would be amazing..more than every human can do.
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Full Throttle
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FelinePowah
Nov 21 2014, 03:53 PM
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Nov 21 2014, 10:55 AM
15 kg and under canids hold a clear advantage.

And what might that be???
You need only look at an Earthdog and what it's capable of to see it would prevail over most cats in it's weight range.

Felids at this size couldn't hope to effectively tackle a badger like a terrier can, there bones and teeth are designed for small prey.
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Hatzegopteryx
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Useless debate, we're talking about two entire families that vary really widely.
Molosser
Nov 21 2014, 08:17 PM
I agree, I know that leopards are very powerful animals, and pulling a 100 kg carcass up a tree isn't a walk in the park.. But let's not overestimate it. I have met at least 10 people who think leopards can pull something 3-4 times their weight up a tree. if we're talking about a 70 kg leopard that'd be a 210 - 280 kg carcass.. That's just silly
Let's see them doing it without thumbs.
Edited by Hatzegopteryx, Nov 22 2014, 12:19 AM.
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ManEater
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Posted Image

from: http://carnivoraforum.com/topic/10075185/1/
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Nordred
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A leopard never can pull a eland carcass to a tree even cant with a male wildebeest...

I think leopards can pull up to a tree 1,5 of his own weight.
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RaimundoPedrosa
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Leopards actually can pull elands up tress. Also, pulling something that much larger than you UP A TREE is more impressive than a wolf dragging a bovine across flat land. Climbing alone takes a lot of strength that people don't seem to realize (seriously, just try a standard color coded rock climb and you'll see what I'm talking about), but climbing with extra weight that EXCEEDS YOUR OWN WEIGHT?! That's something that's truly unmatched by any canids and extremely noteworthy.

And cougars have forearms strong enough to freaking snap a large moose, which no wolf can ever individually do; it takes a whole PACK of wolves to pull off what a cougar can individually do.

Also, as for this topic, it depends on what kind of strength you're talking about.

Bite force/teeth? It's equal at parity. A leopard has around the same bite as the largest dogs and smaller leopards, like snow leopards, cape leopards, amur leopards, etc., have bite forces around the same level as wolves. Cats have an instinct to go straight for the jugular and can crush windpipe, whereas dogs also have teeth that can crush the windpipes.

In terms of bite force, at parity, canines and felines are evenly matched. However, hyenas and tasmanian devils completely outmatch BOTH dogs AND cats in terms of bite power pound for pound; hyenas have bites comparable to that of lions and tigers, while having a massive size disadvantage, so if we're going strictly by bite and teeth, hyenas beat both in pure bite force pound for pound.

In terms of speed? Well, cats have the higher speed, whereas dogs have the stamina, so that advantage is even.

Forelimb use? Felines, hands down. Cats completely outmatch dogs here. There is no question whatsoever. As someone else pointed out, dogs cannot pull prey up their tree, because they do NOT have strong forelimbs to do so. This is why dogs cannot match cats at parity; all that dogs have going for them are the teeth, an advantage that cats also have. But in terms of effectively killing their prey, dogs cannot prey larger than them for this reason. Individually, they have to go for smaller prey, because all that they have are their powerful teeth. Cats, on the other hands, have very functional forelimbs that they use to assist them. This is a severe disadvantage against dogs.

Claws? Again, hands down, this goes to the cats. Not only can they ACTUALLY USE their claws since their forelimbs are functional, but they can ACTUALLY SLICE with those claws. Their claws are SHARPER and RETRACTABLE, unlike those of dogs, which are blunt due to constant contact with the ground... and not functional lol.

Agility? Not even a question, cats all the way. Cats can kill prey much larger than themselves by outmaneuvering it, jumping on its back, and getting the jugular. This is how cougars kill elks, leopards kill elands, lions kill buffalos and giraffes, jaguars kill bulls and crocodiles, and tigers kill guars and water buffalos.

So, if we're talking just bite and speed, then cats and dogs are equal... but every other advantage, cats hands down. Cats have limbs that allow them extremely impressive feats like climbing with carrying twice their weight up a tree. This is simply not matched by any dogs, because they do not have the claws and forelimbs to use for this.

So, at parity, there's no doubt that bears and cats have dogs completely outmatched due to their greater far greater forelimb flexibility.

Cat 10/10 at parity.
kuri
Nov 21 2014, 11:52 PM
Molosser
Nov 21 2014, 08:17 PM
I agree, I know that leopards are very powerful animals, and pulling a 100 kg carcass up a tree isn't a walk in the park.. But let's not overestimate it. I have met at least 10 people who think leopards can pull something 3-4 times their weight up a tree. if we're talking about a 70 kg leopard that'd be a 210 - 280 kg carcass.. That's just silly
i read..2 times their weight.
Still 1 times their weight would be amazing..more than every human can do.
EXACTLY! Climbing at ALL takes strength, but climbing with additional weight is a huge feat. Climbing with additional baggage that's equal to YOUR WEIGHT? That's just WOW! That's astonishing and truly worthy of praise and note. There's no way that a feat like that can be overlooked at all. No walk in the park at all. People don't realize that dragging or carrying something is entirely different from dragging or carrying that thing UP A TREE! Up a TREE is highly impressive and is by no means a feat that deserves to be overlooked. Climbing with just your own weight is already impressive, but with additional weight is remarkable, and with your own weight is mind boggling.

Climbing with MORE WEIGHT, especially TWICE your weight... is just insane, dumbfounding, ridiculous, and ineffable.
Hatzegopteryx
Nov 22 2014, 12:16 AM
Useless debate, we're talking about two entire families that vary really widely.
Molosser
Nov 21 2014, 08:17 PM
I agree, I know that leopards are very powerful animals, and pulling a 100 kg carcass up a tree isn't a walk in the park.. But let's not overestimate it. I have met at least 10 people who think leopards can pull something 3-4 times their weight up a tree. if we're talking about a 70 kg leopard that'd be a 210 - 280 kg carcass.. That's just silly
Let's see them doing it without thumbs.
Lol leopards don't have opposable thumbs, first of all. Second, that's exactly the thing here; leopards HAVE the advantage of grappling, claws, and forelimbs, which dogs don't, and this is not an advantage that should be overlooked as unfair; it's the reason WHY leopards are far deadlier than any dog on the planet, whatsoever, including the dogs that match and exceed the leopard's weight.
Molosser
Nov 21 2014, 05:46 PM
I bet if canids were capable climbers many would be able to pull a 100 kg dead animal up a tree.
But they're not... nor are they capable grapplers... nor do they have razor sharp, refined, retractable claws... and these disadvantages are the exact reason why they cannot match a cat in strength, hunting, deadliness, and agility at parity. And why they would ultimately get demolished.
Edited by RaimundoPedrosa, Jun 5 2015, 03:15 AM.
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FelinePowah
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Nov 22 2014, 12:01 AM
FelinePowah
Nov 21 2014, 03:53 PM
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Nov 21 2014, 10:55 AM
15 kg and under canids hold a clear advantage.

And what might that be???
You need only look at an Earthdog and what it's capable of to see it would prevail over most cats in it's weight range.

Felids at this size couldn't hope to effectively tackle a badger like a terrier can, there bones and teeth are designed for small prey.
A terrier at parity weight vs a badger would end up dead....sorry.
Molosser
Nov 21 2014, 05:46 PM
I bet if canids were capable climbers many would be able to pull a 100 kg dead animal up a tree.
So you mean change the dog into a cat :P
Edited by FelinePowah, Jun 5 2015, 04:15 AM.
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Full Throttle
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"dogs cannot prey larger than them for this reason. Individually, they have to go for smaller prey"

Wrong:

Posted Image

"Of the 21 wolf-killed moose, 4 were killed by the adult male alone."

http://www.de5stora.com/illustrationer/fil_20041123132025.pdf

Posted Image

"Responding officers couldn’t believe their eyes, said Macomb County Sheriff Mark Hackel. A 50-60 pound dog had a 150-pound doe pinned to the ground in a Macomb Township neighborhood near North Avenue and Hall Road (M-59).

When one of the officers called the dog, he came. He even sat on command."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2348546/posts

Posted Image


"unlike those of dogs, which are blunt due to constant contact with the ground... and not functional lol"

That aspect of canine anatomy is "not functional" because you say so? I guess you've never herd of cleats?

"Cat 10/10 at parity."

Wrong:

Posted Image


P.S: If your a former jilted member come to, ahem, "troll" the boards, please make your reply as grammatically correct as your lexicon will allow and for goodness sake do not be afraid to hurl as many slurs and baseless ad hominem attacks as you see fit, I've been severely disappointed by the level of trolling we've had here lately.
FelinePowah
Jun 5 2015, 04:13 AM
Full Throttle
Nov 22 2014, 12:01 AM
FelinePowah
Nov 21 2014, 03:53 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
You need only look at an Earthdog and what it's capable of to see it would prevail over most cats in it's weight range.

Felids at this size couldn't hope to effectively tackle a badger like a terrier can, there bones and teeth are designed for small prey.
A terrier at parity weight vs a badger would end up dead....sorry.
Molosser
Nov 21 2014, 05:46 PM
I bet if canids were capable climbers many would be able to pull a 100 kg dead animal up a tree.
So you mean change the dog into a cat :P
Any evidence to support this statement?
Edited by Taipan, Jun 5 2015, 05:37 PM.
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Inhumanum Rapax
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Jun 5 2015, 04:19 AM
"dogs cannot prey larger than them for this reason. Individually, they have to go for smaller prey"

Wrong:

Posted Image

"Of the 21 wolf-killed moose, 4 were killed by the adult male alone."

http://www.de5stora.com/illustrationer/fil_20041123132025.pdf

Posted Image

"Responding officers couldn’t believe their eyes, said Macomb County Sheriff Mark Hackel. A 50-60 pound dog had a 150-pound doe pinned to the ground in a Macomb Township neighborhood near North Avenue and Hall Road (M-59).

When one of the officers called the dog, he came. He even sat on command."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2348546/posts

Posted Image


"unlike those of dogs, which are blunt due to constant contact with the ground... and not functional lol"

That aspect of canine anatomy is "not functional" because you say so? I guess you've never herd of cleats?

"Cat 10/10 at parity."

Wrong:

Posted Image

Posted Image

"21#lb Bobcat killed single handedly by 19# Jagd".

P.S: If your a former jilted member come to, ahem, "troll" the boards, please make your reply as grammatically correct as your lexicon will allow and for goodness sake do not be afraid to hurl as many slurs and baseless ad hominem attacks as you see fit, I've been severely disappointed by the level of trolling we've had here lately.
FelinePowah
Jun 5 2015, 04:13 AM
Full Throttle
Nov 22 2014, 12:01 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
A terrier at parity weight vs a badger would end up dead....sorry.
Molosser
Nov 21 2014, 05:46 PM
I bet if canids were capable climbers many would be able to pull a 100 kg dead animal up a tree.
So you mean change the dog into a cat :P
Any evidence to support this statement?
I agree with your post FT but wasn't it a 21# terrier killing a 19# bobcat in the original account?
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Full Throttle
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@Rapax, indeed i was, I copy and pasted on a touchscreen :P I'll adjust it now.
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Inhumanum Rapax
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Jun 5 2015, 04:33 AM
@Rapax, indeed i was, I copy and pasted on a touchscreen :P I'll adjust it now.
Okay, and I wouldn't call raimundo a troll just yet, he just seems very misinformed like vivec was. There's always a chance that he'll learn a bit more about animals, mellow out, and become a respected member.
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